Chuffnell Regis

[Graham T]

37 minutes ago, Fishplate said:

I raise you a leg @MrWolf and give you a flock of grazing sheep who no longer have their heads munching grass 🐏 but have turned into train spotting sheep. Take one sharp knife etc

 

Photos from 2010 of my Mk1 layout scratch built cattle dock with my impression of New Romney (ie Southern Railway) sheep (other breeds of sheep are available to suit GWR areas).

 

I think some of the sheep are a bit too un-white though. 

 

 

 

 

 

Those sheep look rather tidy to me John - nice work on modifying them.  I don't think I'd have the patience (see my recent post!)  I wonder if @NHY 581 will drop by to give an opinion?

[Andy Keane]

18 minutes ago, Graham T said:

 

Andy, you've opened a can of worms there - stand by for a discussion of when GWR stopped using lime on cattle trucks 🙂

 

Speaking of which, I've been wondering what to do this evening whilst trying to be patient and not varnish 3205's tender...  Pottering about with a mixed herd of Bachmann and Dapol cattle trucks is climbing towards the top of the list.  The Bachmann ones are very nice, but spotlessly clean.  The Dapol variants are far less nice, and need some work to bring them up to scratch.  Also, a couple them are "pre-weathered", which looks pretty abysmal in my humble opinion.  And they all need couplings.  I see a busy evening ahead!

Fully agree about Bachmann versus Dapol cattle trucks. I have a few Bachmann ones including the lime washed type which at first I thought very odd until I saw some photos that they resemble very well. At Helston they had two uses though - cattle and broccoli - I am assuming the broccoli ones did not get the lime of course.

Andy 

[Graham T]

It would have made for an interesting flavour, I suppose...

[Graham T]

Before I start hacking about my cattle wagons, I'm hoping that one of the many gurus residing here at RMWeb might be able to help me out.  I'm assuming that these, as they are marked XP, would have vacuum pipes and screw link couplings?

 

 

But what about these?  Vacuum pipes?  Screw or three links?

 

 

Thanks!  🍻

[Sasquatch]

The LMS types in the second image were not fitted with vacuum brakes.

The Dapol types would benefit from the addition of bars across the open portion too! They're actually BR ones in GW livery.

Edit: A pair of door bangs under each drop-down lower door are also missing as are the tie bars!! 

 

Regards Shaun

Edited August 12, 2022 by Sasquatch

[Graham T]

Thanks for that Shaun.  I was planning to add the bars, but hadn't thought about door bangs.

 

I just checked and the Bachmann ones do have door bangs fitted (of course).

[MrWolf]

Probably someone else can confirm, but weren't they designed by the GWR and adopted by BR as a standard design? Nowhere near my books at the moment.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by MrWolf

[Sasquatch]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Great Western regarded all livestock traffic as priority later in its existance and thus fitted all it's livestock vehicles. BR adopted the same policy later on too I believe not they they conveyed much livestock, most of which was in the north of Scotland.

 

The only difference between the GWRs diagram and the standard BR dias.1/352 & 1/353 was the top door design.

[37Oban]

2 hours ago, Graham T said:

 

Not to mention the black sheep, of course.  If you don't know who that is in your family - then it's probably you!

I think it could me, but more of a dark grey!

[MrWolf]

If you are modelling wagons that aren't vacuum braked, they don't have the tiebars between the axles.

[Graham T]

5 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

If you are modelling wagons that aren't vacuum braked, they don't have the tiebars between the axles.

 

Does that also mean that the GWR ones should have tiebars added?

[Graham T]

53 minutes ago, Sasquatch said:

The LMS types in the second image were not fitted with vacuum brakes.

The Dapol types would benefit from the addition of bars across the open portion too! They're actually BR ones in GW livery.

Edit: A pair of door bangs under each drop-down lower door are also missing as are the tie bars!! 

 

Regards Shaun

 

That is one very battered looking wagon!

[MrWolf]

4 minutes ago, Graham T said:

 

Does that also mean that the GWR ones should have tiebars added?

 

Only if they are set up with power brakes so that they can travel in passenger trains or express goods. The bars are there to prevent the W irons distorting under heavy braking. Non fitted wagons don't have this problem. I remember having a similar discussion with @Bluemonkey presents....on his thread as we were both working on earlier W1 diagram cattle wagons, some of which were rebuilt with vacuum brakes to diagram W5. These were the old Cooper Craft kits which are no longer produced.

[Graham T]

10 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

 

Only if they are set up with power brakes so that they can travel in passenger trains or express goods. The bars are there to prevent the W irons distorting under heavy braking. Non fitted wagons don't have this problem. I remember having a similar discussion with @Bluemonkey presents....on his thread as we were both working on earlier W1 diagram cattle wagons, some of which were rebuilt with vacuum brakes to diagram W5. These were the old Cooper Craft kits which are no longer produced.

 

I'm way beyond the limits of my knowledge here, I'm afraid (now there's a surprise!)  Does the XP marking then indicate a wagon that could travel in passenger or express goods trains, and so it should have tiebars?

 

In essence, XP marked = vacuum pipes, tiebars, screwlinks

Not XP marked = may or not be vacuum fitted; if fitted, would have tiebars and screwlinks; if not, no tiebars and three links

 

Apologies for being a bit of a dullard...

[Graham T]

Another question...  Are power brakes and vacuum-fitted synonymous?

[31A]

3 minutes ago, Graham T said:

 

I'm way beyond the limits of my knowledge here, I'm afraid (now there's a surprise!)  Does the XP marking then indicate a wagon that could travel in passenger or express goods trains, and so it should have tiebars?

 

In essence, XP marked = vacuum pipes, tiebars, screwlinks

Not XP marked = may or not be vacuum fitted; if fitted, would have tiebars and screwlinks; if not, no tiebars and three links

 

Apologies for being a bit of a dullard...

 

That's correct, basically.  XP applied to wagons with the above fittings and also a wheelbase of 10ft or longer (the GW/BR Cattle Wagons would qualify); wagons with wheelbase of less than 10ft may be vac braked, but would not be marked XP.

[Graham T]

Great, that clarifies it.  Thanks Steve.

[Harlequin]

XP marking was introduced in September 1938.

And the practice of lime-washing cattle wagons ended quite early. I’ll give you a date when I can find a reference.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Harlequin

[MrWolf]

XP , if I remember right denotes express passenger, E being used for Engineering,  (so we get the US navy type of abbreviation.)

The GWR cattle wagons built after 1900 were 11ft wheelbase.

[MrWolf]

4 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

XP marking was introduced in September 1938.

 

 

That coincides with the livery change to the small letter GW in the left-hand corner doesn't it?

[Neal Ball]

10 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

XP marking was introduced in September 1938.

And the practice of lime-washing cattle wagons ended quite early. I’ll give you a date when I can find a reference.

Looking on the GW cattle wagons thread, there were comments about 1927 being the end of lime washing.

 

 

[Sasquatch]

43 minutes ago, Graham T said:

 

I'm way beyond the limits of my knowledge here, I'm afraid (now there's a surprise!)  Does the XP marking then indicate a wagon that could travel in passenger or express goods trains, and so it should have tiebars?

 

In essence, XP marked = vacuum pipes, tiebars, screwlinks

Not XP marked = may or not be vacuum fitted; if fitted, would have tiebars and screwlinks; if not, no tiebars and three links

 

Apologies for being a bit of a dullard...

Vacuum braked wagons had a cylinder. All the cylinders would be connected via the vacuum pipes. Before the train could move off all the air was sucked out thus releasing the brakes. If a wagon or portion of a train came loose causing a break in the system, the air would fill the runaway portion of the train and apply the brakes bringing it to a stop. 

The XP branding allowed wagons to be assembled into such trains. ie; Passenger trains or dedicated XP goods trains.

If a freight train had a mix of vacuum braked (fitted) and non-vacuum braked (unfitted) wagons, the Vacuum braked ones would normally be marshalled together behind the engine, thus creating a vacuumed braked portion.

 

During BR days fitted wagons were painted bauxite or brown and unfitted were grey, following LNER practice. 

 

Now for the confusing bit.

Some unfitted wagons just had a pipe allowing them to be marshalled between vacuum braked wagons. (So you could model a cattle truck without the vacuum cylinder or the tie bars but with the pipes!)

 

Remember that some trucks etc. Had clasp brakes, an 8 shoes design which didn't need tie-bars. But I think that would only apply to LNER, Southern and some LMS cattle wagons.

 

Hope that was helpful. (I'm not known for explaining things in plain English🤨)   

Edited August 12, 2022 by Sasquatch

[Graham T]

Thanks very much indeed to @Harlequin, @Neal Ball, and @Sasquatch, those answers have all been (a) clear, and (b) very helpful!

 

I now see that the LMS wagons of mine also have cylinders, so I need to have a rummage about for some suitable tiebar material.  Probably need to buy some more screw links as well...

[Graham T]

Righto, a rummage has turned up a choice between .5mm wire, or .75mm square plastic rod.  Not sure which looks better?  I know the bar should run between the bottom of the W-irons, but there's almost no material there to fix them onto, and I'm thinking that from normal viewing distance it will be hard to tell the difference?  The wire would be stronger, of course...

 

So we have a choice of wire:

 

 

Or square plastic rod:

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Graham T

[Sasquatch]

8 minutes ago, Graham T said:

Thanks very much indeed to @Harlequin, @Neal Ball, and @Sasquatch, those answers have all been (a) clear, and (b) very helpful!

 

I now see that the LMS wagons of mine also have cylinders, so I need to have a rummage about for some suitable tiebar material.  Probably need to buy some more screw links as well...

Might be more prototypical to just remove the vacuum cylinders on the LMS types. I don't ever recall seeing a fitted morton braked LMS cattle wagon. They were mostly 8 shoe clasp braked with some built by BR in 1949-50!