Helston Revisited

[Andy Keane]

I am also at work on the motor garage that Helston had next to the goods shed. There are very details of this and very few photos, though it does seem to have been extended at some stage as the roof shows two very distinct colours in aerial photos. I know its overall footprint after the extension (55 feet by 22 foot six) and can estimate height (about 18 feet to the top) but I only have partial views of the rear and one end. As it is all corrugated steel sheet the plan is a 3d print in resin. Crucially I don't know how the doors were actually arranged. This is my current best guess (ex glazing and doors) but if anyone has any better ideas I would very much appreciate them.

[St Enodoc]

21 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Agree - in scale terms you're talking of something that must be around the diameter of a human hair (note to self - look up diameter of seven strand signal wire)

From memory, scarred (literally) by the experience of splicing them on the GCR in 1975, I'd say that it was about 5/16" or 8mm diameter - let's say 0.1mm in 4mm scale.

[Andy Keane]

25 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

From memory, scarred (literally) by the experience of splicing them on the GCR in 1975, I'd say that it was about 5/16" or 8mm diameter - let's say 0.1mm in 4mm scale.

I did order a length of wire for this from MSE and I would guess it is about that size. Threading it would be a challenge but I may do some experiments and see.

[Andy Keane]

The signal frame is coming along. It needs mounting in the case and the metal arcs placing over the switches to replicate the curved plates of the real thing but I am quite pleased, especially given the botch on the lead for lever 7.

[Neal Ball]

4 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I am also at work on the motor garage that Helston had next to the goods shed. There are very details of this and very few photos, though it does seem to have been extended at some stage as the roof shows two very distinct colours in aerial photos. I know its overall footprint after the extension (55 feet by 22 foot six) and can estimate height (about 18 feet to the top) but I only have partial views of the rear and one end. As it is all corrugated steel sheet the plan is a 3d print in resin. Crucially I don't know how the doors were actually arranged. This is my current best guess (ex glazing and doors) but if anyone has any better ideas I would very much appreciate them.

Re the doors - have a look at the ones at Didcot. That will be useful for suggestions…. Have you looked in the GWR Architecture book?

 

Good luck.

[Andy Keane]

8 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Re the doors - have a look at the ones at Didcot. That will be useful for suggestions…. Have you looked in the GWR Architecture book?

 

Good luck.

Neal, I have looked in the architecture book but as far as I can see there are no large corrugated sheds with vehicle doors in. there are small corrugated huts and also large multi story structures but nothing that really helps. Also the Helston garage was for the new motor bus service to the Lizard which was, of course, the GWR's first foray into buses. So when built they had no standard designs to hand.

Regarding Didcot is there a particular building there you have in mind?

thanks

Andy

[The Stationmaster]

4 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Neal, I have looked in the architecture book but as far as I can see there are no large corrugated sheds with vehicle doors in. there are small corrugated huts and also large multi story structures but nothing that really helps. Also the Helston garage was for the new motor bus service to the Lizard which was, of course, the GWR's first foray into buses. So when built they had no standard designs to hand.

Regarding Didcot is there a particular building there you have in mind?

thanks

Andy

It's bigger and a different purpose but havea look at the railmotor shed build on the GWS website.  It might also be worth having a look at the Wiltshire records Office Swindon M&EE drawing lists but whether they include Road Motor Vehicle sheds  I don't know.

[Neal Ball]

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

Neal, I have looked in the architecture book but as far as I can see there are no large corrugated sheds with vehicle doors in. there are small corrugated huts and also large multi story structures but nothing that really helps. Also the Helston garage was for the new motor bus service to the Lizard which was, of course, the GWR's first foray into buses. So when built they had no standard designs to hand.

Regarding Didcot is there a particular building there you have in mind?

thanks

Andy

Sorry Andy, similar building as Mike has said……

 

But I’m sure I’ve seen plans for it somewhere…

[Mike_Walker]

There is a building at Didcot they refer to as the "Roadmotor Garage" but I'm not sure if it's an original.  It's next to the branch station.

 

I'm down there next Sunday so if you want I can take some photos.

[Andy Keane]

25 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

railmotor shed build

Mike

Thats interesting and its not too dissimilar from what I plan. One key question I have struggled with is whether the vehicle doors would be on the side or at the end. I have put mine at the side because where it sits the end would be very close to the goods shed. In the end its all educated (or not) guessing!

Andy

[Andy Keane]

Just now, Mike_Walker said:

There is a building at Didcot they refer to as the "Roadmotor Garage" but I'm not sure if it's an original.  It's next to the branch station.

 

I'm down there next Sunday so if you want I can take some photos.

Thats very kind, though I have found this online at https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/zrailmotor93/shed/pictures/10_12_17_shed.html

I think this is perhaps even more relevant from the same site: https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/zrailmotor93/shed/pictures/southall_03.html

But if it was not any trouble some close up of how the doors are fitted would be very useful

thanks

Andy

[Harlequin]

FWIW: Moretonhampstead had a road motor garage but it was timber clad with a pitched roof. I don't know of any photos of it from the main doors end.

 

[Tankerman]

10 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I am also at work on the motor garage that Helston had next to the goods shed. There are very details of this and very few photos, though it does seem to have been extended at some stage as the roof shows two very distinct colours in aerial photos. I know its overall footprint after the extension (55 feet by 22 foot six) and can estimate height (about 18 feet to the top) but I only have partial views of the rear and one end. As it is all corrugated steel sheet the plan is a 3d print in resin. Crucially I don't know how the doors were actually arranged. This is my current best guess (ex glazing and doors) but if anyone has any better ideas I would very much appreciate them.

Just a thought, it might be useful to contact the successors to the local town council as they might have some photos or drawings of the motor garage in their archives.

[Andy Keane]

10 hours ago, Tankerman said:

Just a thought, it might be useful to contact the successors to the local town council as they might have some photos or drawings of the motor garage in their archives.

i have been to Helston town museum, who hold the archives, and have been through all their photos which added quite a bit but not the motor shed unfortunately.

regards

Andy

[Andy Keane]

As I start to lay out the building and the yard surface I need to decide exactly where the crane is centred. It was a 6 ton fixed crane with an 18 foot radius from the pivot to the hook. The photos show it as though it serving the goods shed loop rather than the back siding but would the crane centre be 18 feet from the track centre or perhaps closer to give it better access to wagon contents. Also I could move it towards the engine shed end so that it also could work the back siding but it would then seem to be in a rather cramped location between the tracks. Does anyone know anything about how yard cranes were positioned?

[Andy Keane]

On 25/06/2023 at 13:25, Andy Keane said:

I did order a length of wire for this from MSE and I would guess it is about that size. Threading it would be a challenge but I may do some experiments and see.

I have just found the pack of MSE signal wire - it claims to be 0..07mm diameter, so 0.21 inches full scale so even finer than the 5/16" mentioned above!

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

As I start to lay out the building and the yard surface I need to decide exactly where the crane is centred. It was a 6 ton fixed crane with an 18 foot radius from the pivot to the hook. The photos show it as though it serving the goods shed loop rather than the back siding but would the crane centre be 18 feet from the track centre or perhaps closer to give it better access to wagon contents. Also I could move it towards the engine shed end so that it also could work the back siding but it would then seem to be in a rather cramped location between the tracks. Does anyone know anything about how yard cranes were positioned?

Several things ti consider with cranes -

 

1. the lifting capacity very definitely won't be achieved at maximum working radius, most likely only at the minimum radius.

2.  It needs access for a cart or lorry on the side away from the siding it serves and ideally there needs sufficient space there to turn a cart or (in later years a lorry or artic trailer.

3.  I think you'll find that 6 ton fixed cranes normally only served a single siding because of items 1 & 2. If more than ne siding was serged - as in larger depots - a gantry crane was far more likely assuming it could be big enough to work the most common loads.  

 

The lack of flexibility of fixed cranes helps explain why mobile cranes were so popular on the railway.

 

Photo below - sorry abut the quality but I took it a long time ago - shows the 6 ton crane at our local station.  Fortunately it survived into preservation and I do have colour photos of it as it now is and hopefully might be able to access t again in August when theh site will be open to the general public.

 

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I have just found the pack of MSE signal wire - it claims to be 0..07mm diameter, so 0.21 inches full scale so even finer than the 5/16" mentioned above!

Ah, but has it got seven strands?

[Neal Ball]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Several things ti consider with cranes -

 

1. the lifting capacity very definitely won't be achieved at maximum working radius, most likely only at the minimum radius.

2.  It needs access for a cart or lorry on the side away from the siding it serves and ideally there needs sufficient space there to turn a cart or (in later years a lorry or artic trailer.

3.  I think you'll find that 6 ton fixed cranes normally only served a single siding because of items 1 & 2. If more than ne siding was serged - as in larger depots - a gantry crane was far more likely assuming it could be big enough to work the most common loads.  

 

The lack of flexibility of fixed cranes helps explain why mobile cranes were so popular on the railway.

 

Photo below - sorry abut the quality but I took it a long time ago - shows the 6 ton crane at our local station.  Fortunately it survived into preservation and I do have colour photos of it as it now is and hopefully might be able to access t again in August when theh site will be open to the general public.

 

Interesting to see this photo posted Mike. I’ve been working on the goods shed over the last few days, tidying up a few bits that are not complete.

 

Obviously one bit that is missing to the scene is the 6 ton crane….. Ages ago, someone was offering a 3D print via the GWR modellers page on Facebook. The first run had sold out by the time I came across the post. 🙁

[Andy Keane]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

normally only served a single siding

Mike

That is the key bit of info I needed - thanks. It make positioning the crane simpler. Also on the six ton fixed crane you could not alter the lift radius - the jib is supported by two fixed length bars. So the only way to change exactly where the hook would fall would be by both rotating the crane AND shunting the wagon. But I will give some thought to cart access as well.

And indeed I have a photo of a mobile 6 ton crane in the siding served by the fixed one so no doubt it was not a great device!

regards

Andy

[BenL]

4 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Interesting to see this photo posted Mike. I’ve been working on the goods shed over the last few days, tidying up a few bits that are not complete.

 

Obviously one bit that is missing to the scene is the 6 ton crane….. Ages ago, someone was offering a 3D print via the GWR modellers page on Facebook. The first run had sold out by the time I came across the post. 🙁

I also really need a 6 ton yard crane to this design. I bought the Osbourne Models laser cut kit but it looks a bit of a nightmare and from what other much more skilled modellers than me have said on here, it is indeed a bit of a fight to put it together.

 

I would certainly snap up a 3D printed version - I wonder if this might be something @Modelu Chris would consider?

[Andy Keane]

17 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I have just found the pack of MSE signal wire - it claims to be 0..07mm diameter, so 0.21 inches full scale so even finer than the 5/16" mentioned above!

@The Stationmaster Mike can you confirm the spacing between signal wire support posts was around 20 feet? I seem to remember either you or Paul said so but cannot recall where.

thanks

andy

[Neal Ball]

2 hours ago, BenL said:

I also really need a 6 ton yard crane to this design. I bought the Osbourne Models laser cut kit but it looks a bit of a nightmare and from what other much more skilled modellers than me have said on here, it is indeed a bit of a fight to put it together.

 

I would certainly snap up a 3D printed version - I wonder if this might be something @Modelu Chris would consider?

 

The plans were printed in GWRJ a few years ago - which I have a copy of, in case @Modelu Chris would like a copy to aid the CAD process.

[Andy Keane]

28 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

 

The plans were printed in GWRJ a few years ago - which I have a copy of, in case @Modelu Chris would like a copy to aid the CAD process.

Neal

I know of at least two individuals have converted those drawings into CAD. But it is not so easy to gain access to their models to generate prints. For myself I suspect a printed jib would be very fragile and if I set about making a model I would print the base with all its gearing etc and then make up some brass etches for the jib that would either be soldered or epoxied together. If we could get enough people together we could make some nice crane kits for maybe £30 each?

regards

Andy

[Neal Ball]

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Neal

I know of at least two individuals have converted those drawings into CAD. But it is not so easy to gain access to their models to generate prints. For myself I suspect a printed jib would be very fragile and if I set about making a model I would print the base with all its gearing etc and then make up some brass etches for the jib that would either be soldered or epoxied together. If we could get enough people together we could make some nice crane kits for maybe £30 each?

regards

Andy

That would be good Andy, yes please!

 

How many others might be interested I wonder….