Helston Revisited

[Andy Keane]

Having put the cows in the top field I had hoped it would look less bare but the fence line still looks very naked. However the photos I have of this fence at that time show it to be devoid of any bushes or hedging. Its one of the places where what is correct does not look quite right on my model:

[MrWolf]

That's something that I have noticed when trying to model what is visible.

 

Some slightly longer grass along the bottom of the fence line will work.

 

The bottom run of wire is only around 6" above ground, so will discourage grazing cattle from cropping the grass as low as the rest of the field.

On the rail side, the same wire is going to deflect the lengthmen's scythe too.

 

[37Oban]

11 hours ago, Pete Haitch said:

I'm collecting livestock for a Cornish layout, but in a bit of an erratic manner. Time to organise my thinking and notes which I'm putting here should they be of any use to you. Love your layout, Pete.

 

Livestock change a lot over time as particular traits become more or less popular; e.g., sizes, conformation or colour/markings.  Its worth looking at pictures from the area you are modelling for the period of interest.  The Royal Cornwall Museum, and one or two smaller ones, have collections from which some examples are available on-line. Historic pictures from ag shows and of marts can be found on-line. Newspaper reports of Royal Cornwall show results and weekly market fatstock prices can help build a picture of breeds present in the area at a particular time.
 

Cattle for Polhelyk
 

Jersey I’m going to buy some HO or possibly 3mm scale models of dairy type cattle to model these.  I remember Jerseys that were almost black, and others that were very light, so quite a lot of variation.
 

Guernsey At different times the trend has been to breed these to encourage an almost tan all-over look but, I think in the 30s then had far more white on them – more like the patterning of an Ayrshire or red and white Friesian.
 

Alderney At one time all Channel Island cattle were generically referred to as Alderneys, however, there was a separate Alderney Breed. There were the odd few in Cornwall but the entire breed became extinct during 2nd World War.  There is a very faded old picture on the web somewhere that shows a herd in Cornwall of 10 or 12 cows – all Channel Island including, I believe, an Alderney. These breeds produce milk with high levels of butterfat ideal for scald cream etc.
 

Cornish Black Cattle The map showing the distribution of cattle in the UK by colour circa 1750, shows the West/Central Cornish herd, along with West Wales and most of Scotland, to be predominantly black. Whilst there are some differences certainly the Welsh and Cornish populations are probably derived from the same original population. By the start of the 20th Century the Cornish and Welsh herds effectively became interbred and merged and we now only have the Welsh Black breed.

https://imagearchive.royalcornwallmuseum.org.uk/agriculture/st-just-penwith/women-milking-cows-field-st-just-penwith-19287693.html

https://imagearchive.royalcornwallmuseum.org.uk/places/sennen/sennen-churchtown-cornwall-1903-11656705.html
 

South Devon A large dual-purpose breed some of which migrated into Cornwall but not sure how many reached the Lizard. 60+ years ago I milked a few of these that matched the Friesians but with better milk quality. I’ve a couple of these in my model herd to add a bit of period correct variety.
 

Devon In these modern times also known as Ruby Red Devon. When Julius Ceasar visited these shores, he noted that in Southern England there was a population of scrawny red cattle. This was probably part of the original population from which the Devon and other breeds such as the Lincoln Red, Red Poll, Sussex etc were developed. I’m using HO scale models for these for further size and colour difference.
 

Gloucester/Glamorgan There is a picture from 1920/30s of a farmer (I think in Penzance) showing a Gloucester with lovely finchback marking. These may be black and white but totally different marking to other b&w breeds, giving more variety and will no doubt provoke comments about there being no black and white cattle in the UK before the 2nd World War.  They are a triple purpose breed so I’m modelling a couple of yoke to give a span pulling an ox cart.  For proper Double Gloucester, Dorset Blue Vinney and Wiltshire Loaf cheeses,  Gloucester milk should be used.
 

Colling/Beef Shorthorn and Northern Dairy Shorthorn Got everywhere including Cornwall- probably with good reason.  Although I can take or leave them, I will include some to add further variety. @JustinDean has produced these rather nice examples

Edit. Sorry, this was meant be a link to the thread, not a hijack of the picture.

Longhorn – Longhorn Type This is too much to resist! https://imagearchive.royalcornwallmuseum.org.uk/agriculture/oxen-work-mevagissey-cornwall-1892-12573087.html I certainly will have some more traditionally marked Longhorns – I was always amazed at how well they managed their horns.

 

Normande Let me state this - Cornish mariners are not pirates. There is a tale that many decades ago a Cornish fishing boat had to run ahead of a storm and ended up finding shelter in a port in Normandy. They were less than impressed with the welcome they received so found their own entertainment. As a result, next morning when they left for the voyage home there was, allegedly, a Normande calf on board. Supposedly it had spotty black markings similar to a Dalmatian dog.  

 

Pigs, Sheep, Knockers and Buccas to follow

Hi,

 

it's good to see some-one taking the time and care to model the correct period cattle rather than just using generic breeds such as friesians!

 

Many modellers seem to forget that each area in the UK had their own breeds of cattle, suited to that particular environment, and not just cattle but sheep, pigs and horses!  In my area the traditional breeds were Red Poll cattle, long wool sheep and curly coat pigs!  Don't see many of the sheep and pigs nowadays, although there are a few herds of the cattle.

 

Looking forwards to seeing your other livestock!

 

Roja

[Andy Keane]

I certainly will avoid plain pink pigs at Helston!

[Andy Keane]

7 hours ago, MrWolf said:

That's something that I have noticed when trying to model what is visible.

 

Some slightly longer grass along the bottom of the fence line will work.

 

The bottom run of wire is only around 6" above ground, so will discourage grazing cattle from cropping the grass as low as the rest of the field.

On the rail side, the same wire is going to deflect the lengthmen's scythe too.

 

Yes I think some grass around the fence line is needed - its quite tricky to do though without getting stuff stuck to the fence itself.

[Pete Haitch]

2 hours ago, 37Oban said:

  In my area the traditional breeds were Red Poll cattle, long wool sheep and curly coat pigs!  Don't see many of the sheep and pigs nowadays, although there are a few herds of the cattle.

 

When I was last in Hungary, I was reading about a Curly Coat  winning the Mangalitza class at the big Budapest show in, IIRC, in the 1920s. I think many Curly Coats ended up in Europe and the genome became mixed into the Manga genetics. I think the enthusiasts who talked about studying cc pictures from the 50/60', to establish a 'type'; and then import Mangalitzas with a matching phenotype to restart the cc breed had a case - but this far away from 1972, perhaps less so. A dark year when the Dorset Gold Tip, Cumberland, Lincolnshire Curley Coat and another native pig breed I cannot recall all became extinct.

 

At least with Red Polls you don't need to worry about broken fragile 3D printed horns scattered about your layout. Something we have the Vikings to thank for I believe.

 

For me, impossible breed/era combinations are as grating as others would find a Ford Cortina as a 1920s wagon load.

[Pete Haitch]

3 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I certainly will avoid plain pink pigs at Helston!

I will respond more fully later, but think Cornish Black (scrawnier version of today's Large Black), Wessex Saddleback, Middle White (I've seen a picture of one with a wonderful scrunched up face in Cornwall). 

[Harlequin]

On 21/08/2024 at 07:58, Andy Keane said:

Yes I think some grass around the fence line is needed - its quite tricky to do though without getting stuff stuck to the fence itself.

I think the fence line appears clean because the grazing animals in the field reach into/through/under the fence as far as they can to pluck the things they like.

 

So, maybe weed growth, not just grass, would ramp up just past the fence line. And plants the animals don't like, such as Ivy, might really take hold outside the fence. Is that Ivy in your photo?

 

The railway staff would have cleared the Ivy away from their land regularly until the decline of the 50s. But before then ivy would still be seen making bridgehead attempts at invasion - maybe climbing the odd fencepost?

 

Edited August 22 by Harlequin

[Andy Keane]

Yes I think a bit of ivy on the odd post is in order, and growth where the animals cannot reach and the embankment is steep, as per the photo.

[Andy Keane]

I have added some more growth on the bank above the stable block which I think helps:

However I need to do something about the base of the cutting where it meets the cess but I am not sure what. Maybe I need some growth down there too?

[Andy Keane]

There is now some vague similarity (the track plan is slightly different between these two images - the GWR mucked around with the throat points a fair bit over the years), but the embankment clearly needs more weeds and general growth:

Edited August 21 by Andy Keane

[Pete Haitch]

 

I have continued with my notes for the livestock I want on my Cornwall layout and  put the next instalment here should you wish to refer to it.

 

Pigs for Polhelyk

 

British Lop / Cornwall Lop / Long White Lop- Eared Pig One my favourites and very much associated with the far South West. Popular throughout the Duchy, but I think they were more concentrated in their heartland around the border between Cornwall and England.

 

Cornish / Large Black A breed I always associate with Cornwall. The Cornish Black is one of several black breeds that have merged into the Large Black. Again, very much a SW and Cornish Pig with lop ears. I would expect the above breeds to have featured well on the Monday p.m. ‘up Chippenham Pig’ to Calne.

 

Wessex Saddleback Now merged with the Essex variant to become the British Saddleback. They appear in photos of the area and, with some of the white breeds mentioned, in this video from 1944 Cornish Valley (1944) (youtube.com)  

 

Middle White A great pig derived from the Large White. There are pictures of them in Cornwall. A great pork breed that, after the period you are modelling, was largely replaced by bacon breeds like the Landrace. Smaller than the other breeds mentioned here.

 

Large White A prick eared good baconer. Some pictures of them in Cornwall but I’m not sure if there were as many as the other two white breeds

I intend to focus on the first four, with possibly one or two Gloucester Old Spots, as this will give me the visual representation I’m seeking.

 

Update to Yesterday’s post.

I’ve consulted George Garrard's “A Description of the Different Varieties of Oxen, common in the British Isles” London circa 1799. The oxen ploughing in the linked picture appear to be Devon ox with the red appearing as black in the picture.

Edited August 21 by Pete Haitch
remove duplicate text

[MrWolf]

14 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Yes I think some grass around the fence line is needed - its quite tricky to do though without getting stuff stuck to the fence itself.

 

The easiest way is to decant a little layering spray into a container and using a brush you don't mind throwing away, paint a little beneath the fence and hit it with the static grass applicator.

It works!

[Andy Keane]

9 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 

The easiest way is to decant a little layering spray into a container and using a brush you don't mind throwing away, paint a little beneath the fence and hit it with the static grass applicator.

It works!

Interesting idea. I have tried painting in a little PVA to do this but it does not work that well.

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Interesting idea. I have tried painting in a little PVA to do this but it does not work that well.

 

I've found that the layering spray is stickier, it may also contain water that the liquid plastic PVA doesn't, so it conducts the static electricity much better.

[Pete Haitch]

On 20/08/2024 at 20:48, Gilbert said:

Are the pigs 00, EM or P4....?

I don't think the pigs cared - the WTT shows that the destination of the train being modelled was Chippenham. For a train of pigs this meant one thing - a trip down the branch to Harris' abattoir and meat processing factory.  Each time I read of this train I cannot help but think about the fact that, at that time, on the Continent there was a regime planning to treat people in the same way. Somehow the fact that the model is of a pig train adds to the awfulness of it.   When I hear some of the current politicians who maintain the rhetoric of Oswald Mosely and Enoch Powell... .  I'll stop here to avoid the realms of politics.  

 

Funny how railway modelling broadens ones areas of knowledge and perhaps helps to give a more holistic view of life.  

[Pete Haitch]

On 20/08/2024 at 12:15, Andy Keane said:

 But there is a hint in that thread that cattle docks had to be adapted to deal with pigs by adding vertical palings to the standard bars - I guess to stop the animals getting out under the bottom bar - does anyone have any knowledge of such changes - I have not seen a photo of this and most of those on the aforementioned thread have been lost in the big image crash.

I have no idea how the cattle dock was readied for pig traffic; but…

 

Pigs don’t try to go through a solid surface which makes them relatively easy to move. As a youngster, two or three of us would move groups of pigs about just by carrying sheets of wavy tin and guiding them. With show pigs we would handle them in the ring with just a board and paddle or stick – see picture for an example.  If we were wanting to load them in a trailer, we would line the sides of the ramp with boards or tin to guide them and so they couldn’t see through the ramp gates.

Based on that, I would have expected the bottom 4ft of thecattle dock to be boarded/lined from the ground up. I’m guessing some tarps could be used, with old sleepers to hold them to the ground.

 

Some of the more inquisitive animals may have stood with their knees on a higher rail to look out, but from that position they’re not escaping.

 

Interested to see how they're 'delivered' to the cattle dock for loading.

 

Pete

[Gilbert]

10 hours ago, Pete Haitch said:

I don't think the pigs cared - the WTT shows that the destination of the train being modelled was Chippenham. For a train of pigs this meant one thing - a trip down the branch to Harris' abattoir and meat processing factory.  Each time I read of this train I cannot help but think about the fact that, at that time, on the Continent there was a regime planning to treat people in the same way. Somehow the fact that the model is of a pig train adds to the awfulness of it.   When I hear some of the current politicians who maintain the rhetoric of Oswald Mosely and Enoch Powell... .  I'll stop here to avoid the realms of politics.  

 

Funny how railway modelling broadens ones areas of knowledge and perhaps helps to give a more holistic view of life.  

I do like a pork pie.....and I try not to think about the real world......

[MrWolf]

1 hour ago, Gilbert said:

I do like a pork pie.....and I try not to think about the real world......

 

So do I, but it's very difficult to find a good one. If you get a rubbish one, it puts you off the idea for ages.

As for the real world, I wonder how much longer the horrors of the past can effectively be used to beat into silence those who weren't even born 85 years ago.

[Andy Keane]

There is some evidence that livestock were actually walked to the goods yard.

Maybe with the aforementioned sheets of tin?

[brumtb]

7 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

There is some evidence that livestock were actually walked to the goods yard.

Maybe with the aforementioned sheets of tin?

Like this?  Digbeth High Street, Birmingham.

[Ponthir28]

My great uncle drove cattle and sheep to the smaller good’s yard in Monmouthshire in the thirties not sure about pigs.

Bought a cattle lorry after the Second World War.

 

[MrWolf]

Sheep were driven quite long distances by road for loading onto trains. I've discovered a fair bit about this whilst researching my own layout. 

In this case hundreds were driven into the yard at Broome (LNWR) and kept in temporary pens made from temporary hurdles that funnelled into the actual station dock.

The temporary pens apparently filled this yard.

 

Shropshire Star.

[Andy Keane]

I suspect the weekly Helston pig train would have shifted around 100 animals  to be worthwhile. So maybe similar arrangements were used. 

[Andy Keane]

There are also photos of queues of agricultural carts at GWR stations during harvest times. I have never seen animals being driven in large numbers or queues of carts on exhibition layouts, but maybe someone has done this? I rather like the idea of some pigs being driven towards the cattle dock on my layout. 

Edited August 23 by Andy Keane