Covid - coming out of Lockdown 3 - no politics, less opinion and more facts and information.

[admiles]

First (3/3) and second appointments (22/5)  booked together but I did have to go to Brighton to get it. I live in Suffolk!  Not a huge issue as i'm happy to drive but hardly local.

 

[rocor]

2 minutes ago, admiles said:

First (3/3) and second appointments (22/5)  booked together but I did have to go to Brighton to get it. I live in Suffolk!  Not a huge issue as i'm happy to drive but hardly local.

 

 

I found out this morning that the pharmacy of my local supermarket where I do my regular weekly shop, is doing jabs. Nowhere closer than a journey with a change of trains halfway was available online for my first jab, or for the second that I am booked in for.

 

Am I going to try to change the venue of jab number two?. No funny enough, I rather like travelling by train, and as I possess a "Freedom pass", it is not costing me anything.

[Neil]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

Neil

 

The new arrivals rules changed over the weekend, the major weakness being truck drivers being exempt from the regulations, now they must have a negative test before leaving the port into the country. As for a feeble track and trace, the fault lies with those who are unwilling to cooperate with it, we are not in a police state and responsibility lies with each individual. Likewise those who either fail to take a test when showing symptoms and or failing to isolate when infected. There is simply no excuse for not complying with the regulations, there are many charities out there helping the less fortunate. They are as bad  and as lethal as drunk/drug drivers

 

I'm sorry John but while we can and should applaud the good things like the vaccine, development, procurement and roll out, enthusiasm for one or another political party shouldn't blind us to the weak spots in our defences. It's been extensively reported that the problems with track and trace lie at the organisational level rather than individual compliance. There are a significant number on low pay, in insecure jobs who can't afford to isolate and eat, pay rent, utilities or mortgage. Charities can't pick up the slack here,  government need to plug these gaps to ensure that the hard work of vaccinating and the strictures of lockdown haven't been in vain. Beating Covid isn't something that can be done on the cheap or without a wholehearted effort.

[-missy-]

Its quite concerning reading how the virus can so easily spread.

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-56730037?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=607597270b5e0102e3fc553a%26Source of South African variant cluster in south London%262021-04-13T14%3A07%3A17.062Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:7a62d678-6381-4e34-92c8-bb5909ddd35b&pinned_post_asset_id=607597270b5e0102e3fc553a&pinned_post_type=share

 

M.

[woodenhead]

42 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

I'm sorry John but while we can and should applaud the good things like the vaccine, development, procurement and roll out, enthusiasm for one or another political party shouldn't blind us to the weak spots in our defences. It's been extensively reported that the problems with track and trace lie at the organisational level rather than individual compliance. There are a significant number on low pay, in insecure jobs who can't afford to isolate and eat, pay rent, utilities or mortgage. Charities can't pick up the slack here,  government need to plug these gaps to ensure that the hard work of vaccinating and the strictures of lockdown haven't been in vain. Beating Covid isn't something that can be done on the cheap or without a wholehearted effort.

I understand where you are coming from but I think the challenge for the Government is how you counter abuse of the support necessary for full compliance.

 

I am of the same belief that there needs to be support for people who self isolate but I would imagine there are plenty of savvy people who would see this as a massive opportunity to take cash from the Government - covid parties, false positives and all manner of things to create a self isolation claim.  I would not envy the civil servants who would have to set up and monitor this to weed out the fraudsters.

[tender]

2 hours ago, -missy- said:

Its quite concerning reading how the virus can so easily spread.

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-56730037?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=607597270b5e0102e3fc553a%26Source of South African variant cluster in south London%262021-04-13T14%3A07%3A17.062Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:7a62d678-6381-4e34-92c8-bb5909ddd35b&pinned_post_asset_id=607597270b5e0102e3fc553a&pinned_post_type=share

 

M.

 

More concerning in how it got there in the first place. Doesn't bode well for our future defences of this and other mutations coming in undetected.

Edited April 13, 2021 by tender

[Neil]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

I understand where you are coming from but I think the challenge for the Government is how you counter abuse of the support necessary for full compliance.

 

I am of the same belief that there needs to be support for people who self isolate but I would imagine there are plenty of savvy people who would see this as a massive opportunity to take cash from the Government - covid parties, false positives and all manner of things to create a self isolation claim.  I would not envy the civil servants who would have to set up and monitor this to weed out the fraudsters.

 

I too can see where you're coming from too but I can't see mass abuse of the support, and if there is some around the edges this may be a small price to pay for the benefits society would reap in a more effective squashing of the virus. In general, business and commerce has been supported (though I accept that there have been gaps here too) but this hasn't been matched when it comes to supporting individuals, particularly those with the least. There's just as much scope for fraud and gaming the system in business (as has recently been reported ) as at a personal level but there does seem to be a view held at large that those at the bottom of the financial pecking order have the most dubious moral characters. 

[boxbrownie]

7 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Is location data covered in the Data Protection legislation? Not an issue for many of us, but I can see legit reasons for people not wanting to be traced. I don't care if you find out I am in the Dog & Duck, but I haven't got a vengeful ex chasing me. Sympathies all round on this one. 

I cannot see many if any legit reasons for people not wanting to be traced, provided it is for the right reasons....ie your own personal safety and that of your friends and family, but I can see the paranoia some have thinking “what if it fell into the wrong hands” who ever they might be.

[woodenhead]

7 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Is location data covered in the Data Protection legislation? Not an issue for many of us, but I can see legit reasons for people not wanting to be traced. I don't care if you find out I am in the Dog & Duck, but I haven't got a vengeful ex chasing me. Sympathies all round on this one. 

This is more around general privacy of data for Google and Apple who sell their products based on security, you only let people know what you want them to know and it would concern many people (i.e. affect sales) if they thought their data was being handed over to Government agencies.  You may have read on the many cases of Apple being sued in order to unlock a phone and Apple refusing.  What may go on behind closed doors is another thing, but publicly they don't allow any official bodies to see any data from a phone.

[Oldddudders]

Looking through the other end of the telescope from Neil's examples, in Paris they have just closed down an establishment in a posh building in the 16th arrondissement where visitors could play poker, enjoy fine food and wines in the company of young ladies, and who knows whatever else that lockdown forbids. This was available 24/7 to those who knew. Demand was probably not limited among those who see themselves as more deserving. This is against a background of enquiries about allegations of Government ministers wining and dining in fine circumstances behind closed doors.

 

Money talks and people will find a way to earn it. 

[woodenhead]

Money does indeed talk, especially in Australia who has been welcoming many a Hollywood celebrity to it's shores whilst denying it's own citizens a fair chance to return home because of the cost of getting a seat on a plane plus the quarantine.  The rich can also specify where they will quarantine contrasting with the rest who don't get such a choice.  It was also a kick in the teeth when Australia welcomed all those tennis players on specially chartered flights, but no special charters to return it's citizens home.

 

Money always talks, I wonder how many rich folk set off for their bolt holes in New Zealand when the pandemic began.

[Phil Parker]

8 hours ago, Neil said:

Chile has been more reliant on just the vaccination programme and has had to cope with the Brazilian strains of the virus too.

 

I think you'll find they are using the Chinese vaccine with an efficacy considerably worse than either of the ones we are using, so not as useful a guide as the report would have us believe.

 

[hayfield]

7 hours ago, Ohmisterporter said:

My wife and I are going for second O-AZ jabs on Saturday. That will be an eleven week gap for me and ten week gap for wife, since our first jabs. 

Boris has been saying the improved infection and death rates are down to lockdown, not vaccination. I tend to think it is a combination of both. 

 

 

Geoff

 

The government is having to play down the effectiveness just to reign in the public from going mad and letting their guard down

 

Boris are the rest of the ministers know exactly what's happening, but some of the public are completely stupid so need to be continually told to keep their guard up

[Pete the Elaner]

39 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I think you'll find they are using the Chinese vaccine with an efficacy considerably worse than either of the ones we are using, so not as useful a guide as the report would have us believe.

 

 

Since Chile is close to the UK with the percentage of population vaccinated & different with the direction their infection & death rates are heading, I think it would be very useful to examine other differences. Which vaccine(s) they are using is one such difference.

It is certainly not good to blindly accept them as being the same because of their vaccination rate.

[hayfield]

4 hours ago, Neil said:

 

I'm sorry John but while we can and should applaud the good things like the vaccine, development, procurement and roll out, enthusiasm for one or another political party shouldn't blind us to the weak spots in our defences. It's been extensively reported that the problems with track and trace lie at the organisational level rather than individual compliance. There are a significant number on low pay, in insecure jobs who can't afford to isolate and eat, pay rent, utilities or mortgage. Charities can't pick up the slack here,  government need to plug these gaps to ensure that the hard work of vaccinating and the strictures of lockdown haven't been in vain. Beating Covid isn't something that can be done on the cheap or without a wholehearted effort.

 

 

Neil

 

You are blaming track and trace fo the individuals who decide to totally ignore the breaches of rules around covid  testing and isolation. Plenty of people on low income do follow these rules. The rule breakers come from all parts of society, failure to heed the rules is exactly the same as drink/drug driving. Nothing to do with T&T administration. These people who do it on purpose are potentially killers and certainly extending the time covid is infecting people, irrespective whether they are rich or poor.  

 

 

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

 

Neil

 

You are blaming track and trace fo the individuals who decide to totally ignore the breaches of rules around covid  testing and isolation. Plenty of people on low income do follow these rules. The rule breakers come from all parts of society, failure to heed the rules is exactly the same as drink/drug driving. Nothing to do with T&T administration. These people who do it on purpose are potentially killers and certainly extending the time covid is infecting people, irrespective whether they are rich or poor.  

 

 

That's a bit strong, you cannot lump all people into the same group and then compare them with drunk drivers.

 

There are many motivations for not isolating and recklessness is only one of them, that is the only form of avoidance you could lump with drink driving.

[hayfield]

Just now, woodenhead said:

That's a bit strong, you cannot lump all people into the same group and then compare them with drunk drivers.

 

There are many motivations for not isolating and recklessness is only one of them, that is the only form of avoidance you could lump with drink driving.

 

Please give me a valid reason for not isolating when you are confirmed having the virus, let alone suspected of having it

 

Forget covid there are plenty of health and safety requirements at work for those with a contagious infection. Its a basic public health requirement as well as a personal responsibility

[Phil Parker]

8 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Please give me a valid reason for not isolating when you are confirmed having the virus, let alone suspected of having it

 

Forget covid there are plenty of health and safety requirements at work for those with a contagious infection. Its a basic public health requirement as well as a personal responsibility

 

Because you and your family can't afford 2-3 weeks without pay. 

[Pete the Elaner]

7 hours ago, Ohmisterporter said:

 

Boris has been saying the improved infection and death rates are down to lockdown, not vaccination. I tend to think it is a combination of both. 

 

I agree. Surely the vaccinations are having an effect now around half the population (& most of the more vulnerable) have had their first dose?

I don't listen to closely to politicians because they seem to say a lot of things for popularity & to discredit their opposition.

 

Fortunately there are certain figures we can access easily.

The first wave was slightly later in the year than the second. The lockdown did help a lot to reduce the infection rate, but it seemed to get a huge boost when the weather got better.

The figures were also skewed a little because deaths from some institutions were not being recorded properly until the media exposed it.

The 2nd lockdown contained the 2nd wave but did not reduce it. When this was relaxed, things got badly out of hand.

The 3rd lockdown was already in place before this year started, so was 3 months earlier in the year than the 1st one. It therefore had to cope with the coldest months when viral infections are usually higher. Should it have been a surprise that the 2nd wave was worse & longer than the 1st?

It would be some time before the warmer weather would be here to help.

Looking at deaths in the UK, the 2nd wave was in quite a steep remission during February, so the weather was not helping this time around. If the lockdown adherence had been the same as in lockdown 1, then the remission should have been slightly slower.

Many places stayed open (take-aways, DIY stores) & people seemed to be moving around a lot more, so the remission should have been slower still.

But it wasn't. Death rate remission was far greater than lockdown 1.

So something else must have been having an effect. What else was happening around the same time?

 

Draw your own conclusions...

[hayfield]

12 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Because you and your family can't afford 2-3 weeks without pay. 

 

So that's a good reason for going out infecting people, some of whom may be hospitalised or even die

 

The UK has a benefits system, plus there are hundreds of charities giving away food etc to those in need

 

I am sorry Phil but many extremely poor people are both isolating or shielding as requested, but its not just the poor who are doing this, its also many who are not financially disadvantaged

Edited April 13, 2021 by hayfield

[hayfield]

4 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I agree. Surely the vaccinations are having an effect now around half the population (& most of the more vulnerable) have had their first dose?

I don't listen to closely to politicians because they seem to say a lot of things for popularity & to discredit their opposition.

 

Fortunately there are certain figures we can access easily.

The first wave was slightly later in the year than the second. The lockdown did help a lot to reduce the infection rate, but it seemed to get a huge boost when the weather got better.

The figures were also skewed a little because deaths from some institutions were not being recorded properly until the media exposed it.

The 2nd lockdown contained the 2nd wave but did not reduce it. When this was relaxed, things got badly out of hand.

The 3rd lockdown was already in place before this year started, so was 3 months earlier in the year than the 1st one. It therefore had to cope with the coldest months when viral infections are usually higher. Should it have been a surprise that the 2nd wave was worse & longer than the 1st?

It would be some time before the warmer weather would be here to help.

Looking at deaths in the UK, the 2nd wave was in quite a steep remission during February, so the weather was not helping this time around. If the lockdown adherence had been the same as in lockdown 1, then the remission should have been slightly slower.

Many places stayed open (take-aways, DIY stores) & people seemed to be moving around a lot more, so the remission should have been slower still.

But it wasn't. Death rate remission was far greater than lockdown 1.

So something else must have been having an effect. What else was happening around the same time?

 

Draw your own conclusions...

 

 

Pete

 

The second wave was going into remission in early winter, certainly in Essex the death rate was about the same as in the first, however in December Essex got hit for six (like other areas did later) with the kent virus. This variant was so much more contagious than the first. In essex we had more deaths in the first 10 weeks of this year, than we had in the previous 9 months.

 

We suffered a double whammy in the 2nd wave, where as Europe now has a third wave with the Kent variant, which also has increased their mortality rates substantially  

[AY Mod]

25 minutes ago, hayfield said:

The UK has a benefits system, plus there are hundreds of charities giving away food etc to those in need

 

 

You make it sound like that's a good thing. I hope you've never had to survive on either.

[Bernard Lamb]

Had the second jab today and no side effects.

On the news they are still showing people being vaccinated and the person giving the vaccination is filling the syringe from the bottle. In the pharmacy a number of syringes were ready on a tray and there were several trays ready. That seems to be very efficient to me as the preparation could be done in another room and one person could get through jabbing many more people. But then I worked in QA in a production environment and continuous improvement was always to the forefront.

Bernard

[bradfordbuffer]

23 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Please give me a valid reason for not isolating when you are confirmed having the virus, let alone suspected of having it

 

Forget covid there are plenty of health and safety requirements at work for those with a contagious infection. Its a basic public health requirement as well as a personal responsibility

Go back to pre November 2019....how many peaple use to come to work with a stinking slobbering heavy cold/man flu ...infecting 50% ...I cant sit at home I'll be bored! I'll soldier on! No one can do my job better than me! Self proclaimed work alcoholic....pre covid i tried as much as possible to give driving controls the once over with the antibacterial from the galley on board that was just for my own self cleanseing but glad I left in feb 2020...(hats off to all that kept the wheels turning in all transportation...! May and June was prity harrowing as a civilian sat on my arse at home receiving amazon and supermarket on line shops)...different world now....cough or sneeze in public see the reaction around...mask or not!..indoors or out.

 

As a straw poll how many foke would be prepared to administer full CPR? In regards to c19 infection rate.? Cant do it at 2 meters.(again hats off to emergency personnel who have had too)..Suppose just like the 90s when no one would do it coz of the fear of aids!...remember the little one way mouth guard that was in first aid kits! Got to find it first before recipient pegged out!

[monkeysarefun]

8 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

And now the US FDA has called for the Johnson & Johnson vaccine rollout to be paused. A number of women of child-bearing age have developed clots, one fatally. 

Australia has cancelled its order for J&J vaccines. Yesterday another blood clot on an AZ vaccine was reported here. We appear to be relying on Pfizer now, though we don't have enough in country right now and the increased order we placed last week to replace the AZ vaccine won't be here for yonks. We are still locally producing the AZ vaccine and that is freely available to anyone who wants it but all these mixed messages about it being suspended although its safer than a whole heap of other things like meteor strikes and bees is confusing many.

 

News reports are saying government modelling is predicting  that based on the current vaccine rollout rates around the globe we won't restablish international travel until 2024!