Formula 1 2021

[Dunsignalling]

16 minutes ago, rocor said:

 

This is the most contentious of the track limit rules. A driver being pushed wide while attempting a pass around the outside on a corner. Is the driver being overtaken just following their "racing line"?, or are they ensuring that the driver overtaking will need to exceed track limits in order to avoid a collision?.

The outside overtake is a direct consequence of the way circuits are being altered. The only reason drivers started trying them is because the hard run off areas beyond track limits remove the risk of getting beached in gravel if it goes wrong. 

 

They are taking a calculated risk that they stand to gain more than they stand to lose. If it doesn't come off, irrespective of cause, I see no reason for them to be treated generously.

 

John

 

 

[Andrew P]

HERE WE GO, and we've only had 3 Races.

 

REVEALED: Valtteri Bottas could face the axe BEFORE the end of the season as Mercedes lose faith in Finn - with young Brit George Russell favourite to become Lewis Hamilton's new team-mate.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-9538633/Mercedes-axe-Valtteri-Bottas-end-season-George-Russell-line-repalce-him.html?fbclid=IwAR3Q7St1oo7uv92m7TxjfJXpyjvMyNTrQPmlC5QbSqCdFmQADOq3XTPMgS0

[PaulRhB]

6 minutes ago, Andrew P said:

HERE WE GO, and we've only had 3 Races.

 

REVEALED: Valtteri Bottas could face the axe BEFORE the end of the season as Mercedes lose faith in Finn - with young Brit George Russell favourite to become Lewis Hamilton's new team-mate.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-9538633/Mercedes-axe-Valtteri-Bottas-end-season-George-Russell-line-repalce-him.html?fbclid=IwAR3Q7St1oo7uv92m7TxjfJXpyjvMyNTrQPmlC5QbSqCdFmQADOq3XTPMgS0

I reckon that’s just fishing for a reaction from Toto. Vague source and just a comment about Valterri “confidence looks shot” 

Lazy sensationalism. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by PaulRhB

[Zomboid]

4 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Lazy sensationalism

From the Daily Mail, of all places... 

 

I mean it's possible, but 2 weeks ago Bottas had a much worse weekend and Russell had just wiped him out and been threatened with the Renault Clio cup as a result.

[Andrew P]

25 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

I reckon that’s just fishing for a reaction from Toto. Vague source and just a comment about Valterri “confidence looks shot” 

Lazy sensationalism. 

 

18 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

From the Daily Mail, of all places... 

 

I mean it's possible, but 2 weeks ago Bottas had a much worse weekend and Russell had just wiped him out and been threatened with the Renault Clio cup as a result.

Having said all that, it did strike me, and Mr Coultard as strange that Toto should come on the Radio in the middle of a Race, was he looking for a reaction?

[woodenhead]

Lewis needs a wingman this season, Perez is showing himself to be a solid wingman to Verstappen, but would it be Mercedes style to sack a driver?  Bottas isn't that bad and he is no different really to all the previous seasons, he's never really shone in the best car on the grid.

 

I don't think Toto is a Mateschitz and will simply use a another driver, not that he really can just do that.  He would need to buy out from Williams who are probably not going to want to lose their top driver with points positions actually being a possibility this season.

[Oldddudders]

So, you are a reporter who knows or meets someone who works for the Merc F1 team, but probably isn't called Toto. You ask him if he thinks Bottas is up to the job, and he says no. You ask him if he thinks Russell would be a good replacement, and he says yes. You now have a 'story'.

[didcot]

7 hours ago, Andrew P said:

Having said all that, it did strike me, and Mr Coultard as strange that Toto should come on the Radio in the middle of a Race, was he looking for a reaction

I believe Toto did the same in the previous race. It was mentioned in the Sky commentary. 

It seems to me that when Bottas is ahead he does well, but a soon as he is passed he goes backwards. That may be a tyre thing, but it does happen alot. The move Hamilton put on him was pretty good, but it must be demoralising. 

[Andrew P]

4 minutes ago, didcot said:

I believe Toto did the same in the previous race. It was mentioned in the Sky commentary. 

It seems to me that when Bottas is ahead he does well, but a soon as he is passed he goes backwards. That may be a tyre thing, but it does happen alot. The move Hamilton put on him was pretty good, but it must be demoralising. 

It was reminiscent of Russells move last year when he was in the Merc, he just went past him as though he was a back marker. 

[PaulRhB]

Yes Valterri asked Toto to pump him up, it’s been mentioned at the previous race too. 

[Andrew P]

I do wonder if Toto his regretting his early call on re signing Bottas for this year, remember it was done mid last season, had he waited, and now looking back with hindsight seen what George could do with a Car he struggled to get in to, and shoes the wrong size, it was more than impressive.

Just missed Pole, and took the lead in the first corner and then just left everyone, until Mercs cock ups.

[didcot]

I guess Toto doesn't want a similar situation as 2016 when both protagonists were playing all sorts on games on and off the track. Must be a nightmare to manage. Nikko has admitted to playing mind games in order to undermine Lewis.

I don't think George would play the wingman. But my money was on him being in the no.2 seat this year. Lewis claims to like the challenge from his rivals, but potentially not from his team mate.

 

[Pete the Elaner]

13 minutes ago, didcot said:

I guess Toto doesn't want a similar situation as 2016 when both protagonists were playing all sorts on games on and off the track. Must be a nightmare to manage. Nikko has admitted to playing mind games in order to undermine Lewis.

I don't think George would play the wingman. But my money was on him being in the no.2 seat this year. Lewis claims to like the challenge from his rivals, but potentially not from his team mate.

 

 

Not just Mercedes either.

We've seen other team-mates take each other out:

Ricciardo & Verstappen

Vettel & Leclerc

Vettel & Webber

Senna & Prost

 

Did Mansell & Piquet take each other out?

Hamilton & Alonso may not have done it on the track but they did try to undermine each other within the team including sabotaging each other's qualifying. Hamilton finished that season 1 point behind Raikkonen, so did their squabbling cost him the title?

 

Bottas has pushed Hamilton on occasions but there appears to be good feeling between the 2 of them.

 

It is easy to look back at a huge winning margin at the end of a season & say they could have afforded some team-mate squabbling but you never know how the car development will go. If it goes down to the last race, we could be saying Bottas performed a great support role this year.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Pete the Elaner
Added an extra rivalry which I earlier forgot

[Andrew P]

4 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Not just Mercedes either.

We've seen other team-mates take each other out:

Ricciaro & Verstappen

Vettel & Leclerc

Senna & Prost

 

Did Mansell & Piquet take each other out?

Hamilton & Alonso may not have done it on the track but they did try to undermine each other within the team including sabotaging each other's qualifying. Hamilton finished that season 1 point behind Raikkonen, so did their squabbling cost him the title?

 

Bottas has pushed Hamilton on occasions but there appears to be good feeling between the 2 of them.

 

It is easy to look back at a huge winning margin at the end of a season & say they could have afforded some team-mate squabbling but you never know how the car development will go. If it goes down to the last race, we could be saying Bottas performed a great support role this year.

And don't forget the classic, Vettel / Webber.

[Pete the Elaner]

Just now, Andrew P said:

And don't forget the classic, Vettel / Webber.

 

I think I added that while you were replying!

[Bulleidboy100]

I'm not sure Toto would want his two drivers fighting it out during a race - as said earlier George Russell will not want to be a wingman. As a number two I don't think VB is that bad. You have to remember that both LH and Max are a cut above the rest - ask Lewis or Max to throw in a half a dozen laps at qualifying speed - and it's done - not sure anyone else could do that. Perez is still getting the feel of the car - when (?) he becomes a regular front runner I'm not sure Max will be happy with him climbing up his exhaust pipes.

All these stories come from annonymous sources - or from Dutch drivers we have never heard of. 

It was good race.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Bulleidboy100

[didcot]

I don't think Mansell and Piquet took each other out. But definitely mind games from Piquet. Just caught the end of a Murray Walker interview and he said the same thing. 

[EddieB]

3 hours ago, Andrew P said:

And don't forget the classic, Vettel / Webber.

Not to mention Button/Perez, Ocon/Perez...

 

Seems like both Max and Sergio have matured in their own ways, but will there be any unravelling this season?

[kipford]

No Mansell and Piquet never took each other out. The infamous incident Piquet was in involved was the punch up at Hockenheim in 1982 with Elisio Salazar. Salazar driving the ATS took Piquet out while he was being lapped. Piquet was a bit pique! That race was also infamous for the crash in practice that ended Didier Pironi's career when he hit the back of Prost's slow moving Renault unsighted in very wet conditions. 

[Andrew P]

Romain Grosjean to make fairy-tale return to F1 with special one-off Mercedes test.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-grosjean-to-make-fairy-tale-return-to-f1-with-special-one-off.4iaABiRi5Sq6XxTCch9llk.html?fbclid=IwAR0wrICX5HSfrdsltAgi2WDqmtJqPIFfawJXPS6DFDpZbLbdZta4sDAFeJ8

[Oldddudders]

10 hours ago, kipford said:

 That race was also infamous for the crash in practice that ended Didier Pironi's career when he hit the back of Prost's slow moving Renault unsighted in very wet conditions. 

Those 'unavoidable' tail-enders are terrifying. Riccardo Paletti died from the same cause - unsighted and unaware of stalled and crashed cars ahead at the start - in Montreal 1982. Curiously, it was Pironi who had stalled on that occasion. We saw something similar, without serious injury, last year, too, I think, on a re-start.

 

Another one I recall, but sports cars, not F1, was Ignatio Giunti in a Ferrari 512, who died when leading the race and flat out on the pit straight in Buenos Aires 1971 when he ran into the back of the Matra that J-P Beltoise was pushing - yes, pushing - having run out of fuel. 

[EddieB]

On 03/05/2021 at 16:34, Dunsignalling said:

The outside overtake is a direct consequence of the way circuits are being altered. The only reason drivers started trying them is because the hard run off areas beyond track limits remove the risk of getting beached in gravel if it goes wrong. 

 

They are taking a calculated risk that they stand to gain more than they stand to lose. If it doesn't come off, irrespective of cause, I see no reason for them to be treated generously.

 

John

 

 

I'm not sure that is a good thing or a bad thing...

 

Of course we all want to see clean, fair overtaking.  Last Sunday we saw an excellent example of an outside overtake (Lewis on Valtteri) and another of an inside cut-back (Ricciardo on Gasly - see https://www.facebook.com/Formula1/videos/144356097671011) - amply demonstrating that there are two overtaking possibilities on corners.  However both moves could easily have been blocked and a driver attempting an overtake relies heavily on being given fair room by the driver being passed.

 

If the other driver isn't co-operative, then should it be right that the overtaking driver ends up beached in a gravel trap - out of the race plus a safety car to neutralise any previous advantages through the field?    As such the risks for overtaking would far outweigh the potential gain - and lead to more processional racing.  Surely just having to back off/yield the place gained or face a time penalty is sufficient should a driver need to use the run-offs?

 

Again, where the pass isn't executed cleanly, there comes the judgement call as to whether the other driver goes too far in defending the position  (think of Lewis tangling with Alex Albon).  Yes there are rules (e.g. alongside, car width, racing line), but I don't think that is something the stewards can always get right - even the experienced former drivers among them. 

 

Where possible drivers should be allowed to race, and the circuits designed to facilitate opportunities to overtake - and we must all accept there will be "racing incidents" along the way.  Just be thankful that car and circuit safety is continuing to improve.

[Steadfast]

Truck racing has bollards at areas where track limits may be breached. Both on the apex, and outside of corners, as F1 is having trouble with. See about 30 seconds in for an example

 

 

Make them tall enough to be seen from the cockpit of an F1 car (so the "I couldn't see the white line from the cockpit" aspect is done away with) and if you hit the bollard, lap deleted, 5 second penalty or whatever. No room for ambiguity, if the bollard moves, you hit it.

Make them from a material light enough that it doesn't damage a single seater.

 

Jo

[37114]

25 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

Truck racing has bollards at areas where track limits may be breached. Both on the apex, and outside of corners, as F1 is having trouble with. See about 30 seconds in for an example

 

 

Make them tall enough to be seen from the cockpit of an F1 car (so the "I couldn't see the white line from the cockpit" aspect is done away with) and if you hit the bollard, lap deleted, 5 second penalty or whatever. No room for ambiguity, if the bollard moves, you hit it.

Make them from a material light enough that it doesn't damage a single seater.

 

Jo

Was it me or did the trophy look like a pasty mounted on a wooden plinth??? I seem to recall a certain Sir Lewis being unimpressed with a trophy at the British Grand prix some years ago, I wonder what he would have made of that...

[Steadfast]

1 hour ago, 37114 said:

pasty mounted on a wooden plinth

And there was me thinking that trophy was being saved for the Cornish grand Prix!

 

Jo