Helston Revisited

[Andy Keane]

18 minutes ago, Graham T said:

Good idea to sink the buildings in, I think.

 

Yes , 1mm seems about right to get a good fit. And I can mark and cut the cork before it goes down. It seems reasonably stable but can be cut out later if needed.

[Andy Keane]

To go with the lever frame I have been working on the brass leads. I floated in the black paint this morning.

You will notice there is an extra lead for lever 7. Because we changed our view on where disc 7 was after I had the leads made I had to botch together a spare 7 with the bottom of a spare 10 to make a replacement. Its not great but at least the wording is now correct for the diagram I am working to!

Edited June 17, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

On 15/06/2023 at 10:32, Andy Keane said:

Interested to see a Lawrence Scale Models B set go for £110 at auction yesterday for the pair. These used to fetch much more but I suspect the Rapido announcement has done for their values now.

Amusingly this pair is now on eBay with a dealer at £345! maybe there really are some mugs out there.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325697462492?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m43.l3160&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=c4479604357140e08f0ade5e83df34ea&bu=43054345708&ut=RU&exe=0&ext=0&osub=-1~1&crd=20230617075640&segname=11021

Andy

Edited June 17, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Neal Ball]

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

Amusingly this pair is now on eBay with a dealer at £345! maybe there really are some mugs out there.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325697462492?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m43.l3160&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=c4479604357140e08f0ade5e83df34ea&bu=43054345708&ut=RU&exe=0&ext=0&osub=-1~1&crd=20230617075640&segname=11021

Andy

 

Madness..... mind you knowing how long it takes to build a carriage, if you factor in the time involved to build it.... possibly it's a bargain....

 

I'm not suggesting a purchase....

[Andy Keane]

22 hours ago, Graham T said:

Good idea to sink the buildings in, I think.

 

@Graham Tdid you sink your goods shed in? 

I am pondering what exactly happens where the track enters the shed. I am planning 1mm cork butted up against the sleeper edges and ballast between the sleepers in the yard. But the transition into the shed is not so obvious. Do you think I should I run two narrow strips of 1mm thick cork right through the shed to fit between the sleepers and loading platform on one side and the sleepers and the inside of the wall on the other? How did you do yours?

Edited June 17, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

These pictures are quite helpful in terms of what I need to achieve:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrwm430b.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrmm976a.htm

 

[Graham T]

14 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

@Graham Tdid you sink your goods shed in? 

I am pondering what exactly happens where the track enters the shed. I am planning 1mm cork butted up against the sleeper edges and ballast between the sleepers in the yard. But the transition into the shed is not so obvious. Do you think I should I run two narrow strips of 1mm thick cork right through the shed to fit between the sleepers and loading platform on one side and the sleepers and the inside of the wall on the other? How did you do yours?

I can’t remember what I did to be honest Andy; would have to look back through my thread and only have a mobile right now.  But your idea of using cork strips sounds good to me.

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 15/06/2023 at 21:56, 5BarVT said:

Yes, just bare steel so needed to be kept polished.

Painted aluminium (silver) on Ground Frames as they were outside.

Boxes that were rarely opened (Lavington was summer Sats only by the time it closed) tended to be a bit rusty as they didn’t get the care that they needed.

Paul.

The painting of lever handles at ground frames seems to have been a fairly late innovation (by late I mean no earlier than the 1970s.  The colour used seemed to vary but white was very common in some areas on the WR and aluminium seemed far less common from what I saw..   

 

The frame below is in a preservation era created 'box on a preserved railway (Bishops Bridge on the SDR) but it a standard Reading frame with 5 bar VT locking.  The levers are painted in the correct WR colours and the blue is spot on (something many preservationists get wrong). Note the way the catch handles are plaited with a small band of paint above the connection to the catch  rod.  Painting is absolutely correct which is not surprising as their S&T Engineer was a WR employee.

 

Don't forget that if painting brass you will need to prime it and an an undercoat will probably also help.

 

A matter of personal choice but I would be inclined to leave the lever handles n and catcg=h handles in natural metal.  I know it is wrong but painted handles always wear badly and never look right to me.  So maybe you need to work them properly and use a duster to stop the metal tarnishing.

 

What made lever handles rusty in signal boxes was working them without a duster.  They did tend to get duller and grubby looking if not regularly cleaned but rust was unusual.  One of my 'boxes, Bruton, only opened on Summer Saturdays while Hawkeridge Jcn only opened for occasional train diversions and there was no rust at all on the lever handles at both of them but they were very far from shiny.   However the Signalmen who usually worked them always used a duster  so 'poison fingers' -basically sweaty hands -  weren't touching the handles so rust fidfn't v develop.  But as soon as somebody forgot or didn't bother to use a duster you got rust on the lever handles and catch handles.

 

In mst well looked after 'boxes s Sunday was usually cleaning day and that included the lever handles althougha buffing witha cloth was sufficient on levers that were looked after.  If dirt had built up the best solution was fine emery paper used very sparingly with newspaper on the tread plates to catch as much of the muck as possible.

 

 

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The painting of lever handles at ground frames seems to have been a fairly late innovation (by late I mean no earlier than the 1970s.  The colour used seemed to vary but white was very common in some areas on the WR and aluminium seemed far less common from what I saw..   

 

The frame below is in a preservation era created 'box on a preserved railway (Bishops Bridge on the SDR) but it a standard Reading frame with 5 bar VT locking.  The levers are painted in the correct WR colours and the blue is spot on (something many preservationists get wrong). Note the way the catch handles are plaited with a small band of paint above the connection to the catch  rod.  Painting is absolutely correct which is not surprising as their S&T Engineer was a WR employee.

 

Don't forget that if painting brass you will need to prime it and an an undercoat will probably also help.

 

A matter of personal choice but I would be inclined to leave the lever handles n and catcg=h handles in natural metal.  I know it is wrong but painted handles always wear badly and never look right to me.  So maybe you need to work them properly and use a duster to stop the metal tarnishing.

 

What made lever handles rusty in signal boxes was working them without a duster.  They did tend to get duller and grubby looking if not regularly cleaned but rust was unusual.  One of my 'boxes, Bruton, only opened on Summer Saturdays while Hawkeridge Jcn only opened for occasional train diversions and there was no rust at all on the lever handles at both of them but they were very far from shiny.   However the Signalmen who usually worked them always used a duster  so 'poison fingers' -basically sweaty hands -  weren't touching the handles so rust fidfn't v develop.  But as soon as somebody forgot or didn't bother to use a duster you got rust on the lever handles and catch handles.

 

In mst well looked after 'boxes s Sunday was usually cleaning day and that included the lever handles althougha buffing witha cloth was sufficient on levers that were looked after.  If dirt had built up the best solution was fine emery paper used very sparingly with newspaper on the tread plates to catch as much of the muck as possible.

 

 

Mike, that is really helpful. There are lots of photos of preserved ‘boxes but one is never sure if they are correct so having a trustworthy photo is great. What is the blue and black lever colour scheme for? Also the red with white stripe? And is the white and gold a king lever?

Edited June 18, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Don't forget that if painting brass you will need to prime it and an an undercoat will probably also help.

I use an etch primer but find very few things really stick to brass. A chemical etch might work but not easy on built up switches.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Mike, that is really helpful. There are lots of photos of preserved ‘boxes but one is never sure if they are correct so having a trustworthy photo is great. What is the blue and black lever colour scheme for? Also the red with white stripe? And is the white and gold a king lever?

Colours are standard although some of the 'specials' varied between Companies/BR Regions.  The shade of vlue used on FPL levers also seems to have varied between Regions from what I have seen.  

 

So -

Red for all stop signals including ground discs.  At one time the Western used to paint the lower half of Relief Line signal levers black but that seems to have died out by the end of the 1960s if not earlier)

Yellow for distant signal levers after they were changed to yellow arm and lights, prior to that they were painted green.

Black for points - all points worked by a signal box or ground frame

Blue for facing point locks

Blue above black for levers operating both the FPL and changing the setting of the point switches

White band on a lever indicated it was electrically released by another signal box (usually by 'Line Clear' on the block Instrument) or by 'token our' (for a  departing train)

White - spare lever or lever taken out of use and made spare.  Also on the Western white was normally used for levers which had to be worked to maintain the interlocjking after the function theyr opriginally worked had been taken out of use

 

In that particular frame - alternate brown and white horizontal stripes - Switching Our lever for intermediate signal boxes on a single which clo ould be closed when teh line was otherwise open for traffic.

 

Detonator placers - alternate black and white chevrons on the side of the lever - facing chevron point down down for Down Line placers and chevron [oit up for up for Up line placers.

Blue above brown and red above brown used for various types of releases and direction or accptance leverts.

Level crossing gate locks and wicket gate lock levers were painted brown.  

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Black for points - all points worked by a signal box or ground frame

I have seen many layouts where ground frame point levers are painted white so did this change at all?

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I have seen many layouts where ground frame point levers are painted white so did this change at all?

I reckon you are probably thinking of hand point levers - which are painted white

 

This is a ground frame (somebody didn't get the right blue in this case as it is on an ex Western line)

 

 

 

This is a hand point lever (to be technically 'orribly pedantic it is most likely a two-way hand point lever)

 

 

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And note which way round it is - you face an approaching train when operating it.

[Andy Keane]

Ah! I see. So Helston has three hand point levers and no ground frames. White they shall be. And as for direction it’s not so obvious in a yard as to which way the trains are going, but I do have some photos to help.

[Andy Keane]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

This is a ground frame (somebody didn't get the right blue in this case as it is on an ex Western line)

Just curious - would ground frames have had brass leads back in the day? They would have been a pain to keep polished living out in the open.

[St Enodoc]

47 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Ah! I see. So Helston has three hand point levers and no ground frames. White they shall be. And as for direction it’s not so obvious in a yard as to which way the trains are going, but I do have some photos to help.

The idea is that you look towards a train that is approaching the point in a facing direction (i.e. from the left in @The Stationmaster Mike's photo). These hand points don't need to be operated in the trailing direction - the train wheels move them across.

[5BarVT]

18 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

At one time the Western used to paint the lower half of Relief Line signal levers black but that seems to have died out by the end of the 1960s if not earlier)

Relief Line signals were red over black in Taunton summer 77 (or perhaps 78) when I was taken there by the late John Madeley.  I suspect they remained that way until superseded by Exeter panel in mid 80s.

Paul.

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Just curious - would ground frames have had brass leads back in the day? They would have been a pain to keep polished living out in the open.

In theory yes but I never saw any - all the ones I saw had the later standard ivorine leads.

[Andy Keane]

This morning I have been laying down the point rodding using the ModelU stuff. I am now nearly blind and my wrists are shaking - it is tiny but does look nice when down. Fragile does not begin to say it though. I next need to put in the cranks to connect the two runs underneath the engine shed road. Then the very long single run to point 10. Following that come the signal wires but I will probably leave that until the ballast is down.

There are some good photos of crank setups here: http://www.norgrove.me.uk/resources/rodding.htm

Andy

Edited June 20, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

I now calculate that I will need sixty rodding stools and single rollers for the run down to point 10. This is going to try my patience.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

I have now started on the long run to point 10. Having discussed this with @The Stationmaster we have concluded from the photos we have that when run past the platform the rollers were mounted directly on the sleeper ends and only had separate stools once beyond the platform. Being a long run I plan to put in two compensators, though given the location in shade under the platform edge it may not really have been like that.

Andy

[Andy Keane]

Got the long run in: 62 rollers, two compensators and cranks at each end. Also the planking by the signal box. It will all need painting in due course. Glad to be dome with it TBH. Next on the signalbox front come the signal wire rollers on their posts / fixed to the platform face. But I think it may be best to ballast the track first. I am also not completely sure about actually putting in the signal wires themselves - it is like hair.

[St Enodoc]

16 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

I am also not completely sure about actually putting in the signal wires themselves - it is like hair.

I'd be inclined to leave them out.

[The Stationmaster]

23 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

I'd be inclined to leave them out.

Agree - in scale terms you're talking of something that must be around the diameter of a human hair (note to self - look up diameter of seven strand signal wire)

Edited June 25, 2023 by The Stationmaster