Ruston's Industrial locomotive and wagon workshop thread.

[cctransuk]

15 minutes ago, Ruston said:

Certainly not but you're on the right track. It is the chimney that I am attempting to make and I'm a bit stuck with it.

 

I have made a few chimneys and turning the chimney itself is relatively easy. It's the base that's the problem, where it has to conform to the curve of the smokebox. Those that I've made before were a bit of a bodge and filed by hand as I didn't know at all how to do them.

 

What I have since learned is that the bottom of the base has to be shaped using a fly cutter, with the piece held in a special holder. I don't have either of these things on my tiny Unimat lathe and so I had the idea of soldering profiles together thus:

 

That lump was turned to produce this:

It fits the smokebox perfectly but I don't know where to go from here. I can't see how the complex shape of the base can form just by turning it.
I must have got something wrong.

 

There is a way to do it - I read it in either MRJ or one of the Wild Swan loco building books.

 

The simpler way is to turn the base, whilst mounted on a mandrel in the chuck, to the front view profile. Then the side view profile is achieved with files.

 

I'll check my workshop reference database later.

 

In passing, a fly-cutter is a very useful and inexpensive accessory - worth acquiring one.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

Certainly not but you're on the right track. It is the chimney that I am attempting to make and I'm a bit stuck with it.

 

I have made a few chimneys and turning the chimney itself is relatively easy. It's the base that's the problem, where it has to conform to the curve of the smokebox. Those that I've made before were a bit of a bodge and filed by hand as I didn't know at all how to do them.

 

What I have since learned is that the bottom of the base has to be shaped using a fly cutter, with the piece held in a special holder. I don't have either of these things on my tiny Unimat lathe and so I had the idea of soldering profiles together thus:

 

That lump was turned to produce this:

It fits the smokebox perfectly but I don't know where to go from here. I can't see how the complex shape of the base can form just by turning it.
I must have got something wrong.

 

Further to my response earlier, my workshop database refers to MRJs 50, 52 & 79; (which I have).

 

Other references are Model Railways 10/74 and 6,8/83; (which I had until earlier this week, when all my model railway mags., with the exception of a full set of MRJs, went for recycling!

 

If you need further help, PM me.

 

John Isherwood.

 

 

[Barclay]

23 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

which I had until earlier this week, when all my model railway mags., with the exception of a full set of MRJs, went for recycling!

 

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Barclay]

I must admit, having recently acquired a Unimat, I would love to be able to turn boiler fittings, but it seems about a thousand light years ahead of the simple turning I'm able to do. A friend of mine uses flycutters on his Unimat I'm sure so it is possible.

[Ruston]

4 hours ago, cctransuk said:

If you need further help, PM me.

Thanks, John but I think it's gone beyond help.

 

It was going well. I turned the basic shape and was about the have a go at hand-filing the flare on the outside. I didn't part the chimney off completely as I wanted something to hold on to whilst filing and so put it in a hand vice. That's when it all went wrong.

I forgot that it was just a stack of laminations and not a solid bar and put it in the vice against the grain, so to speak. The side pressure caused a joint to fail and that was that.

 

3 hours ago, Barclay said:

I must admit, having recently acquired a Unimat, I would love to be able to turn boiler fittings, but it seems about a thousand light years ahead of the simple turning I'm able to do. A friend of mine uses flycutters on his Unimat I'm sure so it is possible.

It's not just a matter of using a fly cutter. I have now discovered that to make a chimney also requires a flare jig, which I don't think is something that can be bought off the shelf and has to be made. I don't have one and so that is why I was going to attempt to file it by hand.

 

I'll have a look at what is available for sale and if I can find a suitable chimney I'll buy one. Or perhaps see if I can get one 3D printed. For the number of chimneys I make it's not worth investing in a fly cutter and making a flare jig.

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, Barclay said:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I offered them to my local steam railway - "No thanks".

 

Then emailed the local MRS - no reply.

 

I mentioned them here on RMweb - no response.

 

Tried the local 'Free to a good home' website - no response.

 

So to the local recycling centre they went - all 650 kg. of them!

 

Continuous runs, some going back to the 1960s, of several titles.

 

Shame - but they were hardly ever opened nowadays.

 

CJI.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

Thanks, John but I think it's gone beyond help.

 

It was going well. I turned the basic shape and was about the have a go at hand-filing the flare on the outside. I didn't part the chimney off completely as I wanted something to hold on to whilst filing and so put it in a hand vice. That's when it all went wrong.

I forgot that it was just a stack of laminations and not a solid bar and put it in the vice against the grain, so to speak. The side pressure caused a joint to fail and that was that.

 

It's not just a matter of using a fly cutter. I have now discovered that to make a chimney also requires a flare jig, which I don't think is something that can be bought off the shelf and has to be made. I don't have one and so that is why I was going to attempt to file it by hand.

 

I'll have a look at what is available for sale and if I can find a suitable chimney I'll buy one. Or perhaps see if I can get one 3D printed. For the number of chimneys I make it's not worth investing in a fly cutter and making a flare jig.

 

Years ago, during my narrow gauge period, I used to turn chimneys and domes from brass in the chuck of a power drill, using files; (not recommended, but do-able with care).

 

I would turn the base to a profile midway between the front and side profiles. Then, I would anneal (soften) the brass by heating to red heat and allow it to cool naturally; (don't cool it quickly, it'll get harder).

 

Once annealed, the chimney / dome was placed on a steel bar of the same diameter as the smokebox / boiler, and carefully tapped with a hammer until the front and back flares are formed.

 

After that, the side flares can be formed by pressing against the smokebox / boiler with a round steel bar.

 

Crude - but it works; just make sure that the item is upright during the forming process.

 

CJI.

[AlfaZagato]

Maybe you should make a Giesel?  I know you're modelling a specific loco.  An industrial with a Giesel isn't the most absurd thing in the world, though.   A Giesel is also a very straightforward shape, too.

[Barclay]

13 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I offered them to my local steam railway - "No thanks".

 

Then emailed the local MRS - no reply.

 

I mentioned them here on RMweb - no response.

 

Tried the local 'Free to a good home' website - no response.

 

So to the local recycling centre they went - all 650 kg. of them!

 

Continuous runs, some going back to the 1960s, of several titles.

 

Shame - but they were hardly ever opened nowadays.

 

CJI.

I quite understand, I've had no luck getting rid of my pile of duplicates, no-one seems to want them any more. Like you I particularly value my MRJ collection!

[Michael Edge]

12 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

 

 

I would turn the base to a profile midway between the front and side profiles. Then, I would anneal (soften) the brass by heating to red heat and allow it to cool naturally; (don't cool it quickly, it'll get harder).

 

Once annealed, the chimney / dome was placed on a steel bar of the same diameter as the smokebox / boiler, and carefully tapped with a hammer until the front and back flares are formed.

 

After that, the side flares can be formed by pressing against the smokebox / boiler with a round steel bar.

 

Crude - but it works; just make sure that the item is upright during the forming process.

 

CJI.

That's not crude at all, I use a lathe and now squeeze the chimney/dome in a machine vice rather than hitting it with a hammer but otherwise exactly the same. I did do this with a flycutter and finish with files years ago though and this is the flycutter I made back then.

It's a short length of steel bar cross drilled at one end, the cutter is a bit of a broken drill ground off and held with a 6BA screw in the end of the bar. Seen here perched on my small Toyo lathe but it was originally used in a Unimat and still sees occasional use now.

[5050]

I bought/acquired all the bits to make the MRJ 'flare' cutter some years ago - and they're still in my 'to do' pile. A big lump of steel, a decent spring, a length of rod etc.  One day.......................

[Neilgue]

Not that I’ve done it, but I remember reading that you turn the curve on the base flat, then form it around the smoke box afterwards. Perhaps hollow out the base and a bit of annealing wouldn’t go astray. 

[davknigh]

A superb resource for machine tool practise can be found here: https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=132&t=6350&p=81211&hilit=Turning+a+flare#top

 

HTH

 

David

[Ruston]

Thanks for the replies regarding making chimneys. If I get a better, and perhaps slightly larger, lathe then it'll be worth having the kit to do this stuff properly.

 

I stuck the two parts back together using Loctite and also stuck a 2mm diameter loco axle in there to reinforce it. I then filed the flare by hand.

 

It's a chimney, Jim, but not as we know it.

I won't be using it as someone has kindly offered to make a proper one for me.

 

1814 had at least 3 different chimneys in its life.

The two on the left show the original, short, one. Next is what appears to be a taller Manning Wardle replacement and the final one is yet another tall one. Note that the final one shows a replacement, welded, smokebox without a lamp iron or the ball-ended hand rail pillar.

 

I have chosen to have the short chimney.

[cctransuk]

9 minutes ago, Ruston said:

Thanks for the replies regarding making chimneys. If I get a better, and perhaps slightly larger, lathe then it'll be worth having the kit to do this stuff properly.

 

I stuck the two parts back together using Loctite and also stuck a 2mm diameter loco axle in there to reinforce it. I then filed the flare by hand.

 

It's a chimney, Jim, but not as we know it.

I won't be using it as someone has kindly offered to make a proper one for me.

 

1814 had at least 3 different chimneys in its life.

The two on the left show the original, short, one. Next is what appears to be a taller Manning Wardle replacement and the final one is yet another tall one. Note that the final one shows a replacement, welded, smokebox without a lamp iron or the ball-ended hand rail pillar.

 

I have chosen to have the short chimney.

 

I would assure you that a Unimat 3 is perfectly capable of turning chimneys and domes for 4mm. scale.

 

If you use the 'average profile / anneal / force form' method, that is described above, no extra kit is required.

 

CJI.

[Ruston]

9 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I would assure you that a Unimat 3 is perfectly capable of turning chimneys and domes for 4mm. scale.

 

If you use the 'average profile / anneal / force form' method, that is described above, no extra kit is required.

 

CJI.

I'm sure it is but this anneal/ fore form method is something that I can't get my head around at all.

 

On 23/05/2024 at 19:08, cctransuk said:

Once annealed, the chimney / dome was placed on a steel bar of the same diameter as the smokebox / boiler, and carefully tapped with a hammer until the front and back flares are formed.

 

After that, the side flares can be formed by pressing against the smokebox / boiler with a round steel bar.

I can't picture it at all, especially that last sentence. I know what annealing is but I'm trying to imagine how a chimney that's made from a solid brass bar can become soft enough to be formed simply by pressing against it with a steel bar. There's obviously something that I'm missing. I guess I'd have to see it done to understand it.

 

I have had a go at making springs.

 

The gap between the top leaf and the others shouldn't be as noticeable after a few layers of paint plus weathering. Of course that's just the first one so the next ones should be better anyway. They're really only a shape, an impression of a spring. It's impossible to scribe the real number of leaves, which are in the dozens on the prototype.

 

 

 

 

[davknigh]

The trick with forming the flare is first you have to get the lower portion thin enough that it will deform when annealed and pressed/hammered. I did it once many years back and IIRC I drilled out the centre, counter sunk the bottom end then turned the outside to match. ISTR a mandrel was used after that to finish the rest of the shape. This was 40+ years ago but the main thing was to get the skirt part as thin as possible before annealing and pressing/hammering.

 

HTH

 

David

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, davknigh said:

The trick with forming the flare is first you have to get the lower portion thin enough that it will deform when annealed and pressed/hammered. I did it once many years back and IIRC I drilled out the centre, counter sunk the bottom end then turned the outside to match. ISTR a mandrel was used after that to finish the rest of the shape. This was 40+ years ago but the main thing was to get the skirt part as thin as possible before annealing and pressing/hammering.

 

HTH

 

David

 

Spot-on!

 

The 'bell' or flare can be bored out on the inside with a handheld scraper, whilst mounted on the mandrel, or even on an extension of the chimney cap, prior to parting-off. It needs to be as thin as the flare on a bought-in turned brass chimney.

 

Once annealed, brass is remarkably easy to deform - or in our case REform into the front and side profiles required.

 

Gentle tapping with a hammer, or squeezing in a vice, will form the front and rear flares, and pressure at the sides with a round bar will form the side flares. Use of the round bar will ensure a smooth transition from one to the other.

 

It really isn't difficult - I copied the method from a description in RM quite early in my modelling career, when I had few tools and even less skills!

 

CJI.

[Michael Edge]

I machine boiler fittings bottom outwards in the lathe, makes it easier to hollow them out but a bit more difficult to get the shape of domes right. I use hand held tools to do most of the hollowing out, 

[Ruston]

The chassis is almost finished.

 

It needs brakes and pickups.

 

I went to Railex, yesterday, and bought a few bits and pieces. Whistle, hand rail pillars, springs and buffers.

 

Other bodywork jobs to do:

 

Finish boiler backhead and install in cab.

Finish smokebox door and add hinges etc.

Make and fit sand boxes, reach rod, cab steps, couplings.

Fit hand brake column and reverser.

 

Paint

 

Make and fit pipework and injectors.

 

[Ruston]

I think the Chief Civil Engineer might have nightmares at this. 😆

[Ruston]

Smokebox door done and one sand box made and fitted. The backhead has a rough representation of the type of firehole door that can be found on larger MWs. The water gauges and regulator are castings that were lying around in the spares box.

[Ruston]

Brakes.

 

The same patterns were used as on the previous MW, which were originated for the first build of that type. One difference this time being in that I made a rough jig to assemble them, which made things quicker and easier. The other difference is that I made the brake shoes from plasticard this time. The shoes are free to pivot on the brass wire and so can take up the exact position against the wheel and also, being plastic, there is no danger of a short circuit.

Top right shows the parts straight off the pantograph. Lower is one assembly. Just five more to do...

[Ruston]

Cab steps added and the tank filler changed. It was another casting, found in the spares box, but wasn't right for this loco, so I made a new one that looks much better.

The chimney is a magnificent piece of work, by @ian@stenochs.

 

The cab and tank are going to need rivet transfers and I've been looking at what's available from @railtec-models but I don't know what size and spacing to order. The rivets on the tank are very closely spaced, including some that are in a double row, whilst those on the cab are more widely spaced. Any ideas?

[Ruston]

No one got any ideas about which rivets to use?

 

Never mind.

 

The backhead is ready for paint. The manifold looks a bit wonky in this photo but it isn't. The regulator and gauge glasses are castings, found in the spares box, but everything else is made from scratch. I thought that I had some etched handwheels somewhere but they've gone AWOL and I had to make my own. What was it you said about me wanting to make everything on the pantograph, @Michael Edge? 😆

 

It's not the best but most of will be unseen in the cab in any case.