Helston Revisited

[Andy Keane]

On 17/03/2024 at 09:55, Miss Prism said:

Yes, tank tops, footplate and splasher tops in black, tool boxes and sandboxes in crimson. Here's a Lee Marsh chocolate 517 for a guide (except for the lining of course!!)

 

Looking at this photo am I correct in thinking the sandbox operating links and filler lids would be black even though the boxes are to crimson? Also what about all the hand rails? black, crimson or dark steel?

[Miss Prism]

You meant brown of course, not crimson!

 

Yes, I would assume sandbox operating rods were black, as were filler lids and toolbox tops.

 

Handrails would vary according to era - the earlier approx pre-WWI era (see here and here) were burnished, along with smokebox hinges etc, whereas, given the alleged longevity of the brown livery, I think would be dark steel for post-WWI era.

 

I do wonder how long the brown valence lasted - it's ok for an initial 1905-ish appearance, but non-black valences had disappeared from other locos from 1906 onward, so why would the 517s be different? I have to check myself for being logical in many livery questions however, because we know the GWR wasn't always logical.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

You meant brown of course, not crimson!

 

Yes, I would assume sandbox operating rods were black, as were filler lids and toolbox tops.

 

Handrails would vary according to era - the earlier approx pre-WWI era (see here and here) were burnished, along with smokebox hinges etc, whereas, given the alleged longevity of the brown livery, I think would be dark steel for post-WWI era.

 

I do wonder how long the brown valence lasted - it's ok for an initial 1905-ish appearance, but non-black valences had disappeared from other locos from 1906 onward, so why would the 517s be different? I have to check myself for being logical in many livery questions however, because we know the GWR wasn't always logical.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My plan is a crimson loco - so just post WW1 - just for fun assuming maybe at least one 517 got that treatment and to match the autocoach I have on order. I will go with dark steel rails and black linkages as you suggest, and a black valance.

[Miss Prism]

There were a number of crimson 517s, but I don't think we know how many. Being associated with passenger use, I guess they had enclosed cabs with their piano-type bunkers, like 1157.

[Andy Keane]

Now I may be getting ahead of myself but I have been dreaming of running this little 517 around Helston. But it made me wonder about how autocoach trains dealt with attached vacuum fitted brown vehicles such as small Siphons or horseboxes. Given the locos propelled the autocoach into Helston on down trains, I assume the attached wagon would be behind the loco and the autocoach in front (I think I may have even seen a photo of such a combination at some other station). But how did these brown vehicles then get shunted? Presumably on departure for the up service, any wagon going with the autocoach train would have been right at the rear. Would the loco have been uncoupled to do the shunting or would the whole loco and autocoach have done it as a single unit - which seems mad to me. My apologies in advance for my ignorance on such matters!

Edited June 29 by Andy Keane

[Miss Prism]

Only autotrailers could be pushed. 'Tail traffic' was never pushed afaik.

 

Loco and autotrailer remained coupled, normally. Delinking the auto gear was a pain, but did probably happen when an extensive bout of shunting was required.

 

[BWsTrains]

17 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Now I may be getting ahead of myself but I have been dreaming of running this little 517 around Helston. But it made me wonder about how autocoach trains dealt with attached vacuum fitted brown vehicles such as small Siphons or horseboxes. Given the locos propelled the autocoach into Helston on down trains, I assume the attached wagon would be behind the loco and the autocoach in front (I think I may have even seen a photo of such a combination at some other station). But how did these brown vehicles then get shunted? Presumably on departure for the up service, any wagon going with the autocoach train would have been right at the rear. Would the loco have been uncoupled to do the shunting or would the whole loco and autocoach have done it as a single unit - which seems mad to me.

 

15 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Only autotrailers could be pushed. 'Tail traffic' was never pushed afaik.

 

Loco and autotrailer remained coupled, normally. Delinking the auto gear was a pain, but did probably happen when an extensive bout of shunting was required.

 

 

These are interesting questions and responses of interest to me regarding my planned operations at Upper Hembury. 

 

Based on contemporaneous photos which I've been able to find online and the operations on of what I'd classify as layouts of "serious" GWR modellers, I'd decided that I'd be running autocoach / 48xx only combinations with some tail goods stock added in on occasional runs. Brown vehicles would be scheduled onto mixed and goods trains pulled by other than 48xx locos.

 

As to what happened at very small stations with moderate traffic in the 1920s and 30s e.g. Wallingford, served by only 517 type and later 48xxs, I can only guess that the NCCPS movements were highly restricted at best as only standard tail goods stock movements are listed by Karau amongst 18 return trains per weekday .

 

Otherwise, running NCCPS on the branch via autotrains, the shunting problems @Miss Prism raises would be a serious impediment to such regular operations.

Edited June 30 by BWsTrains

[Neal Ball]

Can I think aloud for a second?

 

We have all seen the photos of the AEC/GWR diesel railcars on the Lambourn branch with a tail load... the Hemyock branch had mixed trains - but I don't think they were autocoaches.

 

My question therefore is - mixed trains Yes! - but with a Pannier tank.... I can not recall seeing a 48xx / Autocoach and trailing vans etc. in true Auto mode.

 

Is there photographic evidence?

Thanks

[BWsTrains]

3 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Can I think aloud for a second?

 

We have all seen the photos of the AEC/GWR diesel railcars on the Lambourn branch with a tail load... the Hemyock branch had mixed trains - but I don't think they were autocoaches.

 

My question therefore is - mixed trains Yes! - but with a Pannier tank.... I can not recall seeing a 48xx / Autocoach and trailing vans etc. in true Auto mode.

 

Is there photographic evidence?

Thanks

 

I have two different photos, noted by me to be of 1411 with autocoach(es) and mixed freight. In one the loco has uncoupled from the autocoaches and is in process of running around. As I'm unsure of the source and collected them over 7 years ago I'm reluctant to post pics on here. I'll take a new peek in case I can find a link to either of them.

[BWsTrains]

29 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Can I think aloud for a second?

 

We have all seen the photos of the AEC/GWR diesel railcars on the Lambourn branch with a tail load... the Hemyock branch had mixed trains - but I don't think they were autocoaches.

 

My question therefore is - mixed trains Yes! - but with a Pannier tank.... I can not recall seeing a 48xx / Autocoach and trailing vans etc. in true Auto mode.

 

Is there photographic evidence?

Thanks

 

A quick search turned up this thumbnail reference to an RMWeb image so I can't see how copyright can be an issue here.

 

It seems to be something to do with 1411 on the Marlow Donkey. Inevitably, the posts in the topic were full of dead links due to the great meltdown so a better copy was missing.

 

This link has most useful info confirming modes of operation for mixed autotrains

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrb771.htm

 

 

Edited June 30 by BWsTrains

[Andy Keane]

17 minutes ago, BWsTrains said:

This link has most useful info confirming modes of operation for mixed autotrains

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrb771.htm

A very interesting link - clearly there is some limited shunting / marshalling going on with the loco trundling around with its autocoach - which sounds like fun when for we operate Helston. And again it notes the operation "with the engine sandwiched in the middle" - which is what I assumed had to happen at Helston too. All I need is my crimson autocoach to arrive and to finish of the 517 and I will be all set.

 

It also raises the further question about what happened when the loco went for coal and water - I am guessing the poor old autocoach followed that too! At least at Helston the pair would be the right way around to do that without the coach disappearing into the engine shed and beyond.

 

Andy

[Miss Prism]

Wallingford

 

 

[Mike_Walker]

4 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Can I think aloud for a second?

 

We have all seen the photos of the AEC/GWR diesel railcars on the Lambourn branch with a tail load... the Hemyock branch had mixed trains - but I don't think they were autocoaches.

 

My question therefore is - mixed trains Yes! - but with a Pannier tank.... I can not recall seeing a 48xx / Autocoach and trailing vans etc. in true Auto mode.

 

Is there photographic evidence?

Thanks

 

Here's a better version of a sadly poor original that is in our collection -  Marlow & District Railway Society and taken by the late Norman Aston-Smith.

 

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

Wallingford

 

 

Interesting photo. I assume that is an autocoach in the platform? And that seems to be an odd place to unload coal.

[Harlequin]

32 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Interesting photo. I assume that is an autocoach in the platform? And that seems to be an odd place to unload coal.

That is the gas works siding kicking back off the engine shed spur. A more unlikely track plan is hard to imagine, and yet, there it is...

 

[Andy Keane]

Looking through the GWRJ I notice that on page 129, No 27, Summer 1998 there is a nice photo of a 48xx auto train with the coach leading and a horsebox behind the loco - exactly the sort of thing I plan at Helston.

[Miss Prism]

51 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

And that seems to be an odd place to unload coal.

 

Yes. It seems that coaling at Wallingford was often a bit 'irregular'. Rather than using the coal stage (coal from wagon unloaded onto the stage, and then onto the loco), the coaling wagon was parked very close to the crossover, and the loco sat on the middle of the crossover - coal thus went directly from wagon to bunker.

 

More info on Wallingford

 

[57xx]

On 28/06/2024 at 18:06, Andy Keane said:

Phil, it does seem to cover pretty well - its a nice red/maroon and quite a dense paint, so even when I thin it down to spray I hope it will cover well on the loco,

 

It is a nice paint. I only did one coat over, I think, white undercoat on this lorry.

[BWsTrains]

7 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Yes. It seems that coaling at Wallingford was often a bit 'irregular'. Rather than using the coal stage (coal from wagon unloaded onto the stage, and then onto the loco), the coaling wagon was parked very close to the crossover, and the loco sat on the middle of the crossover - coal thus went directly from wagon to bunker.

 

 

A fascinating Wallingford photo to add to my collection.

 

The coaling stage can be seen to be reasonably stocked behind and to right of the loco bunker. If coaling was done on the crossover as Miss Prism says (and I'm not doubting her wisdom and information) then presumably this is an "after" shot with quite a bit of spillage. No other reason for so much coal being deposited right at that point.

 

The worker is walking away from the spill, shovel in hand while a pick lies on the heap.

 

All rather enigmatic - that is unless it's the true back story to the old one about how to confuse a navvie; show him a spade and a shovel and ask him to take his pick!

 

 

 

 

Also noteworthy is a "during" shot. The water tank inspection door is open with signs there is someone up there. Why was this necessary from time to time?

 

 

 

 

[Andy Keane]

Here is the stable block fully bedded in with horse and driver, and manure pile to the right! I am assuming the actual carts were left down the slope in the main goods yard.

Edited July 1 by Andy Keane

[Neal Ball]

35 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Here is the stable block fully bedded in with horse and driver, and manure pile to the right! I am assuming the actual carts were left down the slope in the main goods yard.

 

Thats a lovely looking model Andy.

[Andy Keane]

I am next looking at the fencing on top of the long wall at the bottom end of the station. This was a cast iron and steel tube affair with three rails. I am using the Markits extra long three rail brass parts for the stantions and 0.6mm piano wire for the rails. Do we think this would be painted light stone as per normal GWR pailings or might the stantions have been black with bare steel rails?

[Gilbert]

Andy..on the subject of paints - can I ask what make of paints your are using for your building stone shades?

Chris

[BWsTrains]

8 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Here is the stable block fully bedded in with horse and driver, and manure pile to the right!

 

Very nice model, whose kit is it, or by your own hands perchance?

 

From the GWR plans and drawings which I've seen, the manure pit typically was taller and enclosed on three sides, with an opening on the fourth as per the Timbertracks 7mm model of Westbury. The opening might be to the side or facing forwards.

 

 

Edited July 1 by BWsTrains

[Mikkel]

15 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Here is the stable block fully bedded in with horse and driver, and manure pile to the right! I am assuming the actual carts were left down the slope in the main goods yard.

 

Hi Andy, what an excellent result!