Covid - coming out of Lockdown 3 - no politics, less opinion and more facts and information.

[hayfield]

18 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

So, if something works for one person, it automatically works for everyone?

 

 

No, you raged against everyone who hasn't self-isolated (see below)

 

 

I have read what you said, you haven't demonstrated "its probably not poverty that is leading the majority to break the rules" - this is just your opinion. Others have mentioned the joy of the "gig economy" where no work=no money and I've talked to a few freelancers who have fallen between the cracks of official support. So far, this hasn't meant breaking quarantine rules, but that's more luck than anything else.

 

I simply suggested that things might be more complex and there will be people with all sort of different reasons, some of them completely understandable. I live in hope that understanding those reasons might mean provision can be made to deal with them. Anyone breaking rules just for selfish reasons deserves a good kicking of course, but with so many different people affected, I doubt that is 100% of them as you seem to think.

 

OK  please tell me what rules its OK for the less advantaged to ignore? Please what is a reasonable reason for me to be able to go and infect someone else, unlike you I would not go and "kick in" as you suggest someone who is not disadvantaged, I am happy for the legal system to take its course When did I ever mention 100% did it for selfish reasons ? 

 

In the past is was claimed there was one rule for the rich and another for everyone else, seems you wish to turn the tables,

 

 

 

[admiles]

2 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

A situation which is often quoted but never backed up.

 

An employer forces a Covid Positive employee to attend work thereby infecting the rest of the employees....not the smartest move and one I have never seen any evidence for.

 

 

Whether you choose to believe it is entirely up to you. Incidentally it would have been very unlikely he'd infect the rest of the employees as he works on a farm, with no other employees anywhere near him but that's a moot point.  The facts are as they are. 

[admiles]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

 

If I were him I would look for a new job, then name and shame the company

 

Jobs aren't easy to find these days. The "company" was a farm/farmer.  As I said earlier easy to criticize when it isn't your neck directly on the line.

[hayfield]

14 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

If it was my statement that your referring to I must emphasise it was for the “lockdown period” rather than a temporary cover we received the food package.

 

But I do feel where this government fell down in particular was in the support for the temporary isolation from work that employees were asked to comply with (although I also feel maybe the employers didn’t help much either), in some countries there was immediate “lay off pay” for those few weeks which of course helped people feel they could comply without suffering financially too much.

 

By and large though I think the U.K. did well in a unique situation but then again everyone could do better. 

 

I am just glad I never had to make any of the calls, whatever they did would not be right for someone, certainly generations to come will have to foot the bill.

 

One thing I got fed up with was the company directors bleating about the government not taking their dividend payments into consideration for financial support

[hayfield]

9 minutes ago, admiles said:

 

Jobs aren't easy to find these days. The "company" was a farm/farmer.  As I said earlier easy to criticize when it isn't your neck directly on the line.

 

I know this having to change jobs 12 years ago, then when we moved 5 years ago my wife found it near impossible to get one

[Hobby]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

basically sent home with tail between legs

 

Is the tail a side effect of covid?!

[Andy Hayter]

3 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

A situation which is often quoted but never backed up.

 

An employer forces a Covid Positive employee to attend work thereby infecting the rest of the employees....not the smartest move and one I have never seen any evidence for.

 

 

I thought that that and/or things very similar were what was happening in the Leicester sweatshops that also broke the lockdown rules - so contributing to the high levels of infection in that city.

 

AS for infecting the rest of the employees, such employers don't care.  The secondary victims get the same message.  Come into work or you're sacked.

[Oldddudders]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

If I were him I would look for a new job, then name and shame the company

Yup - the job market is awash with vacancies right now, I'm sure. 

[Oldddudders]

4 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

I thought that that and/or things very similar were what was happening in the Leicester sweatshops that also broke the lockdown rules - so contributing to the high levels of infection in that city.

 

AS for infecting the rest of the employees, such employers don't care.  The secondary victims get the same message.  Come into work or you're sacked.

Particularly true for employment where there is a continuous queue of applicants, as in the sweatshop instance - plenty more desperate for work who will step in if there is a vacancy. 

[bradfordbuffer]

8 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Particularly true for employment where there is a continuous queue of applicants, as in the sweatshop instance - plenty more desperate for work who will step in if there is a vacancy. 

Expendable/replaceable same meaning in workplaces...think trouble will be ahead due to industrial unrest as pay increases and terms and conditions erosion will be prevent as ....'your lucky to have a job'...

[62613]

7 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

We are talking about isolating for between 7 and 14 days. And its been confirmed certainly there is immediate food assistance.

 

Having worked in the mortgage system for quite a few years, before anyone looses their home there is a lot that goes on to prevent this happening, a quick call to the lender will will always bring a sensitive response. Certainly missing 1 months payment will not result in anyone loosing their home. Certainly lenders have been instructed to be ultra helpful.

 

During lockdown both buyers and renters were/are protected from eviction. 

The protection isn't worth the paper it's written on. You've obviously also never had to do battle with the Universal Credit system.

[brianusa]

After reading mostly a lot of horror stories reflecting covid and its effects in the UK, I would mention that for every horror story there is a lot of normalcy not mentioned.  There are those like my wife and I who have not been unduly affected except for a year of doing nothing.  We live in a bought and paid for house, have groceries delivered some times, our credit is good and theres money in the bank.  This is due to our fortunate career choices where we both have a double pension, one US and another UK, and on top of this the US government hands over substantial amounts of cash every so often!  So not all of us are living in the dire world projected in former responses.  GH is located in a desirable area where there are a lot of retirees who are undoubtedly in the same position as we are.  So there is another side to the covid coin!

    Brian.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, 62613 said:

The protection isn't worth the paper it's written on. You've obviously also never had to do battle with the Universal Credit system.

 

Sadly when I was self employed the waiting period was far too long, but like all self employed people its one of the downsides. My wife however after we moved was unemployed and the benefit was both automatic and paid regularly

[62613]

3 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Sadly when I was self employed the waiting period was far too long, but like all self employed people its one of the downsides. My wife however after we moved was unemployed and the benefit was both automatic and paid regularly

She didn't have to wait six weeks? She didn't get "Go for this job, or no payments"; or anything else.

 

[hayfield]

 

 

She hated going and had to visit the job centre every 2 or 3 weeks, and had to prove she was applying for work. Probable had to wait 6 weeks, but we are both used to being paid monthly.

 

To be quite honest she would have accepted anything, same as me when I moved jobs 6 years earlier, having to accept whatever was on offer. The fact is I took a job for far less than I was on before and the working hours were not the best. I could not afford to do nothing though,

 

I am afraid we both have been there and played that game.

[alastairq]

14 hours ago, admiles said:

 

Jobs aren't easy to find these days. The "company" was a farm/farmer.  As I said earlier easy to criticize when it isn't your neck directly on the line.

 More information earlier on In  the discussion might have reduced the level of argument somewhat. I thought you were referring to a bus driver!

[boxbrownie]

15 hours ago, admiles said:

 

Jobs aren't easy to find these days. The "company" was a farm/farmer.  As I said earlier easy to criticize when it isn't your neck directly on the line.

The employee really should have reported the Farmer/Farm to the NFU.....there are very strict rules regarding any farm employees.

[Hobby]

Whistle blowing has always been a problem and the smaller the company the less it's likely to happen as the person can more easily be "traced" and then life "made difficult" by the boss... I suspect the only way they could have done it is to come back and then tell all their fellow employees that they have it and to keep their distance and that they have been told by the boss to come to work... That will mean that the boss will soon have no workers left as they'll all get it or will be shamed into giving the time off. I would hope... Probably wouldn't happen, though...

[Oldddudders]

1 minute ago, Hobby said:

Whistle blowing has always been a problem and the smaller the company the less it's likely to happen as the person can more easily be "traced" and then life "made difficult" by the boss... 

That sounds like the real world as I think I know it. Such matters may work fine in large concerns with union representation, but a C21 farm is a tiny group of people. The whistleblower would find himself unemployable in his local community, I bet. 

[chris p bacon]

17 hours ago, admiles said:

The facts are as they are. 

 

Or as they wish to be presented, and in this case to misrepresent. 

 

Much like the vaccination of a few family members in Germany becomes the German vaccination policy. 

[alastairq]

Changing the topic for a moment, I have a neighbour who works in the Care industry.

 

I note much has been made over the past year of the poor PPE equipage, and testing,  within the Care industry. 

Plus, the resultant cries of ''why doesn't the Govt. do something about it?'' Or words to that effect?

 

Well it seems , a significant proportion of the 'Care' industry doesn't involve large companies, or even, small companies....but rather,  a small number of individuals who need to care for just one closely related individual.

In other words, they [the family, usually?] employ Carers to look after that one closely related individual.

 

It appears that it was many/some of these small operations that seemed reluctant to provide their employees with appropriate PPE, or testing.  There seem to be rather a lot of these small operations, too?

 

In this instance it also seemed the employer was definitely one of the ''covid-deniers'....who refused vaccinations, and refused to have their employee carers regularly tested. It appeared the employer didn't even think this would be necessary?

 

Now, as I see it, what if a large number of these small employers, who hired-in two or three carers, had similar attitudes towards testing, PPE, etc? 

 

Would this not lead to false impressions being gained by the public-at-large?   Or the media?

 

The neighbour concerned had a battle with this employer over these issues, which eventually had a decent outcome.....But, in having this battle, they discovered how many others, were in the same situation, as professional carers, not  working for large companies, but working for, effectively, individuals?

 

I suppose the point  I make is that when considering the responses of an industry as a whole, it is too easy to think of large companies employing many people....and ignoring the huge number of small employers?  Those who employ  three or four professional carers? 

 

Who can be easily overlooked because they are not really in the publics' eye?

 

Just a thought, tis all....

[hayfield]

Something that came out yesterday is

 

Almost a quarter of registered Covid deaths are people who are not dying from the disease, new official figures show, 

 

Something that has confused me is that despite other countries seemingly having far greater issues with hospitals being over run and mass burials, the UK which was also in a bad state seemed to be affected far greater with deaths from covid. Certainly with some countries due to either political or lack of testing are seriously under reporting how much covid is affecting their death rate, but when you look at countries with similar size populations and an open reporting system, the numeric difference seems not to add up to the reports we have seen on the media

 

I have always thought that this is all down to the way deaths are reported and perhaps in some societies doctors may for various compassionate reasons alter the cause of death

 

30 odd years ago my mother developed liver cancer, within 6 weeks of the diagnosis she died. to all it was the cancer which killed her though on the death certificate it stated she died from bronchitis

 

Now if this research is to be believed the current rate of those who have died within a 28 days of a positive covid test is 127,161  23% (the number quoted) 29,247 of people who died with covid but not of covid. The real number of people dying of covid is just under 100,000.

 

Perhaps we will never know the real number, but a better way of looking at it is the excess deaths over the normal death rate, it certainly shows the effect covid had

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

The employee really should have reported the Farmer/Farm to the NFU.....there are very strict rules regarding any farm employees.

 

43 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Whistle blowing has always been a problem and the smaller the company the less it's likely to happen as the person can more easily be "traced" and then life "made difficult" by the boss... I suspect the only way they could have done it is to come back and then tell all their fellow employees that they have it and to keep their distance and that they have been told by the boss to come to work... That will mean that the boss will soon have no workers left as they'll all get it or will be shamed into giving the time off. I would hope... Probably wouldn't happen, though...

 

39 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

That sounds like the real world as I think I know it. Such matters may work fine in large concerns with union representation, but a C21 farm is a tiny group of people. The whistleblower would find himself unemployable in his local community, I bet. 

 

From my experience whistle blowing rarely works except in government departments and a few exceptional companies. Most especially banks seem to want to cover up anything that may look bad on the company

[Neil]

Recently I think we've learned that our lived experiences vary widely, as does the information that we access from third parties. The contentious bits come when we assert that  the other person is 'wrong' because it doesn't fit with the world as we know it or believe it to be. The UK is big enough and diverse enough for many different truths to exist; we have bad employers and brilliant employers, wealth and poverty, advantage and disadvantage and all shades in between. It's quite possible that some will be desperate to make ends meet while others will cope well, these two truths aren't mutually exclusive and to deny the existence of one or the other because we don't see it is unwise, particularly in the current context.

[hayfield]

22 minutes ago, chris p bacon said:

 

Or as they wish to be presented, and in this case to misrepresent. 

 

Much like the vaccination of a few family members in Germany becomes the German vaccination policy. 

 

Made me smile a bit as Germany has its problems between the national government and its various states. There seems to be a bit of a power struggle as to how rules are interpreted. The vaccinating the whole family rather than the oldest perhaps is how one of the stated decided to proceed.