MyRule1 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 39 minutes ago, Edwardian said: I should think that any 4 or 6-wheelers surviving to LNER days would be painted 'coach brown', not varnished wood? Bearing in mind these are generic coaches, if you are modelling the GER area in the LNER period I would guess that painted brown coaches would be more suited. It's for that reason, and the Full Brake, that I am pre-ordering from Hattons. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sem34090 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 I do wish that people would stop referring to the Hornby product as 'generic', 'freelance' or 'prototype literate'. These terms are very much applicable to the forthcoming Hattons product which has been developed by looking at a wide range of prototypes, identifying common features and with the aid of this forum the result is a generic coach; not accurate for any company but drawing from many so it will look about right for most. Hornby have taken distinctive LBSCR Stroudley coaches and changed a minute number of details so that they can badge them as 'generic' when, in reality, they are nothing of the sort. People are naturally going to draw comparisons between these and Stroudley stock because it is patently obvious that roughly 95% of these coaches' anatomy is derived from Stroudley stock. The six-wheelers may be more generic, I wouldn't know as I haven't looked into LBSCR stock for a long time now, but they still draw heavily from the LBSCR. 4 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Model Railway Guy Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Hi there, just a clarify a couple of things quickly. 1 hour ago, micklner said: Re the "LNER" version reviewed in the video above . The poster has some incorrect comments. They should normally be Plain Teak Brown. I don’t think I ever said the teak finish was correct, just that I personally liked the way Hornby had done teak on previous coaches and that was why I opted for this version. 1 hour ago, micklner said: LNER did line to suits the panel shapes, not square as suggested. The LNER and Numbers are missing colours in their make up. The Brake end is truly awful design not helped by the lining out , I have never seen a ducket which is also joined to the rear windows ? Regarding the lining, I wasn’t referring to LNER practice of following the panels. Instead I was commenting on how Hornby have made a deliberate choice to go for square lining above and below the windows - apologies if that wasn’t clear in the video. Thanks for pointing out the missing colours in the numbers and lettering though. Not being an expert I wouldn’t have noticed that myself but then I suppose that’s why I’m more the target audience for these types of coaches. I agree the lining on brake coach isn’t ideal but then that's part of the compromise on these coaches and personally I’ve found that unless you’re less than a foot away and staring at it, it’s not really noticeable. That of course is subjective though which is why I try to provide lots of close ups in the videos to help people decide for themselves. 1 hour ago, micklner said: I never watched anymore of the video, after the first couple of minutes. 53 minutes ago, Edwardian said: I seldom find that sort of thing useful, so only really bother if it's Jenny Kirk! Thanks for the vote of confidence chaps. 5 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenGiraffe22 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 31 minutes ago, sem34090 said: I do wish that people would stop referring to the Hornby product as 'generic', 'freelance' or 'prototype literate'. These terms are very much applicable to the forthcoming Hattons product which has been developed by looking at a wide range of prototypes, identifying common features and with the aid of this forum the result is a generic coach; not accurate for any company but drawing from many so it will look about right for most. Hornby have taken distinctive LBSCR Stroudley coaches and changed a minute number of details so that they can badge them as 'generic' when, in reality, they are nothing of the sort. I like to refer to them as Hornby Stroudley Generics :p 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 17, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Edwardian said: As to applying a livery in spite, as it were, the design of the coach, for me this 'denial by lining' only works from several feet away! "Denial by lining" - I like it; though I think of it as "trial by panelling". It is just "applying a livery in spite" without need for further qualification! 1 hour ago, Edwardian said: Yes, I agree, the Hattons are not a bad overall match to NER in terms of general appearance. - 32' 6-wheel coaches, as Hattons - Generally similar panel style - IIRC the same 6-wheel w/b - Flat ends - Flat-topped duckets Oh dear. I think I've been rumbled... 1 hour ago, Edwardian said: I seldom find that sort of thing useful, so only really bother if it's Jenny Kirk! Should she be worried? 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Edwardian Posted January 17, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2021 30 minutes ago, sem34090 said: I do wish that people would stop referring to the Hornby product as 'generic', 'freelance' or 'prototype literate'. These terms are very much applicable to the forthcoming Hattons product which has been developed by looking at a wide range of prototypes, identifying common features and with the aid of this forum the result is a generic coach; not accurate for any company but drawing from many so it will look about right for most. Yes, though I think the point is that Hornby's are intended to be generic. I think that should be uncontroversial? Your point, I think, is that they do not succeed as generic coaches because they have not been developed far enough from their obviously Brighton origins? Or, as the Hon. Member for Worthing has just put it, 'Hornby Stroudley Generics' That depends, to some extent, on what one means by the term 'generic', but if you take the view that it means something like 'not modelling an actual prototype or following too closely the style of any particular railway company, but applying a knowledge of how should coaches appeared and were constructed and taking some of the most common or typical features and synthesising them to form a logical, prototypical and hence believable freelance coach', then I think you are describing Hattons' take on this more than Hornby's. 30 minutes ago, sem34090 said: Hornby have taken distinctive LBSCR Stroudley coaches and changed a minute number of details so that they can badge them as 'generic' when, in reality, they are nothing of the sort. People are naturally going to draw comparisons between these and Stroudley stock because it is patently obvious that roughly 95% of these coaches' anatomy is derived from Stroudley stock. The six-wheelers may be more generic, I wouldn't know as I haven't looked into LBSCR stock for a long time now, but they still draw heavily from the LBSCR. Yes, one could argue that Hornby have made coaches that are just too close to Stroudleys to be generic and just to far from them to be of much use as Stroudleys. I think it does illustrate quite how much research, feedback, thought and time is necessary if one wants to evolve a truly generic range of credible freelance coach designs. Other views are available and for many, the coaches that are the proper subject of this thread will do. 4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: "Denial by lining" - I like it; though I think of it as "trial by panelling". It is just "applying a livery in spite" without need for further qualification! For you are a judge (and a good judge too) 4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Oh dear. I think I've been rumbled... NER practice of the 1890s seems to have avoided too distinctive an appearance, so it's fairly close to the generic ideal! 4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Should she be worried? By having her work recognised? I shouldn't think so, no. 2 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Butler Henderson said: A LBSCR design; the only vehicles which are at all appropriate in that respect in the current offerings are the SR ones, Thanks for that, I have now realised that the ends of LNER Stock would have also been painted Black, that would make the Hornby rendition look much better, as the eye is then not drawn to the lining out . 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 20 hours ago, eldomtom2 said: The Bachmann Red Coaches are based on Tennmille Gauge 1 kits purchased for the show. I can make no comment as to the accuracy of Tennmille's kits, the TV crew's construction thereof, Nitrogen Studios' CGI recreation thereof, or Bachmann's 1/76 replica thereof, but provide these pictures for reference. So this is a startling example of a model of a prototype based on a model.... The prototype here being a digital model... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 17, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, Ravenser said: So this is a startling example of a model of a prototype based on a model.... The prototype here being a digital model... No, the digital models are based on physical models. The line of descent is: Stroudley -> tenmille -> HiT (or whoever it was at the time) -> Bachmann. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: No, the digital models are based on physical models. The line of descent is: Stroudley -> tenmille -> HiT (or whoever it was at the time) -> Bachmann. I was tending to assume the tenmille kits were generic. How accurate are they?? It does seem to me that pre-Grouping LBSCR is now very attainable. We have Stroudley/Billinton coaches available RTR, a variety of locos including tank engines in LBSC livery RTR and the main omission is a brake van. Wagon kits are I think available A busy steam suburban operation and a country branch line would both seem quite possible 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 And in the same vein - I'm not in the market for a 1930s LNER branch line train. But if I was - both Hattons and Hornby have much to offer. Hattons thoughtfully offer a 4 pack of 6 wheelers, but that might be too much . The Stroudley end duckets are a deal breaker for me, but how satisfactory a Hattons Brake 3rd + composite + Hornby all 3rd would be I'm not sure. The main issue would be lined teak v plain brown - I suspect some significant weathering to tone down the teak and the lining would be in order. But these should sell : most people modelling a pre-war LNER branch can use them, and arguably they are a more typical LNER Southern Area branch train than we've seen. They won't pass as GN, but you need a pretty detailed knowledge of carriage history to know for yourself they aren't actual ex GC/GE/NE vehicles. Mixing body designs would not merely be possible at that period - it would be more authentic. By the 1930s , branch trains of 6 wheelers would not usually have been made up of the same type of stock from the same company. From that point of view both Hornby and Hattons can pick up some sales - it's not "one or the other" I think the Southern versions may well sell quite nicely too While the panelling is quite wrong for the LNW, who were early users of bogie stock, I'm curious whether any of these coaches could pass for NLR . And did ex NLR coaches receive LNW livery after the takeover in 1911??? I'm still contemplating a 6 wheel full brake from Hattons for BR parcels work... 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Butler Henderson said: A LBSCR design; the only vehicles which are at all appropriate in that respect in the current offerings are the SR ones, I thought they had all gone by 1924 apart from two sets that were rebuilt for use on the Isle Of Wight? So not strictly correct for the SR unless it's IoW. Currently going by the Roxey website until the books turn up. https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/31/4mm-scale-lbscr-stroudley-coaches/ Jason 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
friscopete Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 I'll wait until Rails of Sheffield bring out their own generic coaches. 2 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Ravenser said: I was tending to assume the tenmille kits were generic. How accurate are they?? It does seem to me that pre-Grouping LBSCR is now very attainable. We have Stroudley/Billinton coaches available RTR, a variety of locos including tank engines in LBSC livery RTR and the main omission is a brake van. Wagon kits are I think available A busy steam suburban operation and a country branch line would both seem quite possible Funnily enough they've had a reasonably accurate LBSC brake van since about 1980 with nothing to go with it since the E2 went. Still available. https://www.hattons.co.uk/250918/hornby_r6802_10_ton_brake_van_55891_in_southern_railway_brown/stockdetail.aspx Not 100% accurate and a bit dated, but would surely do for anyone using these coaches. Jason Edited January 17, 2021 by Steamport Southport 6 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: I thought they had all gone by 1924 apart from two sets that were rebuilt for use on the Isle Of Wight? So not strictly correct for the SR unless it's IoW Thanks - yes it seems so looking at this info on LBSC coaches. So a pair of brake vehicles from Hattons instead. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 17, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2021 6 hours ago, sem34090 said: I do wish that people would stop referring to the Hornby product as 'generic', That's funny, I could have sworn, backed up by Andy Y's post a couple of pages back, that Mr Kohler described them as such. Perhaps he doesn't know what he is selling. 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Edwardian Posted January 17, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2021 17 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said: Thanks - yes it seems so looking at this info on LBSC coaches. So a pair of brake vehicles from Hattons instead. Many of the Billinton 4-wheelers (that the Hattons are such a good match for) went to IoW in 1925. When Mr Southport's books arrive, he can tell you which! But it means the Hattons 4-wheelers in SR green would make good pairings for the several IoW Terriers we now have RTR. 4 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathan70000 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Unfortunately, the LBSC brakevan that Hornby have done only entered service in around 1921, I think, so only really useful if you're modelling the very end of the pre-grouping period. The idea of generic brakevans probably isn't a bad one- there were several companies that used very similar designs. I think the SECR and the Midland definitely had identical brakevans and there was a WD/ROD design that was used by a number of companies. Perhaps a generic underframe with two body styles would give you brakevans for the GN, LNWR, SECR, LBSCR and the Midland? Really, all those pre-grouping PO wagons Hornby churn out are "generic" so brakevans would be a logical extension. SECR modellers in particular have all the ingredients (assuming they're willing to do a bit of renumbering) to do an RTR layout, except the brakevan. Unfortunately if an accurate SECR brakevan were produced, it would inevitably be the Dancehall type, which, like Hornby's old LBSC van, is only suitable for post-1920 layouts. A generic, "period-literate" brakevan would look more accurate with pre-WW1 livery locomotives. 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Edwardian Posted January 17, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2021 29 minutes ago, nathan70000 said: Hornby churn out are "generic" so brakevans Well, let's hope a retailer commissions these. Then Hornby will. 4 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 17, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Edwardian said: Well, let's hope a retailer commissions these. Then Hornby will. How many times do you reckon one could get away with announcing a project before Hornby cottoned on that one was leading them by the nose? 3 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Edwardian Posted January 17, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2021 12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: How many times do you reckon one could get away with announcing a project before Hornby cottoned on that one was leading them by the nose? I don't know, but it would be fun finding out. Announced: Ex-LNWR 1850s 4-wheel coaches for the Brampton Railway circa 1889 and Millwall Extension Railway Starbucks tramcars. 4 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 17, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2021 There's a rumour just in of several Hornby employees trying to sneak into a locked-down Starbucks in Ramsgate armed with measuring tapes and cameras... 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted January 17, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2021 There is the LSWR road van coming from Kernow shortly. A couple ended up at the Longmoor Military Railway. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Nile Posted January 18, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 18, 2021 And beaten to market by the Hornby LSWR brake van, hmmm. Although they still haven't got the colour quite right. 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 18, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2021 19 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: Funnily enough they've had a reasonably accurate LBSC brake van since about 1980 with nothing to go with it since the E2 went. Still available. https://www.hattons.co.uk/250918/hornby_r6802_10_ton_brake_van_55891_in_southern_railway_brown/stockdetail.aspx Not 100% accurate and a bit dated, but would surely do for anyone using these coaches. Jason And it's in the 2021 catalogue (in SR livery) so allegedly still available. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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