Accurascale's First Steam Locomotive; GWR Collett 78xx Manor Class!

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

If the next one undershoots your ambition and "only" turns out to be equal to the Manor, I doubt you'll hear many gripes! Certainly not from me....

 

John

Judging by the EP photos it s definitely heading that way John - and its history and detail changes are even more frequent and complex that a GWR engine.

Edited August 31, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[No Decorum]

2 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

I have had a chance to play with a sound-fitted diesel made by another manufacturer on a friends layout. He bought the DCC sound fitted option, even though he has a DC layout, as the sound (and some of the lights) work as you gradually crank up the DC voltage. I was entranced. However, after a little while I realised that the loco was less controllable at slow speed as compared with the identical DC version that I already had, so I decided not to bother myself.

 

Like yourself, I was entranced by my first model with sound but, unlike you, I have never looked back. My ancient layout has four control panels, duplicated except that the switches for point motors are on only one panel. Controllers have come and gone but one is now a DCC controller and the other three DC. I can run either DC or DCC and even (after double checking my switches in case of misadventure) run DC on one part of the layout and DCC on another.

 

I accept that sound cannot match the real thing. A diesel will not reverberate in the lungs as a real one can and the whoosh of a steam locomotive starting is tinny in comparison with the real thing. However, it is representative and is a compromise as is so much else. Gauge, sleeper spacing, automatic couplings of any sort, outside valve gear stuck in the same setting and so on. As an early adopter of sound, I have noted how much more sophisticated sound has become since those early days.

[No Decorum]

20 hours ago, Cofga said:

 

I finally finished editing and now have my in-depth Manor review up on my YouTube channel. It’s been great to follow Fran and the rest of the Accurascale team as they went through the process of developing this model. I really want to thank them for allowing so many of us to participate in this project—Larry

 

A superb review – thank you for taking the trouble. With sound-fitted locos, I tend not to open the tenders on the principle of “leave well alone”, so I was fascinated to see inside it, particularly the well for a double sugar-cube speaker. I don’t think the GWR versions of the Manor came with headboards. Mine didn’t.

 

If you don’t mind my mentioning, what you called the steam dome is actually the safety valve bonnet. The end of the steam pipe on the bigger GWR locos was in the top front of the firebox water space. Likely that was why the front of the firebox was higher than the back.

[Jon Harbour]

14 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

...... but all those of us who use DC, (the majority?), have just bought a load of useless electronic gadgetry, and lost valuable space for adhesive weight.

 

I have yet to hear a DCC sound steam model that comes within a mile of sounding like the real thing - and I heard that from the lineside back in the 50s and 60s!

 

I wonder how many enthusiasts of my age buy sound-fitted models?

 

CJI.

 

More and more I suspect.... 

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Only 6 then . But enough for you to experience Manors etc first hand…

Bloomin' kids!

 

Just for info the first trains I travelled would almost inevitably have been in GWR livery although the company itself had ceased to exist some months earlier (its demise predated my arrival by 27hrs 30 minutes).  Ian Hargrave however is definitely in a more senior position .

 

Because of the knowledge I've acquired due to my age plus my past involvement in mainline steam preservation and operation I agree very much with CJL's comments about steam sound.  It has yet to be done properly in 4mm scale although I know one modeller (an RMweb member) who is working hard trying to crack it.  But really to get it right does require some knowledge of how steam engine sound works and what creates and taht in turn means having to 'drive' a steam outline model in a way that isn't necessary with diesels.  Steam sound will never be right unless there is what amounts to an equivalent of a reverser controlling the cut-off.

 

A/S have undoubtedly got what in my experience is probably the best diesel sound I have ever heard on their Class 37.  The 50 will be an interesting challenge but as so much of their sound is controlled. by the electronics - making them a bit less interesting to drive in my experience - it should also be a good subject.   But any diesel sound model needs to take account of teh field diverts cutting in to get it really right.   Sound 'viewpoint' - i.e where it is recorded and where it is heard in relation to the position of the subject - also needs to be carefully considered.

 

Anyway back to the 'Manor' and I'm looking forward to mine with considerable anticipation fully understanding that they won't be here until they arrive.

[ed 66 plant]

I do not have to go back to my trainspotting days on Wolves Low Level in the mid 50,s to recall the Manor sound accompanied by the very distinctive bark as it got the train moving.

In the late 80,s I watched and heard a Manor set off from Porthmadog and this refreshed my memory.

Delight ,nostalgia and emotion flooded back.

Also having heard the sound reproduction quality on the various reviews I find these very acceptable and realistic.

As for adhesive weight and pulling power these same reviews show the loco easily hauling 4/5 coaches up  1 in 53 inclines via 30 inch radius curves--I doubt whether the real Manor would cope with that.

If  however you operate on analogue and  want more weight in the tender remove the electronic gadgetry and-----.

There are many variations of Manor class locos available and because we all have our own preferences you can choose from a wide range of options

I eagerly await my order and I can maybe add more afterwards.

I do think that the beautifully detailed model will require minimal/careful handling and being of an age where my dexterity and sight  are not as they used to be , I foresee a growing need to find the expertise to maintain my loco. This is not that well catered for as things stand?? Will there be help in this direction?

Finally on the sound reviews I do not recall hearing the characteristic air pump slap--is this on the menu?

Ed  80 P

 

[St Enodoc]

1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

Bloomin' kids!

 

Just for info the first trains I travelled would almost inevitably have been in GWR livery although the company itself had ceased to exist some months earlier (its demise predated my arrival by 27hrs 30 minutes).  Ian Hargrave however is definitely in a more senior position .

 

Because of the knowledge I've acquired due to my age plus my past involvement in mainline steam preservation and operation I agree very much with CJL's comments about steam sound.  It has yet to be done properly in 4mm scale although I know one modeller (an RMweb member) who is working hard trying to crack it.  But really to get it right does require some knowledge of how steam engine sound works and what creates and taht in turn means having to 'drive' a steam outline model in a way that isn't necessary with diesels.  Steam sound will never be right unless there is what amounts to an equivalent of a reverser controlling the cut-off.

 

A/S have undoubtedly got what in my experience is probably the best diesel sound I have ever heard on their Class 37.  The 50 will be an interesting challenge but as so much of their sound is controlled. by the electronics - making them a bit less interesting to drive in my experience - it should also be a good subject.   But any diesel sound model needs to take account of teh field diverts cutting in to get it really right.   Sound 'viewpoint' - i.e where it is recorded and where it is heard in relation to the position of the subject - also needs to be carefully considered.

 

Anyway back to the 'Manor' and I'm looking forward to mine with considerable anticipation fully understanding that they won't be here until they arrive.

No matter how good the individual loco sound is, until I can hear the crescendo as a train approaches, the Doppler effect as it passes and the diminuendo as it recedes; and, conversely, not hear the sound of a loco at a station that is only five feet away but in real life is supposed to be twenty miles, then sound isn't for me.

[GWR-fan]

56 minutes ago, reddragon said:

The only reason today to buy DC is because your railway is too difficult to switch to DCC. I had 60+ DC locos on my DC layout and I progressively switched the fleet & tracks to DCC.......................................

 

That may be your opinion but having had and experienced digital sound locomotives in both largescale and "OO",  I can tell you that is not my opinion.  When I purchase a decoder equipped model my first action is to remove the decoder and fit a blanking plate.  I detest the noise that emits from sound equipped models,  not because in many instances it is not realistic but for the reason that I find the sound irritating and when the sound is muted the euphoria of relief that passes over me is like taking a strong sedative.  Also,  I actually prefer a simple analogue model.   Yes,  the wiring may be a little more inconvenient but it is my choice.

[John Isherwood]

11 minutes ago, Jon Harbour said:

 

More and more I suspect.... 

 

Perhaps so - but it'll never match the quality of the sound that I hear in my head when one of my DC locos moves! 😀

 

CJI.

[jonnyuk]

quick question on the stay alive, i've gone back through this thread and some say it only works on DCC, some say you have to change a CV to change the length it runs for. with a non ESU decoder, does the stay alive work and how long is it suppose to run for. this is my second manor and on dc and dcc with a non ESU decoder the wheels stop as soon as you lift it off the track, is this right?

[John Isherwood]

1 minute ago, jonnyuk said:

quick question on the stay alive, i've gone back through this thread and some say it only works on DCC, some say you have to change a CV to change the length it runs for. with a non ESU decoder, does the stay alive work and how long is it suppose to run for. this is my second manor and on dc and dcc with a non ESU decoder the wheels stop as soon as you lift it off the track, is this right?

 

It certainly won't work on DC - I leave the technicalities of DCC to those who know what they're talking about!

 

CJI.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

17 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

No matter how good the individual loco sound is, until I can hear the crescendo as a train approaches, the Doppler effect as it passes and the diminuendo as it recedes; and, conversely, not hear the sound of a loco at a station that is only five feet away but in real life is supposed to be twenty miles, then sound isn't for me.

If you have a layout with a viewing section that can have a stereo soundstage added, then you may play selected excerpts from the likes of the old 'Transacord' recodrings captured by Peter Handford for the 'full on' experience. The synch of motion with sound doesn't have to be 'perfect'; the human brain is trained by experience to match the direct 'instantaneous' visuals with the multipath and delayed sound.

[maico]

13 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I bow to your superior knowledge.

 

Nonetheless, I am old enough to remember that when DCC and its predecessors were first marketed it was almost solely on the pretext that it needed "only two wires" - simplicity was the byword.

 

I continue to be staggered by the proportion of RMweb posts that concern problems encountered with the practical application of the ever-more-complex aspects of DCC.

 

How many appeals have we read, just this week, for assistance with resetting  CVs for this, that and the other?

 

The model railway industry looked at the early PC industry and noted its ability to re-invent itself almost annually - rendering last year's model obsolete; the goose that laid the golden egg!

 

I suppose it's not surprising that the model railway companies thought " We'll have some of that"!

 

..... and so we have DCC - except that "just two wires" it ain't"!

 

CJI.

 

I use 2 wires. It's plug-and-play. The points have optional motors and decoder units fitted. Everything is controlled via a basic DCC controller.

No matter how complex the track sections are or how many locos are running at the same time it just works. I have no idea how to wire up a layout to get such operability in DC!

 

I've fitted basic ESU and Zimo decoders to 30 Ho locos some dating back to 1998 and non-sound. All came with plug boards for decoder fitment.

 

Watching a video on the tube about soldering a decoder into an old Wrenn it doesn't look too hard. I might have a go on my old Wrenn Castle.

[Rugd1022]

13 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Oh - to go back to Nuneaton, Rugby, New Street and Snow Hill, as they were when I (compulsorarily) wore short trousers!

 

Sitting under the 'Girder' (GCR) Bridge at Rugby - opposite the Testing Station - waiting for a Patriot on the freight avoiding line to squash your halfpenny into the size of a penny.

 

Taking a clandestine walk through the Birmingham Blue Pullman whilst it laid-over at Snow Hill, and 57xxs and Pannier tanks bursting out of the tunnels at either end with VERY mixed freights!

 

Nuneaton - Princesses, Duchesses, 10201/2/3, Whistlers roaring through! (Later, electric to steam / diesel loco changes).

 

Rugby again - 'Duke of Gloucester' sneaking through on the avoiding line on a lowly NPCCS - and a pitched battle amongst the spotters as to 'what the bl**dy h*ll is that'?

 

Happy days!

 

John Isherwood.

 

Apologies for continued thread drift but you may well have rubbed shoulders with my dad and his little group of chums - they used to hang out in the same spot by the Birdcage bridge and on occasion would dare each other to run across it (and back!) between trains. As fate would have it, I was on one of the engineering trains that weekend to witness the last sections being removed and cut up on site.

 

Back to Manors, forthwith!

[Super-Sloth]

34 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

No matter how good the individual loco sound is, until I can hear the crescendo as a train approaches, the Doppler effect as it passes and the diminuendo as it recedes; and, conversely, not hear the sound of a loco at a station that is only five feet away but in real life is supposed to be twenty miles, then sound isn't for me.

…but the whirr of an electric motor is just gravy? 🤔

All modelling has limitations. 👍

[John Isherwood]

4 minutes ago, Super-Sloth said:

…but the whirr of an electric motor is just gravy? 🤔

All modelling has limitations. 👍

 

Well-built locos don't whirr - they progress magnificently and soundlessly; (apart from the authentic wheel noise / rail joint clack)!

[Phil Bullock]

50 minutes ago, jonnyuk said:

quick question on the stay alive, i've gone back through this thread and some say it only works on DCC, some say you have to change a CV to change the length it runs for. with a non ESU decoder, does the stay alive work and how long is it suppose to run for. this is my second manor and on dc and dcc with a non ESU decoder the wheels stop as soon as you lift it off the track, is this right?

If the chip supports a stay alive There will be CVS to be changed. Consult the chip suppliers manual to find out which ones they are. 

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Super-Sloth said:

…but the whirr of an electric motor is just gravy? 🤔

All modelling has limitations. 👍

Indeed. My problem with DCC sound is down to the the fact that it sets out to be something that it cannot.

[Andrewrallye]

I am very much a diesel man, but do own a few steam locos based mainly on the Western Region around the sixties. 

Having just received my Torquay Manor, I am well impressed with the model, from the weight to the decoration, the overall look and the sound. I can see that a few have commented with issues and owing to the "hype" of modern social media it does appear to be very much in the minority, bearing in mind an issue at the factory with the tool storage tunnel quite possible resulted in some disassembly to correct. I must say that I am unable to detect any issues with mine where they would have repainted the area into green. I initially thought that the sound is out of sync but but on pressing F1 at the correct moment whilst the loco is actually moving slowly seemed to sort this. I also found that the tender water filler was stuck with paint so again just a one off for me and just required a little extra pressure from the finger nail.

Oh and one handrail was slightly displaced but corrected easily.

Overall, well impressed, just awaiting a couple due soon that I had ordered for some friends.

I hope this is of use.

Cheers.

[Harlequin]

14 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Indeed. My problem with DCC sound is down to the the fact that it sets out to be something that it cannot.

Can you explain what you mean by that, John?

 

[Super-Sloth]

14 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Indeed. My problem with DCC sound is down to the the fact that it sets out to be something that it cannot.

 

Is that really true? 
All modelling is a representation of something else to varying degrees of success.
When you look at a 4mm model you don’t believe for a moment it’s anything less than a model. You know it isn’t the real thing. Adding sound is just an attempt to add another dimension. Why, therefore, apply a different standard of measurement to other senses beyond the visual? 
 

[Cofga]

2 hours ago, jonnyuk said:

quick question on the stay alive, i've gone back through this thread and some say it only works on DCC, some say you have to change a CV to change the length it runs for. with a non ESU decoder, does the stay alive work and how long is it suppose to run for. this is my second manor and on dc and dcc with a non ESU decoder the wheels stop as soon as you lift it off the track, is this right?

Excellent question and one I am not sure of myself. Technically ESU Power Pack stay alives use a 3 wire connection which is also compatible with Lenz and DCC Concepts decoders. Most others use a 2 wire connection. While it is possible to use a 2 wire stay alive with a decoder that expects 3 wires it isn’t recommended and I always thought the reverse was not possible. So this is a technical question that only the DCC tech at Accurascale and ESU can answer. Hopefully Fran will get us an answer—Larry

[jonnyuk]

42 minutes ago, Cofga said:

Excellent question and one I am not sure of myself. Technically ESU Power Pack stay alives use a 3 wire connection which is also compatible with Lenz and DCC Concepts decoders. Most others use a 2 wire connection. While it is possible to use a 2 wire stay alive with a decoder that expects 3 wires it isn’t recommended and I always thought the reverse was not possible. So this is a technical question that only the DCC tech at Accurascale and ESU can answer. Hopefully Fran will get us an answer—Larry

i'd like to think regardless of the decoder, the stay alive will work. If the stay alive requires the ESU decoder designed for this loco then that's a different discussion.....

[geoffers]

Stay-alive works okay on my 7800 and 7812, the first, 7800, with a Zimo MN180 decoder, the second, 7812, with a Bachmann 36-567A (rebadged Zimo). I found the locos needed to be on the track a short while to enable the capacitors to "charge up". Incidentally pressing F1 on both these locos fired up the firebox flicker. 7812 will be refitted with an Accurathrash Manor sound decoder when they are available and arrive. Can always turn the sound off if I don't like it. On another group I read a comment from a chap who felt the chimney profile was incorrect. Looks okay to me.

[jonnyuk]

Just now, geoffers said:

Stay-alive works okay on my 7800 and 7812, the first, 7800, with a Zimo MN180 decoder, the second, 7812, with a Bachmann 36-567A (rebadged Zimo). I found the locos needed to be on the track a short while to enable the capacitors to "charge up". Incidentally pressing F1 on both these locos fired up the firebox flicker. 7812 will be refitted with an Accurathrash Manor sound decoder when they are available and arrive. Can always turn the sound off if I don't like it. On another group I read a comment from a chap who felt the chimney profile was incorrect. Looks okay to me.

out of interest, how long does the stay alive last for?
surely not a second one going back, that would just be unlucky?