Ruston's Industrial locomotive and wagon workshop thread.

[Engineer]

My apology again for the thread drift.  Agree on the fascination of the island's rail and tram lines, especially as tramways are a main topic of interest for me.

I, too, photographed the door to the East Shop, 1960s birthplace (under licence) of many Sulzer engines for BR and other railways.  A century ago the building was known as the Howitzer Shop and the rail line heads straight through and carries on to reach the '100 foot' curve, Shipyard Junction and the Furness.  It was therefore one of the main links to the national rail network for Vickers materiel generally, and for its rail projects.

I photographed the doorway on the other side of Michaelson Road into the enormous Gun Shop - would be fascinating to see inside.  The single line ran across the shop and connected to the tangled web of rails on the other side.  Much internal rail traffic passed this way.

There's a lovely aerial view showing the rail crossing between the workshops either side of Michaelson Road, and also showing the tram lines and their crossing of the Furness Railway street tracks at the intersection: 

https://britainfromabove.org.uk/image/EPW004065

I should drag the topic back a bit towards 'industrial' locomotives because these were the research subject that caused me to take an interest in Vickers and the Barrow Island railways (note houses in Ferry Road in the background):

 

https://collections.dockmuseum.org.uk/mwebcgi/mweb?request=record;id=19437;type=101

Edited July 3 by Engineer
Rectifying link

[Ruston]

My attention has been diverted away from building Cyclops by the arrival of this thing.

Dapol's 14-inch Hawthorn Leslie. Even as it stands it's going to need tinkering with. The design of the keep means that there's a massive slab of plastic under the buffer beam, which by the way has a big lump cut out to accommodate the coupling. A filler piece is provided but as the buffer beam is very thin and the filler piece even thinner, it's going to need some additional work for it not to either just fall out or the join not be seen. The filler piece is only provided with this particular livery, so if you buy any of the others you're left to make something from scratch in any case. The handwheel on the smokebox door is oversized by about 1.8mm or about 5 inches in scale!

 

Dapol have fitted these models with the most ridiculous and useless flywheel that I've ever seen. It's about 7mm in diameter and even shorter in length. Not that flywheels are of any use in small, slow-speed shunting engines anyway. That will be chopped off, the Next 18 PCB ripped out and I will attempt to fit sound and Stay Alive under the tank.

 

I ave also been making plans to convert one of these into a Bagnall. They are very similar dimensionally and in overall appearance. I can't remember the exact history but I think it had something to do with a designer moving from Robert Stephenson & Hawthorns to Bagnalls.

 

But Cyclops needs to be finished first.

[Ruston]

6 hours ago, Ruston said:

But Cyclops needs to be finished first.

OK, so I lied...

Well lubricated, innit? A single squirt of white grease that hasn't actually touched any of the bearing surfaces or moving parts. About as much use as a chocolate fireguard...

 

 

 

[Ruston]

Another warranty successfully voided.

 

One for the flywheel fans. You know how you think that a flywheel is useful? That huge rotating mass storing energy to keep the loco going over dirt on the track that interrupts pickup. And how the stored energy makes running smoother and evens out "cogging" and all that rubbish?

a

Keep on telling yourselves that it makes a difference. 🤣Alright, so I did take it off and put it back on the scale and it did register 1g but still...

 

 

[Ruston]

With the flywheel off, the the speaker housing binned, the N18 PCB binned, and the cast stubs that its fixing screws go into chopped off, there's plenty of room for a decoder, speaker and Stay Alive in there.

The decoder shown is a defunct dumb 6-pin job but it's about the same size as some of the smaller sound decoders, so if it fits they will, too. The speaker is under the SA but being self-contained it doesn't need to be in the factory-fitted housing, which by being binned saves 3mm in height to allow the SA and decoder to sit alongside one another.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Despite the fact that the flywheel doesn't weigh much, if you do your flywheel mass calculation, you know, the one from your engineering apprenticeship days!!, then you'd be impressed by the amount of energy it imparts, especially talking percentage wise.

 

Mike.

[Ruston]

4 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Despite the fact that the flywheel doesn't weigh much, if you do your flywheel mass calculation, you know, the one from your engineering apprenticeship days!!, then you'd be impressed by the amount of energy it imparts, especially talking percentage wise.

 

Mike.

I'm not an engineer,  Mike, so I don't know about flywheel mass calculation. What I know about them on small model locos, from experience and a few rough experiments is that something that small and light isn't going to make any noticeable difference to the performance.  They certainly work if the flywheel is of a decent size, and the loco is travelling fast enough. I used to have a Bachmann Class 46 diesel that had two flywheels of about 3/4 of an inch diameter. It could be driven up to a fairly high speed and the controller direction switch centred to cut the power and it would coast for up to 12 inches before coming to a stop.

 

But if you run a small industrial shunting engine at a realistic speed, such a tiny flywheel isn't going to have anything like the same effect.

 

I once tried to see what effect a flywheel really has by running a loco on DC, with a voltmeter connected to the track.  I ran it at the sort of speed I would run it on a layout and noted the voltage that gave that speed. 

 

I then took the same model of Mashima motor as in the loco and wired it directly to the controller,  again with a voltmeter.  I fitted a plasticard disc to the shaft and put a mark on the disc. I ran the motor at the voltage that I had used on the loco run and cut the power. The motor appeared to stopped spinning almost immediately. 

 

I did the same, with the same motor but with a flywheel added and this time it managed around 1.5 revolutions before stopping. 

 

But in a loco, that 1.5 revolutions is diminished by the gearing. At 60:1, which is what I tend to use in kit-built locos, how many degrees are you left with at the wheels? Some kits use 108:1, so how far does the flywheel take the loco? Enough to make a difference if it loses pick up? I don't suppose anyone can ever prove that. It's all just opinion just like this is mine and you know what they say about opinions  😄

 

I think they're a waste of space anyway and much prefer DCC with a Stay Alive,  which is proven to work far more effectively than any flywheel anyone could ever fit in a OO model loco. 

[Flying Pig]

On 07/07/2024 at 14:23, Ruston said:

Another warranty successfully voided.

 

One for the flywheel fans. You know how you think that a flywheel is useful? That huge rotating mass storing energy to keep the loco going over dirt on the track that interrupts pickup. And how the stored energy makes running smoother and evens out "cogging" and all that rubbish?

a

Keep on telling yourselves that it makes a difference. 🤣Alright, so I did take it off and put it back on the scale and it did register 1g but still...

 

 

 

Well that's more enlightening than the usual unboxing.  Could I ask a few mostly cosmetic questions, please?

• what size tool is needed to remove the crankpins?
• did you find a potion to remove printed detail cleanly?
• did you find a match for the green, or did you have to mix it?

 

[Ruston]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

Well that's more enlightening than the usual unboxing.  Could I ask a few mostly cosmetic questions, please?

• what size tool is needed to remove the crankpins?
• did you find a potion to remove printed detail cleanly?
• did you find a match for the green, or did you have to mix it?

 

Flat-nosed tweezers.

T Cut.

Tamiya Park Green with a drop of yellow added. It's near enough once it's under weathering.

 

[Ruston]

Sound and Stay Alive now fitted. All that's required to complete is a crew and some couplings. The couplings that come with it are probably the best 3-links that I've seen on a RTR industrial but they don't work as useable items. The hook is, I expect, actually to scale and so it's very difficult to get a link to stay on it. The top link is a very nice shackle but it's far too tight on the hook to swing, so I'll replace them with my own-made hooks and links.

 

[Ruston]

 

 

On 06/07/2024 at 12:57, Ruston said:

I Have also been making plans to convert one of these into a Bagnall. They are very similar dimensionally and in overall appearance. I can't remember the exact history but I think it had something to do with a designer moving from Robert Stephenson & Hawthorns to Bagnalls.

 

Ernest E. Baguley. Chief Draughtsman, trained at Hawthorn Leslie. Moved from there,  not RSH as it was still HL at the time.

[zr2498]

On 08/07/2024 at 12:10, Ruston said:

I'm not an engineer,  Mike, so I don't know about flywheel mass calculation. What I know about them on small model locos, from experience and a few rough experiments is that something that small and light isn't going to make any noticeable difference to the performance.  They certainly work if the flywheel is of a decent size, and the loco is travelling fast enough. I used to have a Bachmann Class 46 diesel that had two flywheels of about 3/4 of an inch diameter. It could be driven up to a fairly high speed and the controller direction switch centred to cut the power and it would coast for up to 12 inches before coming to a stop.

 

But if you run a small industrial shunting engine at a realistic speed, such a tiny flywheel isn't going to have anything like the same effect.

 

I once tried to see what effect a flywheel really has by running a loco on DC, with a voltmeter connected to the track.  I ran it at the sort of speed I would run it on a layout and noted the voltage that gave that speed. 

 

I then took the same model of Mashima motor as in the loco and wired it directly to the controller,  again with a voltmeter.  I fitted a plasticard disc to the shaft and put a mark on the disc. I ran the motor at the voltage that I had used on the loco run and cut the power. The motor appeared to stopped spinning almost immediately. 

 

I did the same, with the same motor but with a flywheel added and this time it managed around 1.5 revolutions before stopping. 

 

But in a loco, that 1.5 revolutions is diminished by the gearing. At 60:1, which is what I tend to use in kit-built locos, how many degrees are you left with at the wheels? Some kits use 108:1, so how far does the flywheel take the loco? Enough to make a difference if it loses pick up? I don't suppose anyone can ever prove that. It's all just opinion just like this is mine and you know what they say about opinions  😄

 

I think they're a waste of space anyway and much prefer DCC with a Stay Alive,  which is proven to work far more effectively than any flywheel anyone could ever fit in a OO model loco. 

Hi Dave

I am a mechanical engineer as it so happens, and I have to agree with you re the HL flywheel.

The stored kinetic energy is proportional to the angular velocity squared, and proportional to the moment of inertia which has mass and radius squared included.

As, not only is the mass and radius of the flywheel so very small, the biggest factor would be the lack of speed when traversing points with such a locomotive. As you have already done, with a loco having such a short wheel base, and for prototypical operation a stay alive is by far the best solution. Instead of having to speed up to ensure getting through a set of points!

 

Thanks for pointing me in this direction. I have not fitted many sound systems to small industrial locos as yet, so some further advise would be appreciated.

You have used a Lais stay alive. Was that wired directly to the decoder or was an interface chip needed. I guess that depends on the decoder used and on whether it has on board stay alive control.

 

What size speaker did you manage to get in, after ripping out the non essential parts.

 

Dave

 

[Ruston]

1 hour ago, zr2498 said:

You have used a Lais stay alive. Was that wired directly to the decoder or was an interface chip needed. I guess that depends on the decoder used and on whether it has on board stay alive control.

 

What size speaker did you manage to get in, after ripping out the non essential parts.

 

Lais have the control circuits built in and so it's simply a case of the common (blue) wire on the decoder going to the blue wire on the SA and the (on the new MS series decoders) black/white wire on the decoder going to the black wire on the SA. Don't use the blue/white wire that is shown on the diagram as being for a "capacitor" because it is literally only for a capacitor and not a full SA unit, like the Lais.

 

I went for the LimoCurve6, from Youchoos. It's 16x9x6mm. It's plenty loud enough. In fact I will need to turn down the overall volume on it.

The decoder is a Zimo MS500, the one that comes with an 8-pin plug on wires. I chopped the plug off, shortened the wires as required and hardwired everything. I bought it from Digitrains and had the L&Y Pug project loaded onto it.

[wagonman]

"All that's required to complete is a crew and some couplings"

 

 

Modelu is your friend... https://www.modelu3d.co.uk/product-category/finescale-figures/locospecificcrew/Dapol/Dapol-oo-hawthorn-leslie/

[Gary H]

Afternoon Dave,

Would it be possible to wire in a Lais SA to the original board ? 

Would'nt mind going down the same route as yours but its cost prohibitive at the moment.

[Ruston]

3 hours ago, Gary H said:

Afternoon Dave,

Would it be possible to wire in a Lais SA to the original board ? 

Would'nt mind going down the same route as yours but its cost prohibitive at the moment.

I can't say for sure. I couldn't see any solder pads where one could be attached but you'd be better off asking Dapol for a proper answer. I don't think you'd be able to fit the Lais in in any case. Not if you're using sound anyway because there isn't enough space.

[Ruston]

I have a load more of those Dapol HLs to weather and fit crews to, for a friend, plus one more of my own. But now it's back to Cyclops.

 

The smokebox door is now shaped, has hinges and fixed in place. It has a cast whitemetal handwheel added. I've been hoarding this in my box of small fittings for years and can't remember where it came from.

The tank now has steps and a fixing bracket and there are sand boxes on the running plate. These are solid brass, made by layering sheet engraving brass and soldering the layers using the RSU.

They are in the shadow, under the cab, but the rear sand boxes have also been made and fitted, the cab rear sheet has a cover for the hand brake handle and handrails have also been added. The firebox is full of lead sheet, as is all but a space left for the DCC gear in the tank. Current weight 303g.

 

[Ruston]

I forgot about these two photos of making the crossheads and slide bars. They're still ongoing.

A layer of 40 thou. engraving brass, sandwiched between two layers of 22 thou.

 

Apologies for the blurred photo - damn mobile telephone picture!  The slide bars are quite chunky but then they do appear to have been so on the prototype. I have added that stretcher that connects the bars part way along their length and through which the piston rod passes. I assume this was to help to prevent the bars from flexing as they were very long.

 

[Ruston]

I wasn't happy with those slide bars. They were a bit too chunky and also not spaced far enough apart, so I've done the entire lot again. The crosshead looks better now, too. I have to make some fiddly bits and attach the piston rod to the crosshead, which is the correct way round this time.

[Ruston]

One side almost done. The excess slide bar material, aft of the motion bracket, needs trimming and then theres only the other side and brakes all-round to complete the chassis.

And pickups.  I always forget the pickups.

 

The body is all done bar the springs. This is where I'd 3D-print them, if I had a 3D printer and had a clue how to drive a computer to do the design. I'll have to bite the bullet and get on and make them from individual leaves.

 

Edit: Cab steps. I still need to make those. And the chimney!

 

Edited July 18 by Ruston

[AlfaZagato]

Ah, the project list.   I'm almost done! Except, except, except...

 

I post in jest.

[Ruston]

Springs.

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Branch.

 

Mike.

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Branch.

 

Mike.

Are we on word association now? Mint Balls.

 

Seriously, this loco is coming along very nicely and I admire your dedication in making springs from individual leaves!

[Ruston]

13 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Are we on word association now? Mint Balls.

 

Seriously, this loco is coming along very nicely and I admire your dedication in making springs from individual leaves!

I don't about dedication. I don't have a lot of choice, to be fair. There isn't anything available to buy that will suit and getting someone to design and print resin springs would cost a lot and take an age. I hate working to other people's timetables, so if it's something I can do myself then do it I will.

 

They're not looking too bad. The prototype appears to have used 20 leaves and mine only have 14, but that's a lot more than you get on some etched kits. They're also a bit flat across the top but then the picture of Possum, at Port Kembla, shows them almost flattened out after nearly 50 years of use, so I'm not going to worry about that.

The two at the bottom need their buckles but will only need one spring eye each as they will have to be cut short where they butt up against the cab. In reality there was an opening in the cab sheet, but I forgot to put that in when I made the cab and it's all too far advanced to redo that now. The next thing is to make the spring hangers.