Helston Revisited

[Andy Keane]

1 minute ago, gwrrob said:

 

A brilliant reference collection @Andy Keaneand I highly recommend them. Irwell Press are retiring but I think someone else is talking their stock.

Smuggling them in past the management would be tricky. There is a bit of a one book in one book out policy at the moment. I am also tempted by the TE Williams lost colour series. Ho hum!

[The Stationmaster]

On 24/04/2023 at 16:00, Andy Keane said:

I think these were mostly sold from Korea as bare brass models and then painted to the customer’s choice. Maybe that customer was less well informed than we are today? I have two other Korean brass locos, a Samhongsa 45xx and a Dongjin 45xx. The Samhongsa one has a much better chassis construction. They come up on eBay a fair bit but good running ones typically make over £200. They don’t really stack up against a new RTR from Rapido and co, but I am rather fond of them as being a bit vintage / old school.

I never saw one being sold from new in painted condition - they were always in original \'brass' finsh (although some of that might have been paint or lacquer.  from what i can remember of them - and it's years since  saw one up close - the ti op feed wasa. separate lost wax casting - presumably soldered to the body.  A phoyo I''ve just found on line also suggests that the top feed is a separate fitting, while the pipework to the top feed is similarly separate and not part of the body itself although the section under cladding down the tank side to the injector appears to be firmly soldered to the tanks

 

Interestingly the price seems to be running ahead of inflation - about 17 years ago you could pick up one in running condition for c.£90, unpainted and it was unusual ro see one go for more than £110.  The condensing 97XX version usually went for a bit less than the others.

 

Old liveries did tend to linger on GEWWR tank engines and they don't seem to have been well painteed by some works so I suppose it is just possible a very dirty 5764 could be in that livery.  My experience on GWR small tank engines is never say never when it comes to outdated liveries hidden on them under all the muck.  But alas for you it is more than likely that the engine was repainted when it was re-boilered with a top feed fitted boiler which would have happened at a general overhaul.

 

On 24/04/2023 at 17:13, gwrrob said:

 

A brilliant reference collection @Andy Keaneand I highly recommend them. Irwell Press are retiring but I think someone else is talking their stock.

Irwell's remaining stock, and one of the people who have run it, plus several books in preparation, are coming under the Strathwood banner.

[Andy Keane]

21 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I never saw one being sold from new in painted condition - they were always in original \'brass' finsh (although some of that might have been paint or lacquer.  from what i can remember of them - and it's years since  saw one up close - the ti op feed wasa. separate lost wax casting - presumably soldered to the body.  A phoyo I''ve just found on line also suggests that the top feed is a separate fitting, while the pipework to the top feed is similarly separate and not part of the body itself although the section under cladding down the tank side to the injector appears to be firmly soldered to the tanks

 

Interestingly the price seems to be running ahead of inflation - about 17 years ago you could pick up one in running condition for c.£90, unpainted and it was unusual ro see one go for more than £110.  The condensing 97XX version usually went for a bit less than the others.

 

Old liveries did tend to linger on GEWWR tank engines and they don't seem to have been well painteed by some works so I suppose it is just possible a very dirty 5764 could be in that livery.  My experience on GWR small tank engines is never say never when it comes to outdated liveries hidden on them under all the muck.  But alas for you it is more than likely that the engine was repainted when it was re-boilered with a top feed fitted boiler which would have happened at a general overhaul.

 

Irwell's remaining stock, and one of the people who have run it, plus several books in preparation, are coming under the Strathwood banner.

I see The Model Centre (TMC) have a bare brass Korean 45xx for sale for £170

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256055273128?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m43.l1120&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=d8f1176ed65c45a3ad4a3b7f9ad0c67d&bu=43054345708&ut=RU&exe=0&ext=0&osub=-1~1&crd=20230426064906&segname=11021

Maybe prices on those are softening because of the Rapido announcement, though looking at the photo I think this is one of the DongJin chassis locos - it has screws for main crankpins while the Samhongsa ones have proper nuts. I got one of each some time ago and as I have mentioned above the Samhongsa chassis is definitely the better of the two.

[MrWolf]

Wasn't it Fulgurex in Japan who made those brass Castles back in the 1970s?

[Andy Keane]

49 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

Wasn't it Fulgurex in Japan who made those brass Castles back in the 1970s?

A bit like this King perhaps?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/363740726921?hash=item54b0a30689:g:cqkAAOSwpJNgPmK7&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4JzWdpXUyAZFTFNlw4ZuaY21WE7UC9XONv%2BdoF15sCmO4bgGzb%2B6U0pQZVCaY3L6y%2Bv1rJgdNxt4%2BTscuoG%2BBKKpCrbv%2BbSnFvnJHpvyc%2FU0ZkQuh1g3w3W0mqNxwbaM0ubWeAyMn1MIyy6cYR9Zi1%2Ff1plJYWRkpvwXzIvNeGIxDQi3Bs4Ye3QX8m83hAnfryJ0LarkURFMoICWvc7g62vMZ%2BJx%2FCd4xmqk6FwwGv8157fndifM8xGEEe9Rigji7JDNTDv3ssZ4ITGdEvdczrzAFd4R9x9rExmFfIa55zia|tkp%3ABk9SR4KHxeX3YQ

And I see a running 57xx for sale there too for £335 so my purchase for £60 seems OK:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370616942904?hash=item564a7dc138:g:k-8AAOSwbWZaaORf&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwLy5LTQv%2BKjZuo8wo0o71YuOgDO4v7lO%2F9Zp50g%2BqUa7F17X0LBmZEAWBoC%2B5188F8yXyqdiY2aPWvuZSpEt%2FynxhQ4J%2F69xSMA9O%2B9OC2bJS%2B9MtoqtDZgGaaVPV8uxSgPsyZY6MtKXbO0xbgir%2FdWiq997dhAhLicbrmwe%2BhRteg4PaDwZDWt1akGLu4SNvzM1ywP26%2BnUMSh2rINjuKosZdJP6%2BD96FvNBGr4l6R2XHaZllSWoxuOi7PLrI%2Bz0w%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_y41eX3YQ

Edited April 26, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

Apart from forays onto eBay and the odd kit build my main task is currently building the landscape structure at the far carriage shed end of Helston.

This part of the station was built originally on a plain embankment which by the time I am modelling had had a very stout retaining wall added on the goods shed side to allow an unloading area to be constructed alongside the goods spur by infilling between the wall and embankment (we think at the behest of the Helston Gas Works for their coal traffic).

This wall (or at least the latest version of it) is still there and will be relatively simple to construct with a sheet of vertical curved 3mm ply.

On the carriage shed siding the old embankment is still there and I am trying to figure out how best to capture it as it is curved, increases in height as the ground falls away and my baseboards are not strictly accurate in terms of heights. My current feeling is that the eye rather expects embankment sides to be steeper than they really are.

From what I can find on NR sites they would typically be between 1.5 to 1 and 2 to 1, whereas I always imagine them as 1 to 1 or steeper (i.e., 45 degrees or more).

Some serious pondering will be required and maybe some photos posted here for advice.

[Andy Keane]

I have now fixed up the chassis on the Samhongsa 57xx. It needed one new suspension spring making and fitting where the original had been lost (these have six little springs, one for each hornblock). I repaired one of the original plunger contacts and refitted it but the second I replaced with a new Alan Gibson plunger so I could fit one opposite it on the earth side. With moving hornblocks and springs, just relying on these to earth one side to the track is always a bit hit and miss in my view so the back up of a plunger adds insurance.

Here is the repaired plunger in place:

And here are the dual Alan Gibson plungers (where you can also see the hornblock springs - the motor is loose at this point during testing):

I am just awaiting the new universal joint to replace the original rubber tube coupling to the gearbox and hopefully she will run happily under DC.

Still not sure if I can justify converting here to a full YouChoos DCC setup given the mismatch on livery / top feed and the fact they never went to Helston.

But it is a nice little loco so I may just do it anyway and invoke rule 1.

[The Stationmaster]

On 26/04/2023 at 17:15, Andy Keane said:

A bit like this King perhaps?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/363740726921?hash=item54b0a30689:g:cqkAAOSwpJNgPmK7&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4JzWdpXUyAZFTFNlw4ZuaY21WE7UC9XONv%2BdoF15sCmO4bgGzb%2B6U0pQZVCaY3L6y%2Bv1rJgdNxt4%2BTscuoG%2BBKKpCrbv%2BbSnFvnJHpvyc%2FU0ZkQuh1g3w3W0mqNxwbaM0ubWeAyMn1MIyy6cYR9Zi1%2Ff1plJYWRkpvwXzIvNeGIxDQi3Bs4Ye3QX8m83hAnfryJ0LarkURFMoICWvc7g62vMZ%2BJx%2FCd4xmqk6FwwGv8157fndifM8xGEEe9Rigji7JDNTDv3ssZ4ITGdEvdczrzAFd4R9x9rExmFfIa55zia|tkp%3ABk9SR4KHxeX3YQ

And I see a running 57xx for sale there too for £335 so my purchase for £60 seems OK:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370616942904?hash=item564a7dc138:g:k-8AAOSwbWZaaORf&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAAwLy5LTQv%2BKjZuo8wo0o71YuOgDO4v7lO%2F9Zp50g%2BqUa7F17X0LBmZEAWBoC%2B5188F8yXyqdiY2aPWvuZSpEt%2FynxhQ4J%2F69xSMA9O%2B9OC2bJS%2B9MtoqtDZgGaaVPV8uxSgPsyZY6MtKXbO0xbgir%2FdWiq997dhAhLicbrmwe%2BhRteg4PaDwZDWt1akGLu4SNvzM1ywP26%2BnUMSh2rINjuKosZdJP6%2BD96FvNBGr4l6R2XHaZllSWoxuOi7PLrI%2Bz0w%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_y41eX3YQ

There were, I think, originally three brass models and I believe Rulgurex had something to do with all three.  As far as I know they were imported bya company called John Underhill in Reading, but there might later have been a different importer for the two GW engines- I say that because Underhill's shop seemed to have them long before anyone else had even heard of them.  The first was an LMS Crab then - a while later - came the 'Castle' and 'King' although I'm not sure in which order those two appeared.  

 

And they were hellish expensive - I think the Crab was somewhere in the £30-40 bracket which back then was several weeks wages for anyone on average pay.  The two GW engines were even more expensive but it cost nothing to look at them in the shop window.   

Edited April 30, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[Andy Keane]

9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

There were, I think, originally three brass models and I believe Rulgurex had something to do with all three.  As far as I know they were imported bya company called John Underhill in Reading, but there might later have been a different importer for the two GW engines- I say that because Underhill's shop seemed to have them long before anyone else had even heard of them.  The first was an LMS Crab then - a while later - came the 'Castle' and 'King' although I'm not sure in which order those two appeared.  

 

And they were hellish expensive - I think the Crab was somewhere in the £30-40 bracket which back then was several weeks wages for anyone on average pay.  The two GW engines were even more expensive but it cost nothing to look at them in the shop window.   

That King does look nice. A pity it is not in pre-nationalisation GWR livery.

[Andy Keane]

This is the structure at the far end of the platform where there was a way out with suitable sign on the platform. The hole in the main platform is where the station building sits. Currently these bits of platform are not yet bedded down either.

Not much of this remains but the wall down to the footpath alongside station road is still there. Its a bit steeper in reality than mine but few will notice and I thought a very steep platform end would have looked wrong.

Next I have to continue the embankment down to the end of the line:

 

 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

I have now added the supports for the embankment side on the station approach and the retaining wall on the goods yard approach. The formers were water jet cut from a bit of scrap ply board and glued in place with two pack epoxy. The bulk of this will get covered in a skin of 3mm ply. In the end I went for about a 40 degree slope on the formers but this will reduce at the bottom as it flares into the station approach road (and where I need to leave enough ground for the post and wire fence etc). When all is completed some long way in the future it will be covered in bushes of various kinds and maybe even a small tree. I am not yet decided how to form the shape around the very end where there is lots of curvature - any suggestions most welcome, but in the end plaster bandage may be the simple solution.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Harlequin]

Can you tell us more about water jet cutting of the ply, please, Andy? It sounds interesting!

Any reason for using that method in particular?

Did that cut the circular holes as well as the basic shapes?

 

To get a nice curve at the end I guess you need some material with a bit of natural springiness so that it forms the curve when you wrap it around the formers.

 

[Andy Keane]

11 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Can you tell us more about water jet cutting of the ply, please, Andy? It sounds interesting!

Any reason for using that method in particular?

Did that cut the circular holes as well as the basic shapes?

 

To get a nice curve at the end I guess you need some material with a bit of natural springiness so that it forms the curve when you wrap it around the formers.

 

When you get above about 5mm thickness laser cutting of ply tends to char the upper surface while it gets enough heat to cut right through. Water jet cutters can cut up to 150mm steel plate so walk through ply like butter - they use a hypersonic jet of water (see for example https://www.wardjet.com/products/m-2540/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=uk-search ). They are very clean as well. There are only two issues - one you have to submerge the part during cutting so the ply in my case spent about ten minutes under water. And secondly water jet cutters cost serious money and are not really a home tool. There are various online companies that can do this. And yes the wiring / lightening holes were all in the CAD file used by the jet cutter. All 18 parts were made in a single cut of about 90 seconds.

 

As to the curve I am currently planning on using aluminium mesh staple gunned to the formers to start with and then either fibreglass or plaster bandage, no doubt followed by filler to get it smooth unless anyone has a better idea! So the mention of springiness is making me wonder if I got lots of small strips of very thin ply and built it up that way.

 

regards

Andy

 

[Andy Keane]

I am slowly plugging on with the board structure - the embankment now has most of its side and I will shortly PVA in a block of foam for the slope, see photo below.

This will just leave the pesky end curve. I have been pondering and am now think about this:

1. make a card former that wraps around this end - it is basically like an ice cream cone that is partly unwrapped
2. use the former to cut out a matching aluminium mesh
3. glue on the card
4. staple on the mesh
5. brush coat the mesh with fibreglass resin so it goes hard - the card layer should stop it all dripping through
6. overcoat with fine tissue and resin to cover up the mesh and stiffen things
7. run over the top with some filler and sand smooth

I will try this out on some scrap first though and I may opt for a water based resin which we use at work to cover foam aircraft wings.

 

I really want to get through this as all the posts on Chufnell Regis on carriages and locos are making me agitated!

Andy

Edited May 7, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Graham T]

Sorry to be an agitator!  Have you considered plaster bandage instead of fiberglass?  Might be easier to manage.

 

[Andy Keane]

57 minutes ago, Graham T said:

Sorry to be an agitator!  Have you considered plaster bandage instead of fiberglass?  Might be easier to manage.

 

No worries. It was all that chat by others about carriage collections that makes me want to get back to things that roll! 
I have thought about plaster but worry it might crack when the boards get manhandled. But I did buy a roll to play with on Saturday.

[mallaig1983]

Thegreenhowards has used fibreglass/car bodyfiller on his O gauge Glenfinnan layout. A very recent post on that thread and he wasn’t keen on the results. Difficult to manage and very messy. Perhaps worth a look before you commit.

[BWsTrains]

Andy,

I used a timber base 2x1"; Aluminium tube risers (0.5" ex an old antenna); thin flat timbers between the risers and heavy nylon fishing line strung as a criss-cross to provide support for the top. This was paper / papier mache with a final plaster topping. The end result perhaps owed its stability to the flexibility of the substructure as it never cracked, despite the plaster layer being quite thin. A bit of PVA in the blend probably helped. The entire end was designed to be removable and was not very heavy. As a certain Mr Morecombe used to say, "you can't see the join"

 

It served as a cover for a tunnel and I was very happy with the final appearance despite not knowing what I was doing at the time. It formed one complete end of a tiny layout barely 8' * 4'

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by BWsTrains
addn

[Andy Keane]

9 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

Andy,

I used a timber base 2x1"; Aluminium tube risers (0.5" ex an old antenna); thin flat timbers between the risers and heavy nylon fishing line strung as a criss-cross to provide support for the top. This was paper / papier mache with a final plaster topping. The end result perhaps owed its stability to the flexibility of the substructure as it never cracked, despite the plaster layer being quite thin. A bit of PVA in the blend probably helped. The entire end was designed to be removable and was not very heavy. As a certain Mr Morecombe used to say, "you can't see the join"

 

It served as a cover for a tunnel and I was very happy with the final appearance despite not knowing what I was doing at the time. It formed one complete end of a tiny layout barely 8' * 4'

 

 

 

 

 

 

That looks really good. And the covering is impressive - is that mostly scatter rather than static grass?

[Andy Keane]

This video shows a method of applying fibreglass that we use at work. It is much less messy than polyester resin based methods. It is very good at providing a tough skin. Not so sure about fully self supporting fibreglass but I plan to experiment with it.

This is the current aircraft modeller's product:

https://deluxematerials.co.uk/products/eze-kote?_pos=1&_sid=e4a02d70a&_ss=r

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

I promised more photos of my running-in board attempts.

On the left below we have a 3D waterslide transfer and on the right brass etched letters painted by your ham-fisted correspondent.

I have another one to do with waterslide and that I will try and get a bit more central in the frame.

The etched letters are certainly more three-dimensional but clearly not as crisp as the waterslide.

 

One thing I don't know is how many boards Helston had - there was one at the entrance end of the platform next to the signal box (very much in the running-in position) but I have never found a photo showing one at the far end of the platform and am unsure if the GWR would have placed one there. Clearly modern stations have lots of these but given Helston was the end of the line it would never have been approached from the far end by passenger workings so maybe there was no need for a running-in board there? Perhaps somebody with deeper knowledge can advise?

Edited May 8, 2023 by Andy Keane

[BWsTrains]

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

That looks really good. And the covering is impressive - is that mostly scatter rather than static grass?

 

It's simply Noch " Classic Flock" a mix of Light and Medium green Refs 07302 and 07304, nothing else. As I said I knew nothing about landscaping so went to Hobby Co in Sydney one time when we were up there. The railway modelling guy gave me excellent advice, I just painted the plaster a mix of diluted brown washes then PVA then sprinkled on the flock a little at a time with sprays of dilute PVA once each application had dried.

 

TBH I couldn't believe how well it came out given I was a rank beginner.

 

PS the darker green alongside the stream / waterfall is a later addition of Woodland  Scenic Coarse turf T64

Edited May 8, 2023 by BWsTrains
PS

[Graham T]

20 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

I promised more photos of my running-in board attempts.

On the left below we have a 3D waterslide transfer and on the right brass etched letters painted by your ham-fisted correspondent.

I have another one to do with waterslide and that I will try and get a bit more central in the frame.

The etched letters are certainly more three-dimensional but clearly not as crisp as the waterslide.

 

One thing I don't know is how many boards Helston had - there was one at the entrance end of the platform next to the signal box (very much in the running-in position) but I have never found a photo showing one at the far end of the platform and am unsure if the GWR would have placed one there. Clearly modern stations have lots of these but given Helston was the end of the line it would never have been approached from the far end by passenger workings so maybe there was no need for a running-in board there? Perhaps somebody with deeper knowledge can advise?

 

The waterslide definitely looks better, and I'd probably be happy with the one you've got there if I was you!  I don't know about the number of boards, but my gut feeling is that there would only have been one.

 

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, BWsTrains said:

 

It's simply Noch " Classic Flock" a mix of Light and Medium green Refs 07302 and 07304, nothing else. As I said I knew nothing about landscaping so went to Hobby Co in Sydney one time when we were up there. The railway modelling guy gave me excellent advice, I just painted the plaster a mix of diluted brown washes then PVA then sprinkled on the flock a little at a time with sprays of dilute PVA once each application had dried.

 

TBH I couldn't believe how well it came out given I was a rank beginner.

 

PS the darker green alongside the stream / waterfall is a later addition of Woodland  Scenic Coarse turf T64

What I find interesting is that it looks so good without static grass. I too am a beginner at scenery construction and I sometimes wonder if people overdo the static grass. But I guess it may not be easy to blend the two methods together convincingly.

[Neal Ball]

Definitely only one running-in board.

 

However, all of the lamps would probably have had a piece of blue glass at the top with the station name.

 

At Henley, it was only in BR days that running-in boards were provided, but I decided it didn’t look right!