Covid - coming out of Lockdown 3 - no politics, less opinion and more facts and information.

[AY Mod]

10 minutes ago, Rods_of_Revolution said:

There should be proper trials that confirm the efficacy of such a policy, with performance measurable in some way.

 

4 minutes ago, Rods_of_Revolution said:

What's worse for community transmission, one unvaccinated person mixing with 30 vaccinated people, or 10 unvaccinated people socialising together because they can't go to the pub?

It's questions like these that need to be addressed.

 

And whilst we're spending months on gathering data?

[hayfield]

2 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Indeed, and the vaccination programme is something to be proud of.

 

Ah, might've changed since I heard then - I thought the possibility of requiring them to go in to a restaurant or stadium was still a possibility. I've no problem with the idea for entering another country. Better make sure it's just that situation we're talking about, we may have been talking a little cross-purposes.

 

From what I understand, its no passport providing you adhere to the latest rules. However if you wish to mix with 40,000 in a football stadium whilst still under restrictions, then a passport is required

[APOLLO]

As said earlier I don't like the idea of Covid passports, but I can understand the points raised for them. We will all find out soon what will be proposed by government. Looks like one will be mandatory for foreign travel if / when that restarts, which in my mind should not be this year (for holiday reasons). A gentle ease out of lockdown IS required.

 

Likewise for the stated two tests per week. Is there more info on this yet, where to obtain etc ? I will go along with this but note the point raised above by Jonboy re security / privacy of information.

 

The Kent strain is kicking off over in Thailand, just a few cases but next week is Songkran, Thai New Year, and lots of travel / parties etc won't help their Covid case count, which up to now has been low. Bars and restaurants have been blamed over there.

 

Took a walk this morning past a local bar / restaurant. They're preparing for outside re opening. Bordering the public footpath there were a while ago four bench type tables, I counted ten this morning all crammed together, hardly any space for walking let alone social distancing. It's a place I normally go (well went to) with mates as it was quiet. Lord knows what it will be like on the first day etc - I won't be going (until after I've had my second AZ jab)  but I might walk past to see what the score is !!  Another pub up the road has put a marquee tent up on the car park and more tables - wonder if such a tent is classed as "outside" ?

 

Brit15

[Reorte]

2 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

I have two past work colleagues who are very much anti vaccine. That is their prerogative and providing this does not affect others then obviously its fine.

 

However when we interact with others we have a moral (and I guess a legal) responsibly not to pass on covid infections especially to those who are most vulnerable.

 

If having a passport which allows us to engage safely with others is a small price to pay to get back to normality, if anyone does not want to engage in this facility then keep away from those who do. Its a free world where we have to respect others wishes

It's not quite that simple though - there's plenty of objection to the idea from people who aren't at all anti-vaccine. "If having a passport..." - that IF is the question; has the case really been made that it will, or is "well it won't make things worse" sufficient?

[hayfield]

1 minute ago, Reorte said:

It's not quite that simple though - there's plenty of objection to the idea from people who aren't at all anti-vaccine. "If having a passport..." - that IF is the question; has the case really been made that it will, or is "well it won't make things worse" sufficient?

 

 

As I said, if you don't want a passport don't expect to go to events which require one. going to anywhere which is meeting the latest set of rules, means you don't need one. An event which is non compliant in the latest covid rules  ( concerts, events, sporting events) where increased numbers are allowed or indoor venues required a passport, its an enabling facility designed to protect others. If you do not like it fine, just don't go !!

[Rods_of_Revolution]

12 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

And whilst we're spending months on gathering data?

 

People will likely die. But it could turn out that more would have died by implementing the 'passport'. There is a price to pay for due diligence, sometimes that price is in lives.

 

There's a reason that vaccines are tested on small numbers of people first, whilst the illness they seek to address is killing people in much larger numbers. If you get the policy wrong you can do more harm than good. It's better to take the time to develop robust policies that work long term with an understood and measurable benefit.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Rods_of_Revolution

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, Rods_of_Revolution said:

But it could turn out that more would have died by implementing the 'passport'.

 

Go on then; how?

[Reorte]

3 minutes ago, Rods_of_Revolution said:

 

People will likely die. But it could turn out that more would have died by implementing the 'passport'. There is a price to pay for due diligence, sometimes that price is in lives.

Although I'm sceptical of passports (once a very large proportion of people have been vaccinated) it's hard to see how it could turn out more will die from implementing it.

[woodenhead]

It's a bit more complicated than that though isn't it.

 

Last year we were sold on the promise of a vaccine that would return life to normal, in the short term we then agreed to abide by the rules set to socially distance even lockdown.

 

That was a bargain struck between the Government and the people of the UK, it was by consent.

 

The Government is now moving the goalposts in a manner that will introduce the one thing we all rejected many years ago - an ID scheme for every citizen, last time it was to counter terror threats, this time it is to prove we are somehow not infected with Covid - but ultimately in both cases they do the same thing, they show who you are to someone else and strip away another element of privacy.

 

The whole world is receiving vaccinations again Covid, the most vulnerable to the illness are receiving it first and serious complications and hospitalisations are dropping as predicted.

 

Even in January we were being told no social restrictions from June but two months later the Government is now back tracking by suggesting we need an ID scheme to fully end distancing.

 

All these restrictions upon us, yet 8000 people a day are coming in from abroad on holiday here in the UK whilst we cannot go abroad and recently couldn't even leave our houses.

 

People coming to the UK will not be subject to these same restrictions as it will be NHS App based, they won't be part of this so it really begs the question what exactly do we need an ID scheme for that won't identify the covid status of visitors.

 

A lot of this is to manage risk, the Government don't want to be accused of unnecessary deaths 2-3 years down the line when an enquiry finally reviews what happened during the period of the pandemic surges. it's more to protect them than us.

 

 

[Rods_of_Revolution]

3 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

Go on then; how?

 

Because if unvaccinated people can't go to the pub, they are more likely to socialise together outside of the pub, instead of with their vaccinated mates inside the pub, so the virus will spread more easily between them. They then visit a supermarket, which under current plans is expempt from the 'passport'. They also go home to their families and into their places of work. That's just one vector off the top of my head.

[hayfield]

5 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

It's a bit more complicated than that though isn't it.

 

Last year we were sold on the promise of a vaccine that would return life to normal, in the short term we then agreed to abide by the rules set to socially distance even lockdown.

 

That was a bargain struck between the Government and the people of the UK, it was by consent.

 

The Government is now moving the goalposts in a manner that will introduce the one thing we all rejected many years ago - an ID scheme for every citizen, last time it was to counter terror threats, this time it is to prove we are somehow not infected with Covid - but ultimately in both cases they do the same thing, they show who you are to someone else and strip away another element of privacy.

 

The whole world is receiving vaccinations again Covid, the most vulnerable to the illness are receiving it first and serious complications and hospitalisations are dropping as predicted.

 

Even in January we were being told no social restrictions from June but two months later the Government is now back tracking by suggesting we need an ID scheme to fully end distancing.

 

All these restrictions upon us, yet 8000 people a day are coming in from abroad on holiday here in the UK whilst we cannot go abroad and recently couldn't even leave our houses.

 

People coming to the UK will not be subject to these same restrictions as it will be NHS App based, they won't be part of this so it really begs the question what exactly do we need an ID scheme for that won't identify the covid status of visitors.

 

A lot of this is to manage risk, the Government don't want to be accused of unnecessary deaths 2-3 years down the line when an enquiry finally reviews what happened during the period of the pandemic surges. it's more to protect them than us.

 

 

 

Is anyone coming into the UK for holidays ? I thought anyone coming in from infected areas must isolate by law unless they are from an exempt group, and from Monday a lot of these must have an up-to-date negative test to both enter and leave the UK. People coming into this country do have to comply with our rules. Though several groups lorry drivers, diplomats, elite sports have different rules, but these are the same for all !!

 

As for what we can do and when its an ever changing situation where our closest neighbours are suffering a massive increase of infections, whilst only slowly getting to grips with a vaccination rollout. The situation must change from week to week, the situation on the continent was very different at the new year than now, though with renewed vigour in Europe over vaccinations what was seen as impossible 2 weeks ago is now seemingly becoming more possible. Where did this ID system come from ?

 

What you call the bargain struck between the UK government and its people is being upheld in the UK far better than any other government certainly in Europe, the light at the end of the tunnel is very much brighter than at the start of the year . I would guess most of those in Europe would swap places with you. Even the financial experts are now predicting a strong recovery over the next 2 years.

 

The covid passports are for special events or possibly going abroad in the future on holiday.

 

Current restrictions end in June, but I guess that some may need extending especially foreign travel.

 

Rather than look at what we cannot do, look at what we can. Thankfully things here are so much better than in those countries closest to us. 

[Hobby]

I think you exaggerate things just a tad, RodsofRev...

Edited April 7, 2021 by Hobby

[hayfield]

21 minutes ago, Rods_of_Revolution said:

 

Because if unvaccinated people can't go to the pub, they are more likely to socialise together outside of the pub, instead of with their vaccinated mates inside the pub, so the virus will spread more easily between them. They then visit a supermarket, which under current plans is expempt from the 'passport'. They also go home to their families and into their places of work. That's just one vector off the top of my head.

 

Unvaccinated people can go to the pub, like everyone else outside at the moment !!!

 

From what I have seen both vaccinated and unvaccinated people will be able to go indoors as before providing regulations are adhered to.

 

Its special events the passports will be used for, both vaccinated and non vaccinated people with an indate negative test

[boxbrownie]

7 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Is anyone coming into the UK for holidays ? 

No idea but I know what they are doing, and right now.....just been down to the pharmacy in the high street and the car park is packed with cars (and small camper vans) with bike racks, roof boxes etc.....these aren’t locals by any means.

I thought it was still “only travel close to home”?

[Rods_of_Revolution]

To illustrate my point above:

 

If you have 1 unvaccinated person in a pub (or cinema etc) with 30 vaccinated people, even if the unvaccinated person has Coronavirus it probably won't spread.

 

If you have 10 unvaccinated people in someone's home socialising (because they can't go to the pub/cinema), if one person has the Coronavirus, it will spread to 2 or 3 others as none of them are vaccinated.

 

In both scenarios, everyone is going to the supermarket the next day, only in one scenario there is one person with Coronavirus, the other scenario there are 3 people with Coronavirus.

 

The vaccination passport will push the unvaccinated to socialise together, this will change how the virus spreads.

 

This is just one example of how the passport could have unintended consequences. The reality is far more complex, so there should be thorough studies conducted before such a policy is implemented. We have the vaccines, we have summer and we have greater immunity overall, so we have a low risk period to undertake such a study.

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Is anyone coming into the UK for holidays ? I thought anyone coming in from infected areas must isolate by law unless they are from an exempt group, and from Monday a lot of these must have an up-to-date negative test to both enter and leave the UK. People coming into this country do have to comply with our rules. Though several groups lorry drivers, diplomats, elite sports have different rules, but these are the same for all !!

 

As for what we can do and when its an ever changing situation where our closest neighbours are suffering a massive increase of infections, whilst only slowly getting to grips with a vaccination rollout. The situation must change from week to week, the situation on the continent was very different at the new year than now, though with renewed vigour in Europe over vaccinations what was seen as impossible 2 weeks ago is now seemingly becoming more possible. Where did this ID system come from ?

 

What you call the bargain struck between the UK government and its people is being upheld in the UK far better than any other government certainly in Europe, the light at the end of the tunnel is very much brighter than at the start of the year . I would guess most of those in Europe would swap places with you. Even the financial experts are now predicting a strong recovery over the next 2 years.

 

The covid passports are for special events or possibly going abroad in the future on holiday.

 

Current restrictions end in June, but I guess that some may need extending especially foreign travel.

 

Rather than look at what we cannot do, look at what we can. Thankfully things here are so much better than in those countries closest to us. 

I was reading about it yesterday with regards people holidaying openly in the UK from abroad, it was surprising to say the least - one chap from Peru put on his visa application he just wanted to visit Big Ben!  Customs cannot stop them as there is no law against coming into the UK due to Covid, we cannot get out but people can get in.

 

Personally, I don't think there should be international travel at present, the rest of the world is playing catch up, Brazil is in a mess and really we need to be considerate of our neighbours who need to focus on recovery too, not staffing hotels and resorts so we can rub their noses in it.

 

The deal struck was the right one at the time, with no vaccine staying socially distanced was the correct course of action, but now we have the vaccine we need to begin to return to normal otherwise we will spend the rest of our lives living in fear.  I cannot think of any other vaccine where people were still asked to prove their status or keep distant from others in case the vaccine hadn't worked.

 

For going abroad, covid tests / proof of vaccination I don't have an issue, it's sensible.  But domestically I don't believe an ID system is the way forward because it will evolve, these things start off innocent enough and then someone finds a new use for them.  We're already tracked enough as it is.

[Hobby]

3 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

No idea but I know what they are doing, and right now.....just been down to the pharmacy in the high street and the car park is packed with cars (and small camper vans) with bike racks, roof boxes etc.....these aren’t locals by any means.

I thought it was still “only travel close to home”?

 

The Stay at Home ended on 29 March, and from 12 April self contained accommodation, including campsites, can reopen. So if they are actually going off to stay at a campsite today then they are jumping the gun by 5 days!

[Hobby]

If Monkeysarefun is reading the last few pages he may now realise why some of us were saying that comparing Aus and the UK was like comparing apples and pears... What chance do we stand when a sensible suggestion to help reduce infections and deaths is questioned so much!

[Dunsignalling]

9 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

No idea but I know what they are doing, and right now.....just been down to the pharmacy in the high street and the car park is packed with cars (and small camper vans) with bike racks, roof boxes etc.....these aren’t locals by any means.

I thought it was still “only travel close to home”?

I expect they are "confused"......

[woodenhead]

15 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

No idea but I know what they are doing, and right now.....just been down to the pharmacy in the high street and the car park is packed with cars (and small camper vans) with bike racks, roof boxes etc.....these aren’t locals by any means.

I thought it was still “only travel close to home”?

I think it is now 'minimise travel' - subtle change but it means we can travel further.

 

Edit to add text from @Hobby's link, I've boldened the minimise word.

Travel

The ‘stay at home’ rule will end on 29 March but many restrictions will remain in place. People should continue to work from home where they can and minimise the number of journeys they make where possible, avoiding travel at the busiest times and routes. Travel abroad will continue to be prohibited, other than for a small number of permitted reasons. Holidays abroad will not be allowed, given it will remain important to manage the risk of imported variants and protect the vaccination programme. The government has launched a new taskforce to review global travel which will report on 12 April.

 

Personally I am staying local till 12th then I will go a little further away because Hotels are allowed to open for overnight stays so tells me it is ok to have days out again but I'll probably wait till May to go any real distance.

Edited April 7, 2021 by woodenhead

[Hobby]

Or they could just read this rather than guess or spread false rumours... My earlier post was taken from it!...

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-response-spring-2021/covid-19-response-spring-2021-summary?priority-taxon=774cee22-d896-44c1-a611-e3109cce8eae

Edited April 7, 2021 by Hobby

[woodenhead]

42 minutes ago, Rods_of_Revolution said:

 

Because if unvaccinated people can't go to the pub, they are more likely to socialise together outside of the pub, instead of with their vaccinated mates inside the pub, so the virus will spread more easily between them. They then visit a supermarket, which under current plans is expempt from the 'passport'. They also go home to their families and into their places of work. That's just one vector off the top of my head.

I don't think Supermarkets have been massive vectors of infection, I've been going every week all through the past 12 months and I wasn't vaccinated till recently.

 

Masks help a little I guess though the fact I could see my breath during the winter actually displayed how little the masks actually stop droplets getting out.

[hayfield]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I was reading about it yesterday with regards people holidaying openly in the UK from abroad, it was surprising to say the least - one chap from Peru put on his visa application he just wanted to visit Big Ben!  Customs cannot stop them as there is no law against coming into the UK due to Covid, we cannot get out but people can get in.

 

Personally, I don't think there should be international travel at present, the rest of the world is playing catch up, Brazil is in a mess and really we need to be considerate of our neighbours who need to focus on recovery too, not staffing hotels and resorts so we can rub their noses in it.

 

The deal struck was the right one at the time, with no vaccine staying socially distanced was the correct course of action, but now we have the vaccine we need to begin to return to normal otherwise we will spend the rest of our lives living in fear.  I cannot think of any other vaccine where people were still asked to prove their status or keep distant from others in case the vaccine hadn't worked.

 

For going abroad, covid tests / proof of vaccination I don't have an issue, it's sensible.  But domestically I don't believe an ID system is the way forward because it will evolve, these things start off innocent enough and then someone finds a new use for them.  We're already tracked enough as it is.

 

For some reason people have a hate on having to conform

 

Take a driving licence, firstly it allows you to drive a car and or lorry coach etc, in accordance with the limitations imposed on the licence.  You do not have to have one, but if you don't you cannot drive a vechial. It probably has the same info as an ID card, but unlike the ID card is accepted and often used when there is a benefit to the owner as a form of ID, on the plus side technology is such that the police can check that the licence being used is both valid and confirms visually its owned.

 

No one is making anyone travel abroad or go to events that attract larger groups than present rules allow. Fine if you don't like it, but many will have valid reasons to have/use one 

[Pete the Elaner]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

I don't think Supermarkets have been massive vectors of infection, I've been going every week all through the past 12 months and I wasn't vaccinated till recently.

 

Masks help a little I guess though the fact I could see my breath during the winter actually displayed how little the masks actually stop droplets getting out.

 

Supermarkets are a necessity. Even if we could all do home shopping, the supermarket aisles would still be full of people shopping on behalf of others.

 

Masks make a big difference to how air is breathed out. During the winter you could not see your exhaled breath travelling anywhere near as far. Water droplets carrying bacteria & viri are carried by the breath.

Just try blowing out a candle while wearing one. It is not at all easy.

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

For some reason people have a hate on having to conform

 

There is always the argument if you have nothing to hide there is nothing to worry about and all those CCTV cameras are there to protect you - but now we live in a society where people have camera's and microphones in their doorbell that pick up everything that goes on around the house, people flying drones everywhere with cameras whilst the Government is introducing bills to restrict people's right to protest.

 

I know this is going off topic but I worry for the future and I have a real concern that a Covid status app is just another name for a Covid ID status which is another name for an ID.

Edited April 7, 2021 by woodenhead
not replaced with now