Formula 1 2021

[njee20]

Because drivers were "harder" back then, or because safety standards were more lax? Not sure if you're saying that's a good thing or not. I imagine he was somewhat sore after a 51G impact.

[rocor]

24 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Because drivers were "harder" back then, or because safety standards were more lax? Not sure if you're saying that's a good thing or not. I imagine he was somewhat sore after a 51G impact.

 

The point that I was making is that a spare car used to be available on race weekends. If one of the race cars suffered extensive irreparable damage during practice, qualifying or a red flagged race, this would not have resulted in one driver being unable to continue.

 

The banning of spare cars was bought in by the FIA as a cost saving measure.

Edited July 19, 2021 by rocor
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[Reorte]

23 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Because drivers were "harder" back then, or because safety standards were more lax? Not sure if you're saying that's a good thing or not. I imagine he was somewhat sore after a 51G impact.

I can remember some drivers going off for the spare car after a crash that might've looked spectacular, bits flying off everywhere, but I don't think it happened every time they were capable of walking afterwards. Of course it depends on exactly what era we're talking about, and a checkup in the circuit medical facility might well have been more likely than hospital but no further part in the race even when spare cars were available (but go back further still and "you're not dead? Everything still attached? Off you go!" sounds a bit more plausible).

[PaulRhB]

26 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Because drivers were "harder" back then, or because safety standards were more lax? Not sure if you're saying that's a good thing or not. I imagine he was somewhat sore after a 51G impact.

I don’t think they truly understood the danger of especially side impacts causing bleeds. Friend of mine got knocked off his bike in the late 80’s and was released from hospital and died that night at home. Not worth the risk of that and you take scans to look for it these days. 
Not so much lax as unaware of the invisible risks if someone seems ok. 
Pretty sure Max would have jumped in a spare car if they existed and it was allowed. Plenty of Rally and motorbike racers race with injuries that would put most of us off work  

[Pete the Elaner]

5 hours ago, gismorail said:

I’m with the racing incident view on this one Max had pushed the boundaries in previous races this season and Lewis had to take control of the situation and this is what a true racer does. 

 

Most multiple champions in motorsport push some sort of boundary to get an edge.

Nobody would go near Senna or Schumacher because they know they would probably be taken out.

Vettel tried to get away with a sideswiping Hamilton at Canada around 2017/2018 after missing a corner & also famously ignored the "Multi 21" team order.

 

[Jonboy]

56 minutes ago, rocor said:

 

The point that I was making is that a spare car used to be available on race weekends. If one of the race cars suffered extensive irreparable damage during practice, qualifying or a red flagged race, this would not have resulted in one driver being unable to continue.

 

The banning of spare cars was bought in by the FIA as a cost saving measure.

Given the Mercedes chassis swapping the other week makes me wonder how much is truly saved this way…assembly costs only???

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, rocor said:

 

In the "old days", once the race had been red flagged, you would not have seen Max climbing into the back of the ambulance, but sprinting hobbling back to the pits to get into the spare car for the re-start.

In the old days, he'd have been extremely fortunate to be a able to even hobble after a prang at that speed.

 

John

[RJS1977]

1 hour ago, Jonboy said:

Given the Mercedes chassis swapping the other week makes me wonder how much is truly saved this way…assembly costs only???

 

Transport costs, if nothing else.

 

Also if you can only take two chassis to a race weekend, you can only write two off!

 

 

Further to my earlier comment about what would happen if the Lewis/Max clash had occurred in a sprint race, imagine the problems if there was a Spa-style multiple pile up! The main race could be as sparsely competed as the 2005 US Grand Prix!

[pete55]

In a previous posts  it was wondered what would have happened if Max's crash had happened in the sprint race. As far as I know, under current regs, he would have not been allowed to drive on race day due to the severity of the impact.

As for spare cars, they still exist, albeit in component parts in those huge team transporters!

[Reorte]

15 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

In the old days, he'd have been extremely fortunate to be a able to even hobble after a prang at that speed.

Depends when we're talking about I suppose. In to the 80s you'd often see drivers climbing out after some wrecks and be left impressed that the cars protected them enough to do that. That's one of the reasons Imola 94 was such a shock, drivers dying just wasn't something that happened any more.

[friscopete]

The teams used to have a " T  car " as the spare was called.It may also have been a means of abuse setting one car legally and the suddenly needed T car  having every illegal mod known to man ,swapping chassis plates  before scrutineering etc .Lotus used to fill their  big rearwings with water for weighing then swap them over .

[rocor]

17 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

In the old days, he'd have been extremely fortunate to be a able to even hobble after a prang at that speed.

 

John

 

An example of a driver climbing out of a totally wrecked car and running back to the pits to get into the spare after the race is red flagged, would be Derek Warwick, who was driving a Lotus 102 at the 1990 Italian grand Prix.

 

 

Two Grand Prix later, his teammate, Martin Donnelly was not so lucky. He had a horrific crash during practice for the Spanish Grand Prix that came close to killing him, and which caused the end of his F1 career.  

Edited July 20, 2021 by rocor
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[Night Train]

Red Bull confirm updates for Max's new car.

 

[Night Train]

Max does seem to be driving in the aggressive "Senna style" of putting other drivers in the position of "yield or crash".

If you do that and the other driver doesnt yield, you cant blame him if it backfires and takes you out instead.

[friscopete]

50 minutes ago, rocor said:

 

An example of a driver climbing out of a totally wrecked car and running back to the pits to get into the spare after the race is red flagged, would be Derek Warwick, who was driving a Lotus 102 at the 1990 Italian grand Prix.

 

 

Two Grand Prix later, his teammate, Martin Donnelly was not so lucky. He had a horrific crash during practice for the Spanish Grand Prix that came close to killing him, and which caused the end of his F1 career.  

The car was criminally defective and  the tub needed 50kilos of carbon fibre added to the centre section   which you can see on later 102's.It didnt help that the team didnt get a penny of Camel sponsorship even though it was plastered all over the cars and team .

Edited July 20, 2021 by friscopete

[didcot]

The Martin Donnelly crash was awful. I seem to remember he was on the track in his seat with limbs at terrible angles. The tub splitting behind him. It features in Senna film I think. A very lucky chap.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, Night Train said:

Max does seem to be driving in the aggressive "Senna style" of putting other drivers in the position of "yield or crash".

If you do that and the other driver doesnt yield, you cant blame him if it backfires and takes you out instead.

 

I've looked at replays of the collision several times & the following has not really been mentioned:

 

The collision happened well before the apex of the turn, so any claim that "Hamilton missed the apex" is wrong. I don't believe he would have hit it & the collision straightened him up. You only expect a car to be at the very inside of the track at the apex. It is impossible for them to hug the inside white line all around the corner.

They were almost alongside each other as they entered the turn, with Verstappen about 1/2 a wheel ahead at most. Is this considered 'alongside'? Hamilton then backed off, which allowed Verstappen to move a 3/4 car length ahead.

Verstappen was closing the corner. He was definitely not going to close it completely & hit the apex, but he was not going to leave a car's width either. If Hamilton had been on the white line at the apex (which as I mentioned, I don't think he would have been) then there would still have been a collision.

 

Both drivers could have done more to avoid the collision. Unlike driving on the road, avoiding incidents is not their primary aim; it is to finish ahead of their opponents.

I would not be at all surprised if we saw more incidents like this between them this season.

[Dunsignalling]

Fortunately for driver survival, car safety has moved on sufficiently since the carnage we used to see in the sixties and seventies to make "who blinks first" a non-lethal tactic.

 

Whether such an import from less up-market branches of motor sport is good for the image of F1 may be another matter.....

 

John

 

 

[andyman7]

On 19/07/2021 at 16:54, Reorte said:

I can remember some drivers going off for the spare car after a crash that might've looked spectacular, bits flying off everywhere, but I don't think it happened every time they were capable of walking afterwards. Of course it depends on exactly what era we're talking about, and a checkup in the circuit medical facility might well have been more likely than hospital but no further part in the race even when spare cars were available (but go back further still and "you're not dead? Everything still attached? Off you go!" sounds a bit more plausible).

Martin Brundle took the restart in the spare Jordan after his spectacular opening lap crash at Melbourne Park in 1996. He has been unequivocal that these days after a crash of that magnitude he would have been allowed nowhere near the spare car even if it were still to feature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHOyIGToAZc

 

[RedgateModels]

Bit late to the party but been trying to get over surgery, but did no one else notice mv leaving the track during the first lap jousting? Or was it the morphine lol

[LNERandBR]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp0GG4y3is8

 

You will need to click on the link to watch this here. A very good analysis of the Max vs Lewis first lap crash on the F1 YouTube channel by Jolyon Palmer. Comparing it to the overtake that Lewis did on Leclerc and an incident between Sainz and Grosjean at the same corner from a few years ago.

 

I also liked the analysis he does into the mindsets of the pair of them here. There were many points along the first lap that could have ended with one or both of them out of the GP. It just happened that it all came to an end at Copse. It could easily have been both of them out at that point or the crash could have been avoided had both of them been a little less aggressive. 

 

The more I've seen it the more I feel it was a racing incident, both of them could have done more to avoid it. However, they didn't and Lewis was just lucky he could go on to win.

 

Roll on the next race 

Edited July 20, 2021 by LNERandBR

[Sidecar Racer]

8 hours ago, didcot said:

The Martin Donnelly crash was awful. I seem to remember he was on the track in his seat with limbs at terrible angles. The tub splitting behind him. It features in Senna film I think. A very lucky chap.

 

 Seen here .

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

4 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

Bit late to the party but been trying to get over surgery, but did no one else notice mv leaving the track during the first lap jousting? Or was it the morphine lol

 

Yes. It seems to be accepted on the first lap. He wasn't pushed there though; he went wide on the exit at turn 1 so he could carry more speed through the corner. Surely that is wrong whenever it is abused?

I have always felt that track limits need to be strictly enforced. If drivers know they cannot get away with things, they won't try to see how much they can get away with.

I always use the example of just how much is ok to exceed track limits before it becomes a problem? 1cm? 10cm? 1m? 10m over the white line? The limits of the track are well defined so the easiest way is to penalise anyone over them. Time penalties are horrible, especially when they need to be added on to the end of a race. Being forced to take a 'penalty chicane' or similar within 2 laps is much better.

 

The long stewards investigation times don't do the sport much good either. It was well after the restart that Hamilton knew he had a 10 second penalty. The race was stopped for about 30 minutes. Was this really not enough time for them to make a decision? They had plenty of time to view various replays & discuss it.

The barrier repair & clearing the track is the race director's business & he does not get involved with stewards decisions apart from flagging some up.

We see notifications for 'jump start under investigation' after 5-6 laps. Why do they need to wait for 5-6 laps before flagging this up? This should be detected automatically & therefore immediately. I can understand the investigation itself being delayed until things settle a little, but the teams should know their driver is under investigation well before the end of the first lap.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, LNERandBR said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp0GG4y3is8

 

You will need to click on the link to watch this here. A very good analysis of the Max vs Lewis first lap crash on the F1 YouTube channel by Jolyon Palmer. Comparing it to the overtake that Lewis did on Leclerc and an incident between Sainz and Grosjean at the same corner from a few years ago.

 

I also liked the analysis he does into the mindsets of the pair of them here. There were many points along the first lap that could have ended with one or both of them out of the GP. It just happened that it all came to an end at Copse. It could easily have been both of them out at that point or the crash could have been avoided had both of them been a little less aggressive. 

 

The more I've seen it the more I feel it was a racing incident, both of them could have done more to avoid it. However, they didn't and Lewis was just lucky he could go on to win.

 

Roll on the next race 

A more filled out version of what Karun said and I tend to agree with those two. Lewis had to push and Max relied on his usual elbows and was caught out when Lewis had enough of yielding. 
 

I think the penalty was fair enough in the circumstances, acknowledging it without being ridiculously harsh, as Max was out and Lewis could continue so both got ‘punished’ by the incident but it didn’t override that luck factor either. It also gave Charles a chance and made that type of charge that Lewis is capable of in a similar vein to Mansell’s charges. Never give up  

[PaulRhB]

Maybe Max will treat Lewis with a little more respect / caution from now on? . . . or it might be bare knuckles . . .