Covid - coming out of Lockdown 3 - no politics, less opinion and more facts and information.

[woodenhead]

15 minutes ago, john new said:

 

But if they hadn't travelled they wouldn't have got it.

 

What is still disturbing me at the moment is that the header on so many of the media articles reads - "Can I do ABC or go to XYZ?" when the more advisable headline surely ought to be Should I ..... rather than Can I .....

 

It is the media, and like leopards they won't change their spots, but I don't find it at all helpful towards ensuring the people around me will stay prudently aware of risks.

I imagine that the press coverage is based on the imminent collapse of the holiday firms and airlines which cannot survive without covid furlough (about to go) or customers.  Likewise, the holiday resorts are themselves going to adjust to a new world and people are not travelling facilities will close leading to even less capacity.  Firms also sell ancilliary products for holidays, lotion, clothing etc, if people are not going on holiday they buy a lot less of the stuff.

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, john new said:

But if they hadn't travelled they wouldn't have got it.

 

That is why I made the other post, we'll never know! They could have been the carriers (already had it before travelling), they could have caught it from fellow Scots who they could have met in Scotland. 

 

I haven't seen any English links to the outbreak either, so that would indicate it was they that brought it with them... 

 

All completely hypothetical if course, the point is was making was that the evidence simply isn't enough to prove anything, though some are trying to say it is. Where's the "linked" outbreak in England from these Scottish fans, for instance? If there isn't one then it would seem that they brought it down with them and spread it around between them whilst mixing in gatherings. 

 

There's lies, damned lies, and statistics!

 

[Nearholmer]

The statistics are fine: they tell you what they tell you, no more, no less.

 

The problem comes with people reading into the statistics things that aren’t there, numeral astrology effectively.

[Hobby]

Or interpreting them to suit their own purposes, which I feel has happened with these statistics, even though they aren't enough, on their own, to back up their conclusions. 

[DCB]

There seems to be a link between people attending large gatherings and contracting covid and a much stronger link between the cohort who travel long distances to the gatherings contracting covid.  Could it be few people use the Covid friendly alternatives of kyaking, cycling, motor cycling  and walking from Scotland to Wembly  compared to those who travel from Middlesex?   Could it be heaven forbid being confined to a metal tube with 50/200/500 other individuals, some of whom have Covid  compared to travelling in a group of 2 or 4 in a car with the expectation of a likliehood of one of those 4 having Covid varying in range 1 in 50 to 1 in 500 that of those on a train.

Its quite simple. Track and Trace everyone travelling on a train for more than 30 minutes. Or in my case avoid trains and buses like I avoid entering the crocodile enclosure at Wipsnade Zoo at Feeding time.  T

[Hobby]

6 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

Its quite simple. Track and Trace everyone travelling on a train for more than 30 minutes. 

 

That suggestion is in no way "simple"!

[Ian Hargrave]

Can I introduce a note of optimism into what is a horribly confusing situation ? Braving a cross country journey across central England mainly on A and B roads I attended a choral concert by The Sixteen in Peterborough Cathedral. Seating for the audience was finely tuned but what amazed was the spacing of the choir across the central nave which changed for each item and the detachment of four ( ? ) to beyond the choir stalls out of visual contact with their conductor to soar vocally heavenward for a performance of Allegri’s lMiserere . Gorgeous voices pitch perfect musicianship and an experience to send shivers of pleasure down your spine. It’s what our cathedrals are for.And what we do better than anyone…..Euros notwithstanding. It proved to me,as the first live music performance experience for over 18 months  that the human spirit is alive and kicking.What a tonic after a bruising year.

 

[John M Upton]

Ignoring the football (I couldn't care less about that!) the Sunday morning front pages are all Boris is going to ditch masks on 19th July but with doctors warning to keep them shoved in a bottom corner out of the way.

 

If I had my way, the national newspaper editors would be first against the wall when the revolution comes, swiftly followed by the media moguls who own them.

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, John M Upton said:

Ignoring the football (I couldn't care less about that!) the Sunday morning front pages are all Boris is going to ditch masks on 19th July but with doctors warning to keep them shoved in a bottom corner out of the way.

 

If I had my way, the national newspaper editors would be first against the wall when the revolution comes, swiftly followed by the media moguls who own them.

I'd do it the other way round!

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

 

John

Edited July 4, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Hal Nail]

It's interesting in skimming through this thread that the general consensus is at the risk averse end of the spectrum.

 

People doing much other than stay at home are held up as irresponsible, the government is invariably being too hasty and not listening to experts etc etc and for now, we should still limit contact as far as possible.

 

Now this may all be very sensible but the one glaring problem is that i can see us all still holed up in the jungle long after peace has actually broken out.

 

Given anyone on here suggesting we are heading out of the woods (to continue my foliage based metaphores) gets shot down, I'm not sure if we are ever going to decide its time to branch out towards normality?

[Oldddudders]

16 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

It's interesting in skimming through this thread that the general consensus is at the risk averse end of the spectrum.

I think it is simply that those who have a serious concern about how things are going bother to post here, while many thousands of other RMwebbers get on with life, dealing with current constraints as they see fit. 

 

My own interest is focussed quite heavily on when I might manage to see my wife again, other than on Zoom, as she lives in the UK. With France and UK permanently at odds about each others' Covid status, it may still be a while. We were last together on October 5th.....

[hayfield]

11 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

There seems to be a link between people attending large gatherings and contracting covid and a much stronger link between the cohort who travel long distances to the gatherings contracting covid.  Could it be few people use the Covid friendly alternatives of kyaking, cycling, motor cycling  and walking from Scotland to Wembly  compared to those who travel from Middlesex?   Could it be heaven forbid being confined to a metal tube with 50/200/500 other individuals, some of whom have Covid  compared to travelling in a group of 2 or 4 in a car with the expectation of a likliehood of one of those 4 having Covid varying in range 1 in 50 to 1 in 500 that of those on a train.

Its quite simple. Track and Trace everyone travelling on a train for more than 30 minutes. Or in my case avoid trains and buses like I avoid entering the crocodile enclosure at Wipsnade Zoo at Feeding time.  T

 

From what I have read most if not all test events went off without any issues with little if any infections.

 

The exception was the Scots coming down to London for the football match, but the majority of the vast hoards who came to London never had a ticket or went to the match

Many came from areas of high infection

A large number of younger (male) people who were more liable to be infected

Total lack of social distancing whilst in bars and marauding about the city in groups

Many would have come by train, others by coach or car. All 3 methods were enclosed for long periods

 

Given these circumstances transmission of the virus was inevitable, and those without tickets were asked not to travel.  

[Nearholmer]

Hal,

 

Partly a function of the demographic, I think. If you look at the survey results, about three quarters of respondents are 50+yo, and getting on for half are 60+yo.

 

Now, if that is representative of the exhibition-going demographic, and my gut feel is that it’s probably not far off, then one would presumably want to run exhibitions on a way that suits that group, not in a way that frightens a lot of us/them off.

 

I’m off for a week cycling in minute, so not at all “holed-up”, but equally not yet comfortable with crowded indoor spaces, or crowded outdoor ones for that matter.

 

Kevin

 

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Nearholmer

[hayfield]

28 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

It's interesting in skimming through this thread that the general consensus is at the risk averse end of the spectrum.

 

People doing much other than stay at home are held up as irresponsible, the government is invariably being too hasty and not listening to experts etc etc and for now, we should still limit contact as far as possible.

 

Now this may all be very sensible but the one glaring problem is that i can see us all still holed up in the jungle long after peace has actually broken out.

 

Given anyone on here suggesting we are heading out of the woods (to continue my foliage based metaphores) gets shot down, I'm not sure if we are ever going to decide its time to branch out towards normality?

 

3 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I think it is simply that those who have a serious concern about how things are going bother to post here, while many thousands of other RMwebbers get on with life, dealing with current constraints as they see fit. 

 

My own interest is focussed quite heavily on when I might manage to see my wife again, other than on Zoom, as she lives in the UK. With France and UK permanently at odds about each others' Covid status, it may still be a while. We were last together on October 5th.....

 

We are now heading for the next phase of living with this virus, like it or loath it its has to come. Its time for personal responsibility to take over

 

85 % of adults have had at least 1 dose of vaccine 63% two doses, the vaccine is working to prevent serious illness, as with over 20,000 new infections daily we are told hospital admissions are still low and less severe than even 6 mths ago.

 

In the past month I have eaten out several times, wearing a mask to entre and exit for seconds seems a waste of time especially as we spent an hour + each time with a mask, as was wearing a mask to go along an empty corridor to our bedroom. Having said this where we live and where we stayed were areas of low infection, and recent increases are mainly in the unvaccinated population. As the vaccination program continues to roll out those at risk will decline. There will never be the right time for all to ease lockdown, but it has to be done. Has the last 4 week extension curbed the latest spike ? by the look of it not by much.

 

For me a will keep the masks handy after the next easing of lockdown and use them if needed

[Neil]

41 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

.... Given anyone on here suggesting we are heading out of the woods (to continue my foliage based metaphores) gets shot down, I'm not sure if we are ever going to decide its time to branch out towards normality?

 

An interesting question.

 

If you're naturally a bit on the cautious side (like me) there's a natural tendency to see how things pan out rather than jump at the first chance to wholeheartedly embrace the latest easing of restrictions. On top of this there are aspects of life over the past year which will have become ingrained like the increased personal space we give each other. Then there are the differences of opinion between the government 'they think it's all over ....' and scientists 'I'm afraid it's too early to tell....' which reinforces the adoption of a cautious approach.

[Bernard Lamb]

55 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

It's interesting in skimming through this thread that the general consensus is at the risk averse end of the spectrum.

 

People doing much other than stay at home are held up as irresponsible, the government is invariably being too hasty and not listening to experts etc etc and for now, we should still limit contact as far as possible.

 

Now this may all be very sensible but the one glaring problem is that i can see us all still holed up in the jungle long after peace has actually broken out.

 

Given anyone on here suggesting we are heading out of the woods (to continue my foliage based metaphores) gets shot down, I'm not sure if we are ever going to decide its time to branch out towards normality?

Risk averse?

Us lot?

Try to book an event at a Baptist church hall or a funeral in Edinburgh.

There might well be other places/events with even tighter restrictions but they are way OTT compared with many.

I do not know where you get the idea from about being "holed up" but some of us do find the smaller numbers of people about and the ability to get served in shops and  pubs something of a welcome change.

Rather than go back to the old ways, or what you call "normality" should we not be looking as to how our quality of life can be improved? 

Bernard

[alastairq]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Rather than go back to the old ways, or what you call "normality" should we not be looking as to how our quality of life can be improved? 

Bernard

 But, didn't we actually think our quality of life was damned near perfect , before covid? [TIC!!}

 

I agree with the 'quality of life'' thing.

 

{Over-riding our seeking of economic excess.]

 

But, what might need changing is the overall concept of what 'quality of life'' actually means?  [Certainly not what the mass media, or PR spectrum of society would have us believe?]

 

Personally, I shall miss all those things Bernard mentioned.....[except I don't even 'like' going in a pub any more? They smell rather nastily! Which may prove I don't think I've ever been 'infected?]

 The relative quiet, the lack of numbers...

I went into 'town' the other day....I didn't know there were so many people on the planet!!!

 

Driving into town the other [late] evening [dad's taxi run]  and there are a completely different type of 'feral' human {?} being driving and loitering around.

Safe in the knowledge our local constabulary are all in the bigger towns, or at home, tucked up in front of the telly?

 

For me, a decent quality of life actually has its costs.

 

Fine for the likes of me, I can accept them wholeheartedly but, for the greater unwashed, is a 'better' quality of life really worth the price?

 

Can they even afford a 'better' quality of life?

 

{Obviously some can, given the way property prices in out-of-the-way places like Wales, or Herefordshire, have rocketed recently, as the better-heeled seek to escape to the more peaceful, tranquil world of 'better living?'   No good if trying to escape the iniquities that go with high rise living, though? Unless one accepts a 'different' kind of poverty?}

 

Perhaps 'quality of life' might mean, a more 'resilient' life style?

 

[Oldddudders]

Sherry's daughter is Deputy Head of a large primary school in the Potteries. She has spent half the weekend trying to sort out with parents the fallout from a positive test by a pupil. Many of the parents are anything but risk-averse, it seems. Generational differences are stark at times.

 

I certainly see life being a little different for some time to come. Here in France the traditional 'bisou' kiss-on-the-cheek greeting has gone quite out of fashion among many people. But equally a friend has just come back from 10 days in Corsica, so life is near-normal already for some. 

 

Add-in the certainty that some % of commuters will be able to work from home - at least on some days - forever, taking a little of the sting out of the rush-hour; that international business travel may reduce, due to experience of remote conferencing, and there is thus a chance of a slight reduction in pollution; that many of us have learnt to improve our hygiene standards, which will reduce the spread of many common viruses and illnesses; that household shopping is now not only enabled by parking in the supermarket car park; that clothes and shoes may be bought online, and that holidaying in the UK isn't all bad, and perhaps life's emphases for many will shift a little.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

 

I certainly see life being a little different for some time to come. Here in France the traditional 'bisou' kiss-on-the-cheek greeting has gone quite out of fashion among many people. But equally a friend has just come back from 10 days in Corsica, so life is near-normal already for some. 

We went out for our first “pub lunch” last Sunday for the first time since March 2020…..sitting on the table next to us were a young french couple steadily munching their way through a tradition British roast dinner (after first consuming a starter of local mussels of course)….we chatted a bit and they but were happy to go through the rigours of the testing and isolation if it meant a two week holiday in Cornwall…….well at least the Sun was shining  

 

It was genuinely nice to hear foreign voices again…..how odd is that?

[Oldddudders]

2 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

 It was genuinely nice to hear foreign voices again…..how odd is that?

You are no xenophobe! We know a mature couple, both well-educated and high-achievers, who moved from Chiswick to Torquay because they couldn't stand all the foreign tongues they would hear among other shoppers in the supermarket. 

[boxbrownie]

2 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

You are no xenophobe! We know a mature couple, both well-educated and high-achievers, who moved from Chiswick to Torquay because they couldn't stand all the foreign tongues they would hear among other shoppers in the supermarket. 

Well that’s just ignorant, nothing more or less.

[boxbrownie]

Isn’t that just the problem nowadays though, you can still love your country and be “backing Britain” but still love mixing with people from around the world……the world may seem big but is it really?

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I do not know where you get the idea from about being "holed up" but some of us do find the smaller numbers of people about and the ability to get served in shops and  pubs something of a welcome change.

Rather than go back to the old ways, or what you call "normality" should we not be looking as to how our quality of life can be improved? 

 

 

Ive probably come across a bit strong as often happens in writing. I think I'm striking a balance between getting out again without mingling in close contact but I'm certainly coming at this from the cautions/responsible end of the scale myself, despite being double vaccinated and fit and in good health (touch wood).

 

What I was driving at is whereas I will freely admit I reacted to the number of football fans catching covid with a sarcastic "surprise surprise", perhaps if they don't actually get ill, that's the new normal we need to get used to? Unless we permanently avoid anything involving contact with strangers... 

 

As for the chance to improve quality of life, I totally agree. I have said since before the pandemic that we could move to a standard 4 day week, on the same pay, achieved through the better productivity from flexible working (ie nearly a day saved just by not commuting). I would argue for many (but I appreciate not all) the enforced working from home has demonstrated this could be done - for example pre Covid there is no way I could have persuaded my large corporate that we could do year end accounts with no one coming in!

 

My suspicion, (admittedly negative) is that human nature being what it is, in 2 or 3 years time people will be back in the office pretty much as before and London prices will rise as all the people who have decamped to the sticks get bored/feel overlooked and start moving back! 

[alastairq]

37 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

well at least the Sun was shining  

 That's a worrying observation...the Sun being a shining light????

[APOLLO]

I think we must all use common sense and look after ourselves (family & friends also) as we invariably "open up"

 

I will continue to carry / wear masks and hand gel as mandated / I feel necessary (busy locations - though I will try to avoid those).

 

I hope pubs continue with the table service - a crowded bar area trying to get served does not "kick it" for me anymore - I will avoid.

 

And finally slight change of subject, this was posted on a Thai forum. A whole load lot of trouble over there re jabs, cost, availability etc. This article refers to vaccine cost in the Philippines ( a relatively poor country).

 

https://newsinfo.inquirer.net/1384867/sinovac-jabs-varying-prices-raise-alarm

 

AS always, follow the money. Covid has a new strain worldwide - Greed. Both political and corporate.

 

Thank god we have the NHS, and AZ.

 

Brit15