Helston Revisited

[Andy Keane]

13 minutes ago, Nick C said:

750 shouldn't be too bad - but looking back at your chassis build on page 61, there really isn't much scope for sideplay is there? Maybe @DLT or @Michael Edge could offer some suggestions?

Yes I think the lack of side play is one thing to consider - I suppose on such a short wheelbase I did not worry about it at the time I was building. Next time I make up a chassis I will remember to test it on curves as well as straight ahead. Maybe @t-b-g might have some ideas too. As I say I am a beginner on loco chassis construction - this mallard kit being only the second one I have ever done.

Edited August 15 by Andy Keane

[DLT]

Should be fine on that radius, 750mm is about 2'6", and 00 standards are fairly forgiving.  But I would definitely try to arrange some sideplay somewhere

 

Incidentally, on my current build, (Beattie Well-Tank) I've arranged pickup and springing in one piece on the carrying wheels :

 

But as these are not under the cab floor I guess I've got a bit more room to play with.

[Andy Keane]

There is not much room at the back but the rear wheels are sprung. There is a central quite stiff spring that helps carry the weight of the rear of the loco and then a pair of much softer springs either side to allow the axle to tilt slightly. The main wheels are not sprung at all.

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

There is not much room at the back but the rear wheels are sprung. There is a central quite stiff spring that helps carry the weight of the rear of the loco and then a pair of much softer springs either side to allow the axle to tilt slightly. The main wheels are not sprung at all.

You probably do need some more sideplay somewhere. Given where you are, I'd try to get it on the trailing (non-powered) axle. You shouldn't need too much for 750mm radius as long as there are no tight spots with smaller radius on the layout. 438 (2nd radius) is a bit extreme and you might have frightened yourself unnecessarily with that.

 

Minimum radius on my layout is 760mm on the main lines and 670mm on the china-clay branch. When I was building the chassis for my 2021 pannier, which will run on the branch, I tested it on 3rd radius (505mm) track to be sure, to be sure:

 

 

There's about 0.7mm sideplay on the front and back axles, as fitted with no modifications, and an extra 1mm on the middle axle, achieved by filing the fronts of the axle bearing bushes.

[Neal Ball]

On 13/08/2024 at 14:39, Andy Keane said:

I have now added the gas lamps and stink pipe to Station Road. Also the entrance gates make a nice little cameo though I have no idea how accurate they are as I have never found a photo of this area. I have assumed that the gas lamps in Station Road were installed by the railway but as they lie outside its boundary have been adopted by the local corporation and painted in their green colour scheme!

That’s looking great Andy - such a shame that I can’t visit 🙁
 

I need to up my game before inviting you to see Henley!

 

19 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I have been having derailment issues with my kit built 517 - it runs fine on straight and gently curving track but cannot deal with the bend under the bridge at the end of my model of Helston. Investigating I see it will not sit on second radius set-track curves at all - if I try the middle wheel is just not on the track at:

Not sure what to do next - I have very little experience with building loco kits. In this case the middle axle is fixed by being attached to the driving gearbox. Any suggestions most welcome.

Andy

That’s a nuisance Andy, it doesn’t help, but this was my fear when I built the Metro tank. I tested thoroughly at the chassis build stage.

 

However, Is it feasible to change the connecting rod crank pins, then to introduce some play there. Maybe adding a washer between the connecting rod and the wheel.

 

Good luck.

Edited August 16 by Neal Ball

[Andy Keane]

I think I now have identified the problem. Its a combination of things. First the little loco is very sensitive to tight radius curves - its the only four coupled loco I have with suspension - and I have this one tight bit where the track leaves the scenic sections to enter the fiddle-yard. But crucially that very curve is not completely flat and has a very slight undulation on the outer rail. Then when the loco reaches that slight drop in the curve, the fine-scale flanges on the wheelsets are not deep enough to steer her around the curve. B****er! Given its the only loco that suffers like this I am loath to start ripping up track. I wish I had not bothered to add the springing to the rear axle now. I am wondering if I bias the spring so that it pushes harder on one side that the other - this would perhaps allow it to deal with tight right hand curves at the expense of left hand ones as I don't have any tight left hand track!

[Harlequin]

1 minute ago, Andy Keane said:

I think I now have identified the problem. Its a combination of things. First the little loco is very sensitive to tight radius curves - its the only four coupled loco I have with suspension - and I have this one tight bit where the track leaves the scenic sections to enter the fiddle-yard. But crucially that very curve is not completely flat and has a very slight undulation on the outer rail. Then when the loco reaches that slight drop in the curve, the fine-scale flanges on the wheelsets are not deep enough to steer her around the curve. B****er! Given its the only loco that suffers like this I am loath to start ripping up track. I wish I had not bothered to add the springing to the rear axle now. I am wondering if I bias the spring so that it pushes harder on one side that the other - this would perhaps allow it to deal with tight right hand curves at the expense of left hand ones as I don't have any tight left hand track!

New wheels with bigger flanges.

 

[Andy Keane]

2 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

New wheels with bigger flanges.

 

That would certainly help, but I am not sure if such things are readily available. If I could replace the front drivers with wheels with larger flanges that would probably do it. And those wheels are currently on axles  with axles nuts so they could be swapped relatively easily if I could find something suitable.

[Neal Ball]

Would a check rail at that point make a difference?

[Andy Keane]

5 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Would a check rail at that point make a difference?

That’s a great idea - much better than ripping track up. And given the tight radius a realistic addition. Has anyone suggestions on how to add a checkrail to a bit of Peco flexitrack?

[MrWolf]

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

That’s a great idea - much better than ripping track up. And given the tight radius a realistic addition. Has anyone suggestions on how to add a checkrail to a bit of Peco flexitrack?

 

Take a piece of rail and bend to the required curvature. Place in position and mark the rail and the sleeper about every 10th sleeper.

Drill small hole into bottom of rail at each point and glue or solder in a beheaded track pin.

Drill matching holes through sleepers and board, press check rail into place, do some test runs and secure spikes with a little super glue.

 

That's what I would try.

[Neal Ball]

16 hours ago, MrWolf said:

 

Take a piece of rail and bend to the required curvature. Place in position and mark the rail and the sleeper about every 10th sleeper.

Drill small hole into bottom of rail at each point and glue or solder in a beheaded track pin.

Drill matching holes through sleepers and board, press check rail into place, do some test runs and secure spikes with a little super glue.

 

That's what I would try.

Plus of course @Andy Keane, don’t forget to add an entry and exit ( I’m sure it’s got a more technical name) - were the track is splayed out, ready to guide the wheels in.

 

Good luck.

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Plus of course @Andy Keane, don’t forget to add an entry and exit ( I’m sure it’s got a more technical name) - were the track is splayed out, ready to guide the wheels in.

 

Good luck.

I will build one up on a bit of third radius Peco settrack to start with and see how it goes before trying to add one to Helston but I think this is definitely a solution worth trying and would help anything going over that bit of track.

[Neal Ball]

22 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

I will build one up on a bit of third radius Peco settrack to start with and see how it goes before trying to add one to Helston but I think this is definitely a solution worth trying and would help anything going over that bit of track.

 

In its simplest form, you could start off with a thick piece of mounting board*. its something I have used in the past when I had a lifting flap. 

Possibly on your curve, it wouldn't be a permanent solution, but would give you an indication about how it will work and how close to the outer rail it needs to be.

*Hardboard or ply perhaps....

[BWsTrains]

On 17/08/2024 at 15:21, Neal Ball said:

Would a check rail at that point make a difference?

 

It might well indeed.

 

I'm reminded of a visit we made to a local gold mine here, some hundreds of metres underground. The ore wagons with their very fixed wheel base, very small wheels and no brakes were encouraged to go around what looked like impossible curves at speed when the pit route turned 90 degrees. Obviously they were keeping the drives (horizontal excavations) as narrow as possible so stuck with tight radius curves for the right angle turn.

 

It was a simple but very effective solution in the 1890s and might just work.

Edited August 18 by BWsTrains

[BWsTrains]

2 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

( I’m sure it’s got a more technical name)

 

Flare

[Graham T]

1 hour ago, BWsTrains said:

 

Flare

 

And to be executed, of course, with...

 

 

... flair!

 

 

I'll get my coat.

[Andy Keane]

On 17/08/2024 at 06:21, Neal Ball said:

Would a check rail at that point make a difference?

Neal, your suggestion has been the perfect solution - I now have a checkrail installed and hey presto the little 517 tank trundles around the bend without derailing. It even makes a flange rubbing noise from time to time. And I don't find it out of place at all on this tight bend beyond the bridge:

[Neal Ball]

5 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Neal, your suggestion has been the perfect solution - I now have a checkrail installed and hey presto the little 517 tank trundles around the bend without derailing. It even makes a flange rubbing noise from time to time. And I don't find it out of place at all on this tight bend beyond the bridge:

 

Glad it worked.

[Andy Keane]

Having fixed the 517 issue I am back thinking about decorating the layout with livestock. Clearly I will be putting some Guernsey or Jersey cows in the fields but am less sure about the cattle dock. Cows would be the obvious solution but the working timetables show a weekly pig train leaving Helston so maybe pigs would be more interesting. Now there is a thread on RMweb devoted to pig movements:

that I think makes clear that cattle wagons were used by the GWR for standard size animals (piglets would be treated differently). But there is a hint in that thread that cattle docks had to be adapted to deal with pigs by adding vertical palings to the standard bars - I guess to stop the animals getting out under the bottom bar - does anyone have any knowledge of such changes - I have not seen a photo of this and most of those on the aforementioned thread have been lost in the big image crash.

Andy

[Andy Keane]

Cows in the field above the engine shed with their bull standing guard:

They are all pinned down with piano wire between their front legs but it doesn't really show and makes them much more stable as the 3D printed legs are very fragile.

Edited August 20 by Andy Keane

[Pete Haitch]

I'm collecting livestock for a Cornish layout, but in a bit of an erratic manner. Time to organise my thinking and notes which I'm putting here should they be of any use to you. Love your layout, Pete.

 

Livestock change a lot over time as particular traits become more or less popular; e.g., sizes, conformation or colour/markings.  Its worth looking at pictures from the area you are modelling for the period of interest.  The Royal Cornwall Museum, and one or two smaller ones, have collections from which some examples are available on-line. Historic pictures from ag shows and of marts can be found on-line. Newspaper reports of Royal Cornwall show results and weekly market fatstock prices can help build a picture of breeds present in the area at a particular time.
 

Cattle for Polhelyk
 

Jersey I’m going to buy some HO or possibly 3mm scale models of dairy type cattle to model these.  I remember Jerseys that were almost black, and others that were very light, so quite a lot of variation.
 

Guernsey At different times the trend has been to breed these to encourage an almost tan all-over look but, I think in the 30s then had far more white on them – more like the patterning of an Ayrshire or red and white Friesian.
 

Alderney At one time all Channel Island cattle were generically referred to as Alderneys, however, there was a separate Alderney Breed. There were the odd few in Cornwall but the entire breed became extinct during 2nd World War.  There is a very faded old picture on the web somewhere that shows a herd in Cornwall of 10 or 12 cows – all Channel Island including, I believe, an Alderney. These breeds produce milk with high levels of butterfat ideal for scald cream etc.
 

Cornish Black Cattle The map showing the distribution of cattle in the UK by colour circa 1750, shows the West/Central Cornish herd, along with West Wales and most of Scotland, to be predominantly black. Whilst there are some differences certainly the Welsh and Cornish populations are probably derived from the same original population. By the start of the 20th Century the Cornish and Welsh herds effectively became interbred and merged and we now only have the Welsh Black breed.

https://imagearchive.royalcornwallmuseum.org.uk/agriculture/st-just-penwith/women-milking-cows-field-st-just-penwith-19287693.html

https://imagearchive.royalcornwallmuseum.org.uk/places/sennen/sennen-churchtown-cornwall-1903-11656705.html
 

South Devon A large dual-purpose breed some of which migrated into Cornwall but not sure how many reached the Lizard. 60+ years ago I milked a few of these that matched the Friesians but with better milk quality. I’ve a couple of these in my model herd to add a bit of period correct variety.
 

Devon In these modern times also known as Ruby Red Devon. When Julius Ceasar visited these shores, he noted that in Southern England there was a population of scrawny red cattle. This was probably part of the original population from which the Devon and other breeds such as the Lincoln Red, Red Poll, Sussex etc were developed. I’m using HO scale models for these for further size and colour difference.
 

Gloucester/Glamorgan There is a picture from 1920/30s of a farmer (I think in Penzance) showing a Gloucester with lovely finchback marking. These may be black and white but totally different marking to other b&w breeds, giving more variety and will no doubt provoke comments about there being no black and white cattle in the UK before the 2nd World War.  They are a triple purpose breed so I’m modelling a couple of yoke to give a span pulling an ox cart.  For proper Double Gloucester, Dorset Blue Vinney and Wiltshire Loaf cheeses,  Gloucester milk should be used.
 

Colling/Beef Shorthorn and Northern Dairy Shorthorn Got everywhere including Cornwall- probably with good reason.  Although I can take or leave them, I will include some to add further variety. @JustinDean has produced these rather nice examples

Edit. Sorry, this was meant be a link to the thread, not a hijack of the picture.

Longhorn – Longhorn Type This is too much to resist! https://imagearchive.royalcornwallmuseum.org.uk/agriculture/oxen-work-mevagissey-cornwall-1892-12573087.html I certainly will have some more traditionally marked Longhorns – I was always amazed at how well they managed their horns.

 

Normande Let me state this - Cornish mariners are not pirates. There is a tale that many decades ago a Cornish fishing boat had to run ahead of a storm and ended up finding shelter in a port in Normandy. They were less than impressed with the welcome they received so found their own entertainment. As a result, next morning when they left for the voyage home there was, allegedly, a Normande calf on board. Supposedly it had spotty black markings similar to a Dalmatian dog.  

 

Pigs, Sheep, Knockers and Buccas to follow

Edited August 20 by Pete Haitch

[Andy Keane]

Pete, thanks for this. I have another group of cows with more white on them for one of the other fields (so as Guernsey cattle). I will be really interested in your notes on pigs too!

Andy

Edited August 20 by Andy Keane

[Gilbert]

19 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Pete, thanks for this. I have another group of cows with more white on them for one of the other fields. I will be really interested in your notes on pigs too!

Andy

Are the pigs 00, EM or P4....?

[Andy Keane]

Thanks to @Pete Haitch I have found Middleton Top. Amazing!