Covid - coming out of Lockdown 3 - no politics, less opinion and more facts and information.

[chris p bacon]

I'm not impressed with the literature they give you when you get vaccinated.   I had the AZ jab at 19.15 today (Friday) and by 21.00 I had an incredible urge for a bag of chips...nowhere did it warn me that could be a side effect..or how long it's going to last..

[NIK]

5 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

I'm not impressed with the literature they give you when you get vaccinated.   I had the AZ jab at 19.15 today (Friday) and by 21.00 I had an incredible urge for a bag of chips...nowhere did it warn me that could be a side effect..or how long it's going to last..

Hi,

 

An urge for a bag of chips is a side order effect.

 

I lost three pounds in weight in the four days I felt ropey after having my first AZ jab despite doing little exercise. 

 

Regards

 

Nick

[hayfield]

The outlook for the UK is very promising, we might be seeing a plateauing of infections, though this is probable to be expected, as its mainly in the younger population who are still active and not being vaccinated. Looking at hospital admissions still falling and a tenth of what they were at the height of the year, likewise we are still thankfully seeing deaths continue to decline at a similar rate. Whilst we are not quite at the rates of last summer we are quite close in southern England and no doubt the midlands and north will soon follow

 

The gloom is really coming from seeing Europe struggle with infections. When I got up there was an interesting report on the BBC news mainly about why Europe is having so many problems, seems national pride, politics and an over bureaucratic system are all compounding the issues. Leaders are now more worried about what they are seen to do, due to previous failings being over cautious, which now may in turn be hampering their response. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-56456022

 

Poor old Astra Zeneca is stuck in the middle doing its best, but seemingly being singled out where as the other two manufacturers as experiencing the same issues in deliveries and reactions to the vaccine. Kate Bingham's interview was short but interesting. It seems that the EU needs to do what is very uncomfortable and act far quicker and more decisively 

 

Yes our government should look after us first, but with half the adult population vaccinated, perhaps we might be able to help the EU out a bit ? 

Edited March 20, 2021 by hayfield

[boxbrownie]

9 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

I'm not impressed with the literature they give you when you get vaccinated.   I had the AZ jab at 19.15 today (Friday) and by 21.00 I had an incredible urge for a bag of chips...nowhere did it warn me that could be a side effect..or how long it's going to last..

TBH with your nickname I am not surprised 

[Neil]

This is an unpleasant development. Reading between the lines it seems that the old arguments about not compromising drug company profits have been wheeled out. OK an oversimplification on my part but somewhere I would like to see space for the public good in the equation particularly as we, the public, have pumped money in to fund vaccine development.

[hayfield]

51 minutes ago, Neil said:

This is an unpleasant development. Reading between the lines it seems that the old arguments about not compromising drug company profits have been wheeled out. OK an oversimplification on my part but somewhere I would like to see space for the public good in the equation particularly as we, the public, have pumped money in to fund vaccine development.

 

I have a distant relative who has lived a life of luxury by getting to near the top of a drug company, but the cost of developing drugs can be astronomic, so it is important to keep these things under strict control. However the Oxford AZ is being made under licence on every continent. 

 

However I am getting a bit fed up with the EU's attitude towards the Oxford Astra Zeneca vaccine. This vaccine was funded by UK PLC, we have insisted it is supplied at cost to benefit all. Plus un like the other two vaccines that we have authorised it is easy to both transport and deliver 

 

Now look at the high jinks both the EU and its member states have got up to. They have made false claims about its efficacy, on several occasions. It has harangued the company when both other companies were also failing to deliver the amount of vaccines they committed to. Wrongly suspended its use even though both other vaccines were suffering similar events. Apparently the Belgium's are calling it the Aldi vaccine because its cheaper, now they are threatening a vaccine war. The second stroke of genius was increasing the gap between the 1st and 2nd doses, it not only works but seemingly increases its effectiveness, with the virus rampaging through Eastern Europe first doses will make so much more difference.

 

According to Kate Bingham we made firm orders for Both the Oxford / Astra Zeneca and Pfizer vaccines much earlier than the EU, granted they eventually admitted this fact. But when you are in a hole, stop making it deeper. 

 

Perhaps Europeans might have valued it more if it was more expensive and politicians had treated all 3 vaccines the same way

 

  

[jonny777]

I just wonder if EU leaders thought that careful consideration of vaccines was the sensible path to follow. Maybe they decided that the headstrong UK with their mass order of millions of doses would be a good guinea pig trial for them to study, and follow or ditch, depending on what happened to the vaccinated UK population? 

 

They seem to have reasoned without the obvious highly contagious levels shown by the various mutations, which can spread like wildfire through a region (as witnessed in Kent towards the end of last year). 

 

It must be very difficult trying to co-ordinate so many countries and their vaccine demands/production, especially when there are no hard borders. 

[D9020 Nimbus]

Had the Oxford/AZ vaccine this morning, at a local vaccination centre. I opted not to book online because the centre being used by my practice was within walking distance of home (mind, it was a long walk—Google Maps said 33 minutes, but it took me the best part of an hour to get there). Since I don't have my own transport (I'm 6’6” tall and find driving most cars for other than a short distance very painful) I thought this would be safest—in pre-Covid times I'd probably have got a taxi.

 

I was sure my appointment was for 10.45 and arrived just on time but it turned out to have been 11.45 — but this wasn't a problem. I was lucky because there was only one person in front of me in the "outside" queue (you queued outside then registered then got directed to one of two queues inside). By the time I left about 15 minutes later (just queueing time, .I wasn't asked to wait 15 minutes) there were about a dozen in the queue outside. As far as I could tell there were five vaccination rooms being used.

 

No side effects from the vaccine so far (but early days yet) — just from the long walk…

[hayfield]

I think the whole ethos with the EU is they act as a collective, consider at length then try and agree a course of action,

 

Next up if it were anyone other than the UK perhaps they might copy it, but the acrimonious split between the UK and EU must have coloured their decision process. To their credit they offered us membership of the vaccine club, which I think they knew we would never accept

 

However as we never had to consider 27 other countries and try and get an agreement, the UK was able to act quickly and impulsively. Threw the kitchen sink at it but used the right people to organise each stage. Masterstroke using Kate Bingham to get the process up and running. The armed forces are used to emergency logistics, then the uniformity of our NHS to roll it out.

 

All we have to do is to roll up at the local centre, look how the French system has been explained in earlier replies, then each German state has its own rules. To be quite honest once the hard job of finding a vaccine and make it was done the rest comparatively is plain sailing (not to belittle the forces or NHS) Many countries do not have these assets

[D9020 Nimbus]

The one news item that surprised me most yesterday was a report on BBC News that Germany is planning to get family doctors involved in the vaccination programme. Only now? Just shows the advantage of the NHS in situations like this. Though, given what often appears as a rather chaotic health system to us, the US are doing pretty well too.

[boxbrownie]

11 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Though, given what often appears as a rather chaotic health system to us, the US are doing pretty well too.

From our friend in California she told us the National Guard and Regular Army is organising the vaccination centres and operation in the States, obviously health workers are also there but I would imagine the National Guard in America is a massive organisation so that must help with their fragmented health system.

[Hobby]

Any country in the EU could have gone it alone I believe, but in view of Brexit I suspect pressure was put on them not to. 

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

Any country in the EU could have gone it alone I believe, but in view of Brexit I suspect pressure was put on them not to. 

 

Hobby

 

The smaller states are quite happy, they are getting supplies much quicker and cheaper than could order on their own, if all 27 member states were clambering for the vaccines independently the large wealthy nations would be the winners and prices much higher

 

But what makes the EU so good, handicaps them terribly. What is the saying a camel was designed by a committee. Just getting governments to agree takes time. Then within the EU each state has a different health care system. In politics taking your time and wearing the opposition works when you are as big/bigger. Not so when people are dying

 

A raging pandemic is different, in the early days our government was constantly under pressure to act quicker and bigger, testing, PPE, ventilators, hospitals, lockdowns etc. Most of these were achieved despite what many say. They  needed to act swiftly and boldly which they certainly did with the vaccines. Had we gone in with the EU scheme where would we be now ?

 

We still have two other types of vaccine coming on stream, one in the summer and a third in the winter. Next year much larger facilities will be in Oxford. And millions have been invested in other hi-tech health areas. Clearly the UK have given the multinational pharmaceuticals the means of developing their businesses here. And hopefully be first in the line for continued protection from viruses. This is an interesting and reassuring read

 

https://post.parliament.uk/manufacturing-covid-19-vaccines/   

[2750Papyrus]

On 20/03/2021 at 00:49, chris p bacon said:

I'm not impressed with the literature they give you when you get vaccinated.   I had the AZ jab at 19.15 today (Friday) and by 21.00 I had an incredible urge for a bag of chips...nowhere did it warn me that could be a side effect..or how long it's going to last..

Are you sure you're not pregnant?  In that case, 9 months.......

[hayfield]

European holidays are looking a lot more distant that a few weeks ago.

 

Seemingly in the UK foreign travel will be possible from the middle of May

 

The EU will have a corvid passport obtainable before June

 

But will any of us want to go

 

This time last year I was just about to retire and it had been our intention to go to Italy by train again to celebrate in the early summer. Events took over and it had to be postponed, last year initially hoped this year will be fine, as new year got closer Italy was looking not so good, but perhaps a dash through the tunnel to France in the Autumn might be an option

 

Reading a European news agency this morning , though the AZ output still looks to under perform Pfizer and Moderna vaccines production looks far more promising and the EU estimates to have most adults vaccinated by August. Perhaps an Autumn break may be on the cards ?

[Oldddudders]

Rollout here remains patchy, it seems, but a wary populace, as already discussed, has the scope to limit the effect of vaccination anyway. I read that in the US, people are wary of Johnson & Johnson's product, despite it being 'home-brewed' and conveniently single-shot, because of suspicions about the laboratory methods used originally in developing the type of vaccine. This despite church leaders urging takeup.

 

As you know, France was one of several countries to suspend use of AZ while the silly blood-clot claims were debunked. You may also recall France was wary of giving it to over 65s, pending more data on efficacy. Guess what - France now says it should only be given to people over 55! PM Jean Castex, 55 and a half, had a very public AZ jab on Friday.

 

Headless-chicken politics is alive and well and thriving in the Covid era! 

[The Stationmaster]

On 20/03/2021 at 10:02, hayfield said:

The outlook for the UK is very promising, we might be seeing a plateauing of infections, though this is probable to be expected, as its mainly in the younger population who are still active and not being vaccinated. Looking at hospital admissions still falling and a tenth of what they were at the height of the year, likewise we are still thankfully seeing deaths continue to decline at a similar rate. Whilst we are not quite at the rates of last summer we are quite close in southern England and no doubt the midlands and north will soon follow

 

The gloom is really coming from seeing Europe struggle with infections. When I got up there was an interesting report on the BBC news mainly about why Europe is having so many problems, seems national pride, politics and an over bureaucratic system are all compounding the issues. Leaders are now more worried about what they are seen to do, due to previous failings being over cautious, which now may in turn be hampering their response. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-56456022

 

Poor old Astra Zeneca is stuck in the middle doing its best, but seemingly being singled out where as the other two manufacturers as experiencing the same issues in deliveries and reactions to the vaccine. Kate Bingham's interview was short but interesting. It seems that the EU needs to do what is very uncomfortable and act far quicker and more decisively 

 

Yes our government should look after us first, but with half the adult population vaccinated, perhaps we might be able to help the EU out a bit ? 

One minor point there is that nowhere near half of the adult population in Britain has been fully vaccinated.  According to NHS figures for England by 14 March 20, 661, 496 (=45.4% of the population) had received their first dose of vaccine.  By the same date only 1, 110,156 people (2.4%) had received a second dose.  As the vaccines are both based on the need for two doses to deliver their full efficacy only a tiny percentage of the population of England had been fully vaccinated by 14 March.    

 

By 20 March the figures had risen to 22, 873, 079 and 1, 520, 680 respectively.  Or looking at it another way the rate of completing the course of vaccination in England is lagging massively behind the administration of the first dose of vaccine and is currently in fact not even matching the pace of delivery of first doses back in January although the rate has risen in the past couple of weeks.  The rate of delivery of second doses has to increase by a factor of 5 by April if the 12 week interval is to be properly achieved.  That either needs a lot more  vaccine (at least twice as much) or the rate of giving first doses will have to drop to almost zero. 

 

Let's not be misled by words and sloppy language used by some parts of officialdom, politicians, and the media - you are not fully vaccinated until you have received both doses of one of the vaccines.  Up until that point all you have received is your first dose of vaccine.

[Hobby]

Not sure I agree with that analysis, it comes across very negatively whereas that isn't the case. 

 

From what I've read they have enough doses stored to give everyone who has had one to have their second, they kept stocks back to match the numbers for the first jab so they will always have enough. Any surplus will then be used on the under 50s.

 

We will see a slow down in numbers getting their first jab simply because of those of us needing our second jab coming back, there's only a finite number they can do with the resources they have. That was inevitable and one reason the twelve week gap was put in was so they could ensure that the most vulnerable got at least one jab as soon as possible. 

 

As its turned out its worked well and it's also worth bearing in mind that the first jab on its own seems to be pretty effective. 

[AY Mod]

39 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

you are not fully vaccinated until you have received both doses of one of the vaccines.  Up until that point all you have received is your first dose of vaccine.

 

It would certainly be more helpful if they used phrases such as 'over 50% of persons over the age of 21 have partial protection and x% have increased protection' to reinforce that the younger population has no immunity and that no-one has full immunity (some people think they're invincible anyway but you can't vaccinate for stupidity*).

 

* I think it should be a crime but Mrs Y says I'm being a bit harsh.

[Hobby]

Quote from the NHS website about the first dose...

 

"The 1st dose of the COVID-19 vaccine should give you good protection from coronavirus. But you need to have the 2 doses of the vaccine to give you longer lasting protection."

 

Also the figure for second dose is now over 2 million ( https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations ) and as i said that will now start to shoot up as more of the vaccines given each day are second doses rather than first ones. I'd agree that the figures on there own don't look as well as they should, but that was simply down to the way the UK chose to give the vaccine (the 12 week gap) and it is wrong to just look at those figures and make comments on them on their own without taking into account the reasons why they are like that. Once you see why the figures are so lopsided they begin to make sense.

 

I'd suggest looking again in 4 weeks time and see how they look then.

[-missy-]

14 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

 to reinforce that the younger population has no immunity....

 

I certainly do not feel any safer out and about, if anything I feel I need to be more careful currently.

 

No vaccine for me until May sometime at the soonest. Not all 'younger' adults feel invincible...

 

Missy.

[chris p bacon]

2 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Are you sure you're not pregnant? 

 

Blimey I never read that as a side effect! 

 

Jab on Friday, slept like a log on Friday night and was a little drowsy/groggy yesterday, last night was sweats for a short while but now as normal (whatever that is)  Everyone I know who has had the jab has reported different side effects although none were bad.

[lapford34102]

44 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

One minor point there is that nowhere near half of the adult population in Britain has been fully vaccinated.  

Hobby's beaten me to it and said more or less what I would have said. If one dose keeps you out of hospital/ICU and reduces how infectious you might be then it will have done it's work until all are fully vaccinated.

 

The numbers don't quite tell the story either as there was a group at the beginning who had two doses at a 3 week interval. The main tranche did really get going till mid Jan and will be running 12 weeks behind for their second shot some things should start ramping over the next week.

 

Stu

 

 

[AY Mod]

12 minutes ago, -missy- said:

Not all 'younger' adults feel invincible.

 

It's not just younger people, I get the impression some older sorts* think they're Teflon-coated as soon as they walk out of the vacc centre. 

 

* including some in our family. 

[Hroth]

On 20/03/2021 at 00:49, chris p bacon said:

I'm not impressed with the literature they give you when you get vaccinated.   I had the AZ jab at 19.15 today (Friday) and by 21.00 I had an incredible urge for a bag of chips...nowhere did it warn me that could be a side effect..or how long it's going to last..

 

3 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Are you sure you're not pregnant?  In that case, 9 months.......

 

Chips are ok, you only need to start getting worried if you develop an insatiable appetite for mayo and pickled gherkins too...

 

As for the rest of it, as George Orwell might have said, "One Jab Good, Two Jabs Better!"

 

Having had my first 'un a few weeks ago now, I'm not feeling invulnerable.  I'l keep up on the PPE...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_diving_dress