Helston Revisited

[The Stationmaster]

On 02/06/2023 at 16:55, Andy Keane said:

I have been busy making up the Mainly Trains cast brass buffer stops (MT247). These are a bit fiddly but rather nice and much better than the plastic Peco bullhead versions. But I will use a Peco one down the back of my carriage shed as the brass ones come in pairs and there are only two exposed ones at Helston.

 

One thing I have not decided on is what the floor would have been inside the carriage shed - I doubt it was standard ballast but also not sure it would have been sleepers set in concrete either. And I guess the same goes for the goods shed. Does anyone know what GWR practice was inside such shed in the 1930s?

 

I'm not sure about a stop blovck inside the carriage shed but such things definitely existed and at that site I think one would have been essential.  Only question in my mind is rail built or stone built but I haven't got a clue what happened at Helston.

 

Goods shed railway track is quite straightforward - every Western goods shed I ever saw or worked in had either concrete set track (which was rare) or, particularly at smaller places, ordinary sleepered track.  The sleepered track at everywhere I saw it appeared to be inset with the sleeper tops at ground level.   In reality of course the track was not inset but ground level had been built up between and alongside the sleepers to sleeper top level.  I suspect the material originally used was ah or smokebox char but over the years this was compressed and just looked a sort of dirty grey colour and fairly smooth.  

 

So in. other words the track inside the goods shed wouldn't have looked much different from parts of the sidings outside the building.

[Andy Keane]

21 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I'm not sure about a stop blovck inside the carriage shed but such things definitely existed and at that site I think one would have been essential.  Only question in my mind is rail built or stone built but I haven't got a clue what happened at Helston.

 

Goods shed railway track is quite straightforward - every Western goods shed I ever saw or worked in had either concrete set track (which was rare) or, particularly at smaller places, ordinary sleepered track.  The sleepered track at everywhere I saw it appeared to be inset with the sleeper tops at ground level.   In reality of course the track was not inset but ground level had been built up between and alongside the sleepers to sleeper top level.  I suspect the material originally used was ah or smokebox char but over the years this was compressed and just looked a sort of dirty grey colour and fairly smooth.  

 

So in. other words the track inside the goods shed wouldn't have looked much different from parts of the sidings outside the building.

Mike

Many thanks for that - it will simplify setting up the yard area - I just need a form of sludge in place of normal ballast. The trick will be applying it without creating a mess. Really what one wants is a dry powder that can be positioned and then misted over with water. If I used a normal filler I think it would be hard to lay. It would be good to know if anyone has a good solution for setting out yard track "ballast" in this way.

regarding the carriage shed buffer I will stick with a peco item - it will be hard to notice in there anyway!

Andy

[Andy Keane]

ps - are signal levers painted in a gloss paint or a matt one - I am about to start on my little lever frame with some red (and I see in photos the main handle is polished but the catch handle is painted?) did the shade of blue vary?

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Wow, I paid BR 7/6 each for mine!!

I was too young!  All had to go to collectors corner by the time I was in the market.

Paul.

[5BarVT]

25 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

ps - are signal levers painted in a gloss paint or a matt one - I am about to start on my little lever frame with some red (and I see in photos the main handle is polished but the catch handle is painted?) did the shade of blue vary?

Gloss paint - they look quite shiny when newly painted.  The glossiness wears off over time just as it does with house paint.

Catch handles are painted lever colour around the hinge, but the handle itself is also polished steel.  Tends to be a bit dirty on the flat inside as it’s difficult to get in to clean and polish.

(All from a now ageing memory!)
Paul.

[Graham T]

46 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Mike

Many thanks for that - it will simplify setting up the yard area - I just need a form of sludge in place of normal ballast. The trick will be applying it without creating a mess. Really what one wants is a dry powder that can be positioned and then misted over with water. If I used a normal filler I think it would be hard to lay. It would be good to know if anyone has a good solution for setting out yard track "ballast" in this way.

regarding the carriage shed buffer I will stick with a peco item - it will be hard to notice in there anyway!

Andy

Have a look at the Chris Nevard method with Das clay.

 

[checkrail]

42 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Many thanks for that - it will simplify setting up the yard area - I just need a form of sludge in place of normal ballast. The trick will be applying it without creating a mess. Really what one wants is a dry powder that can be positioned and then misted over with water. If I used a normal filler I think it would be hard to lay. It would be good to know if anyone has a good solution for setting out yard track "ballast" in this way.

I used Carr's ash ballast from C & L for the goods yard.  Worked out well.

[Gilbert]

50 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Mike

Many thanks for that - it will simplify setting up the yard area - I just need a form of sludge in place of normal ballast. The trick will be applying it without creating a mess. Really what one wants is a dry powder that can be positioned and then misted over with water. If I used a normal filler I think it would be hard to lay. It would be good to know if anyone has a good solution for setting out yard track "ballast" in this way.

regarding the carriage shed buffer I will stick with a peco item - it will be hard to notice in there anyway!

Andy

This may help Andy...

https://www.missendenrailwaymodellers.org.uk/index.php/virtual-missenden-a-goods-yard/

Chris H

[Andy Keane]

59 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

This may help Andy...

https://www.missendenrailwaymodellers.org.uk/index.php/virtual-missenden-a-goods-yard/

Chris H

That’s very interesting Chris. Though not directly applicable given my track is already laid. But the use of ash over the yard pushed into Humbol 92 paint is something worth trying. I think raising the general level with card is also possible. Unfortunately Humbrol no longer list number 92 in their paint charts though. Not sure what is the closest match.

Andy

Edited June 14, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Gilbert]

19 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

That’s very interesting Chris. Though not directly applicable given my track is already laid. But the use of ash over the yard pushed into Humbol 92 paint is something worth trying. I think raising the general level with card is also possible. Unfortunately Humbrol no longer list number 92 in their paint charts though. Not sure what is the closest match.

Andy

I've tried the ash method and have been please - I think I used Humbrol 64 which also conveniently comes in a spray can but IIRC Barry uses a gloss paint which presumably aids ash adhesion...

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

ps - are signal levers painted in a gloss paint or a matt one - I am about to start on my little lever frame with some red (and I see in photos the main handle is polished but the catch handle is painted?) did the shade of blue vary?

Gloss - and in a decent box kept nice and clean.

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Gloss - and in a decent box kept nice and clean.

I have ordered up some Humbrol gloss: French blue(14), red(19), black(21) and white(22). I have also put in a tin of ivory as I find modern white very bright so may tone that down a bit.

Andy

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, Gilbert said:

I've tried the ash method and have been please - I think I used Humbrol 64 which also conveniently comes in a spray can but IIRC Barry uses a gloss paint which presumably aids ash adhesion...

There is also this thread: 

 

Some seem to use DAS modelling clay over standard ballast.

I think laying down sheets of card in the bigger areas is a good start.

Then I rather like the use of real ash - I have a ready supply from our log burner.

But I think a few tests first!

Andy

[57xx]

22 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

I have ordered up some Humbrol gloss: French blue(14), red(19), black(21) and white(22). I have also put in a tin of ivory as I find modern white very bright so may tone that down a bit.

Andy

 

Ivory is also good for lightening other colours without making them harsh.

[BWsTrains]

9 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I just need a form of sludge in place of normal ballast. The trick will be applying it without creating a mess.

 

Andy,

 

I was attracted by the appearance of general yard surfaces at Stoke Courtney and John told me he'd used Chinchilla dust.

https://content-eu.invisioncic.com/y320084/monthly_2022_05/y1.jpg.831733e2cde6ae49d20bb0dc4494377e.jpg

 

As that's not available here I did some searching around and found that finely sieved gypsum seemed promising.  Haven't don't much more since but initial post is here.

 

It's a very fine texture and could be poured in between tracks, tamped down and glued with dilute PVA. My gypsum has a pink/ orange tinge but when I followed by applied a dilute cream acrylic paint / PVA I got the result shown. More grey would be easy.

 

 

Colin

 

 

[Andy Keane]

Interested to see a Lawrence Scale Models B set go for £110 at auction yesterday for the pair. These used to fetch much more but I suspect the Rapido announcement has done for their values now.

[Nick C]

21 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Gloss - and in a decent box kept nice and clean.

But nothing on a 4mm model should be gloss, it doesn't scale. 

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

But nothing on a 4mm model should be gloss, it doesn't scale. 

Just to be clear we are talking about the DCC Concepts levers that are about three inches tall that I will be operating, not anything at 4mm scale.

regards

Andy

[Nick C]

14 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Just to be clear we are talking about the DCC Concepts levers that are about three inches tall that I will be operating, not anything at 4mm scale.

regards

Andy

Ah, in which case, yes, gloss! Handle should be polished, Catch handles did vary by company, but from photos it looks like GWR ones were polished as well - see Lapworth for example, or the various preserved boxes.

[5BarVT]

4 hours ago, Nick C said:

from photos it looks like GWR ones were polished as well - see Lapworth for example, or the various preserved boxes.

Yes, just bare steel so needed to be kept polished.

Painted aluminium (silver) on Ground Frames as they were outside.

Boxes that were rarely opened (Lavington was summer Sats only by the time it closed) tended to be a bit rusty as they didn’t get the care that they needed.

Paul.

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Yes, just bare steel so needed to be kept polished.

Hence the compulsory use of the duster.

[Andy Keane]

I have gotten a painted steel instrument case to form the base of the lever frame. This will house all 18 levers and the Arduino mega that runs the interlocking. As I have to have a bunch of pushbuttons for various other functions I will also add 15  locking violation warning LED lamps. The push buttons will all call DCC accessory codes via the Arduino (as will the levers of course) and will have these functions:

• four to operate my electro-magnetic de-couplers
• four to operate my TrainTech SR1 sound module (not sure if I will use the four tracks for the four klaxon codes or see if multiple pushes can be used to do that leaving the other tracks free for other sounds like the guards whistle)
• one for my automated Dapol water tower
• one to run a NCE macro to reset all the points and signals to the default position so if I get confused I can restart quickly
• one to operate the remote bell in the fiddle yard for bell code operations

The last two functions are the pair of buttons on the extreme right.

I have also gotten a couple of two inch diameter cast brass clock bells and a matching pair of spring return solenoids to strike the bell rims - one bell will be on the case top and the solenoid will be inside and poke through a small hole - this is outlined as a circle on the sketch below.

 

Can anyone think of something else that I might have missed before I send the case top for waterjet cutting?

Andy

(nb - the gap in the levers is to allow for the difference between the main interlocked frame and the three ground levers while the space at the far end is because the Arduino lives under there)

 

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

On 14/06/2023 at 23:36, BWsTrains said:

 

Andy,

 

I was attracted by the appearance of general yard surfaces at Stoke Courtney and John told me he'd used Chinchilla dust.

https://content-eu.invisioncic.com/y320084/monthly_2022_05/y1.jpg.831733e2cde6ae49d20bb0dc4494377e.jpg

 

As that's not available here I did some searching around and found that finely sieved gypsum seemed promising.  Haven't don't much more since but initial post is here.

 

It's a very fine texture and could be poured in between tracks, tamped down and glued with dilute PVA. My gypsum has a pink/ orange tinge but when I followed by applied a dilute cream acrylic paint / PVA I got the result shown. More grey would be easy.

 

 

Colin

 

 

I have been researching the state of the ballast at Helston via photos dating from the 1920s to the 1960s.

 

In the 1920s there is clear evidence of typical stone ballast on the main lines and most of the sidings and spurs and with the ash / cinder of the goods yard a little below sleeper level. There are no shoulders visible anywhere beyond the station throat and back siding spur. The line that is most affected by build up of clogging material at this stage is the loop that runs under the crane and through the goods shed. It may well be that this is deliberate as road vehicles would need to get there to pick up loads from the crane and shed. There are local bad spots such as in the loco shed line by the ash pit and coaling stage as would be expected. I don't have a photo of the coal unloading area at the far end of the station but suspect it too would be clogged with a build up of coal dust etc. This is the period I plan to model so will need to build up the ground around the sidings before adding an ash / cinder layer.

http://www.rosewarnejunction.me.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/helstonfrombridgeearly10june1920_small.jpg

 

Over the years the general debris builds up so in the 1940s the platform track is quite clogged with the actual ballast less visible but the run-around loop still showing a fair amount between sleepers. By the 1950s there is not much evidence of ballast anywhere at all, but the track is at least free of weeds. By the 1960s we additionally have lots of grass and weeds growing, even on the main approach line.

http://www.rosewarnejunction.me.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/helstonboxengineshedandbridge1930ssmall.jpg

http://www.rosewarnejunction.me.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/helstonloadingbay1950ssmall.jpg

http://www.rosewarnejunction.me.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/helstonstationatendofsteam_small.jpg

 

The colour pictures from the 1960s also show quite a variation in sleeper colour from weathered grey through brown to almost black. I will use a mix of colours with darker patches where locos would have stood or coal unloading would have happened.

 

In all its quite an interesting process just looking at this one characteristic of a GWR BLT over a 40 year timespan.

Andy

Edited June 16, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

I think I will try laying 1mm cork sheet over the yard area and then paint this and sprinkle ash into the paint, following some of the ideas from the Missenden video, and see how it goes (test bits first of course). The sleepers are about 1.5mm thick so this should work OK. I will use standard ballast on the track and then clog this up where needed, but as noted above not very much in most areas.

I think I will also use the cork sheet to sink the bottom 1mm of the yard buildings into the layout so even if not glued down they will not have light showing under them. Given my goods shed has to be removable as it spans two boards this will need to be a fairly exact fit to work well.

Andy

[Graham T]

Good idea to sink the buildings in, I think.