Using the easy-assembly Finetrax pointwork kits in 00 and EM (and in P4 from the S4 Society)

[n9]

2 hours ago, Dominion said:

I meant close to the centre of the diamond within that open space, not centre of the space between the timbers. That sounds like it would suit your plan ?

 

Ah, so you meant in this area?

 

 

Think I might struggle with the soldering there, unless much thinner tips are available. Still, it's more food for thought. Thank you.

 

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Yes, only ever called strand/diameter wire without the point, laziness?!!

I don't know about a single strand, but I've used 3 or 4 strands when in a really tight corner.

DCC loco wire is even thinner I think?

 

Mike.

 

Not your fault at all. For a moment, my ignorance left me wondering if there was such a thing as a 7/0.02. But it is interesting that you've got away with only 3 or 4 strands.

[Enterprisingwestern]

4 minutes ago, n9 said:

 

Ah, so you meant in this area?

 

 

Think I might struggle with the soldering there, unless much thinner tips are available. Still, it's more food for thought. Thank you.

 

 

Not your fault at all. For a moment, my ignorance left me wondering if there was such a thing as a 7/0.02. But it is interesting that you've got away with only 3 or 4 strands.

 

Bear in mind if you use 3 or 4 strands then solder will run up it by capillary attraction, so thickening it by default!

 

Mike.

[Gilbert]

On 31/08/2024 at 10:22, Captain Kernow said:

Chris - just tested some recent C&L Code 75 bullhead rail into a recent purchase British Finetrax point base - the rail goes in very easily.

 

That's great. Thanks 

[Siberian Snooper]

46 minutes ago, The Evil Bus Driver said:

Hmm. I might have to go and raid the Scalefour stand at either Not Warley or GETS. 

 

Scaleforum is in a couple of weeks time, not too far from Rugby!

[Wayne Kinney]

I would recommend wiring as per the instructions:

 

The gaps in the base are there for a reason, to provide clearence for soldering connections. Use them 😀

Edited September 4 by Wayne Kinney

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 hours ago, Wayne Kinney said:

I would recommend wiring as per the instructions:

 

 

Instructions??????!!!!!!

Wash your mouth out!

 

Mike.

[Gilbert]

1 minute ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Instructions??????!!!!!!

Wash your mouth out!

 

Mike.

There's always one....

Chris

[Enterprisingwestern]

6 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

There's always one....

Chris

 

More than one I can assure you!

 

Mike.

[Donw]

Good diagram Wayne.

 

Don

[BWsTrains]

In my book there are five types of instructions:

 

• A string of pics (no words) designed to show the route to build some 3D item (and which often fail in their purpose). World's biggest Furniture Co anyone?
   
• Wagon / Coach Kit instructions which unless you've done this before defy understanding, + (Var 2- diagram remains unchanged after an update to kit so doesn't make sense). Well known OO Kit Cos
   
• Exploded Loco chassis kit diagrams with so many components and steps illustrated plus highly detailed text that despite their excellence and undoubted accuracy defy understanding for beginners who need them most. Typically they ignore a crucial 1st step, (1 - take two Panadol and extended rest in a darkened room)
   
• Those with only a tiny CD or hyperlink supplied - I mean, tell me who's got a CD drive on a PC these days and anyway you're trying to set up / restore so the PC's not going properly - YET!
   
• British Finescale - excellent detail and step by step diagrams of the highest order. Given this, it seems a tad churlish to ignore Wayne's hard work putting them together.

 

 

 

[n9]

1 hour ago, BWsTrains said:

• British Finescale - excellent detail and step by step diagrams of the highest order. Given this, it seems a tad churlish to ignore Wayne's hard work putting them together.

Actually, I see it as a compliment to the quality of Mr Kinney's kits.

 

While I can't speak for the others who have spent time making the wiring less conspicuous (for example by choosing to solder crossing Vs, wing rails and closure rails, or by running wires under the webbing,) I can say what my motivations are: the kits look beautiful when built, at least to my eye, and I'd prefer not to spoil the aesthetic with a lot of wires if I possibly can. I might not achieve it, but I'm certainly going to try.

 

I agree that the instructions are pretty good though.

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Don, Given the dates when Len Newman chairs became available were long before Peco produced any code 75 bullhead. I think you must be referring to the original Peco individuallay bull head that was quite a bit larger.

I stand to be corrected but in my memory the Individualay rail was code 95.

[hayfield]

Like all things once you grab the theory, wiring turnouts, slips and diamonds is straight forward, 3 ways and diamonds require a bit of thought.

 

I would agree Wayne has produced some excellent instructions. But then given the thought which has gone into the kits and the care taken in producing them its just quality all the way through.

 

As for the Keyser style, they were in my opinion easier to follow than Wills (original) kits. The problem is getting the balance correct, Airfix kits may be a good example, but then the company can afford graphic artists

 

C&L in the past had on line some excellent wiring diagrams (sadly not on latest website) Especially for things like 3 ways and I think outside slips. 

[bradfordbuffer]

11 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

In my book there are five types of instructions:

 

• A string of pics (no words) designed to show the route to build some 3D item (and which often fail in their purpose). World's biggest Furniture Co anyone?
   
• Wagon / Coach Kit instructions which unless you've done this before defy understanding, + (Var 2- diagram remains unchanged after an update to kit so doesn't make sense). Well known OO Kit Cos
   
• Exploded Loco chassis kit diagrams with so many components and steps illustrated plus highly detailed text that despite their excellence and undoubted accuracy defy understanding for beginners who need them most. Typically they ignore a crucial 1st step, (1 - take two Panadol and extended rest in a darkened room)
   
• Those with only a tiny CD or hyperlink supplied - I mean, tell me who's got a CD drive on a PC these days and anyway you're trying to set up / restore so the PC's not going properly - YET!
   
• British Finescale - excellent detail and step by step diagrams of the highest order. Given this, it seems a tad churlish to ignore Wayne's hard work putting them together.

 

 

 

BFS instructions are as stated exceptionally understandable 

 

But I do understand why so many get it wrong as far to close to the subject matter! 

 

Follow the instructions 

[Enterprisingwestern]

Apologies to Wayne for the thread snatch!

 

 

On the subject of link wires, the EMGS turnouts use .030" wire.

 

Mike.

[Damo666]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

Apologies to Wayne for the thread snatch!

 

 

On the subject of link wires, the EMGS turnouts use .030" wire.

 

Mike.

Forgive me if I’m wrong here, as this isn’t my area of expertise but....

 

7/0.2 is 7 number wire strands of 0.2mm diameter (Metric).

Cross-sectional area is 0.0314 mm2.

or a total cross-sectional area of all 7 strands of 0.22 mm2

 

.030” wire is imperial = 0.762mm.

Cross-sectional area is 0.456 mm2

 

Just making sure we are comparing apples with apples.

 

Edited September 5 by Damo666

[Dominion]

20 hours ago, n9 said:

 

Ah, so you meant in this area?

 

 

Think I might struggle with the soldering there, unless much thinner tips are available. Still, it's more food for thought. Thank you.

 

 

Not your fault at all. For a moment, my ignorance left me wondering if there was such a thing as a 7/0.02. But it is interesting that you've got away with only 3 or 4 strands.

I actually meant 3 timbers to the left and right of there, exactly where Wayne’s diagrams indicate. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 hours ago, Damo666 said:

Just making sure we are comparing apples with apples.

 

I'd be happier we are talking about wire and cable in the same voice!!

 

Mike.

[roythebus1]

How about using phosper bronze wire? that way you'll have the flexibility to allow the blades to move back and forth. That movement is really needed or you may well have the outer ends of the blades working loose.

 

[n9]

So at the considerable risk of cementing my reputation as a heretic, I decided to continue to ignore the wiring instructions in The Book of Wayne... 🙂

 

Here's a pic of where I've got to. It has 4 90-degree 1x0.2mm brass strips connecting at each end: point, splice, and wing rails, and the two middle switch blades. To the left, for comparison, I've included in order left-to-right: a piece of wire from a Peco Code 55 turnout, some 7/0.15, and some 7/0.2. (The latter two are actually AWG, but from posts by WIMorrison, I'm pretty certain those are the equivalent sizes.) Oh, and there's a bit of brass strip along the top.

 

 

The result? It's fine as far as I can tell. Everything remains aligned. Operating the blades by hand, I can't feel any increase in stiffness at all, and I can see both central strips still flexing a little so that the attached blades retain their 0.2mm (more or less) longitudinal displacement.

 

Will the two central joins stand up long term given that they flex? Well, guessing at how much stress is on the soldered pins, which I've concluded must be "a fair old bit," I really can't see my join taking anywhere near as much stress as that. So I'm reasonably confident my join will hold long term.

 

I think I mentioned it before, but I chose to put the strip one timber away from "the proper place", because that's the first location with a fixed chair either side of the blade. "The proper place" has a slide chair on one side and a fixed one on the other.

 

I soldered wing and closure rails, so only 2 feeds are now needed for each "frog" (all the green and all the orange bits in the instructions.) I might yet run a wire under the webbing to link each pair of strips to make it 1 feed each. Shame there aren't some channels moulded into the base to accommodate such wiring, but I guess that might weaken the base too much.

 

Anyway, despite my dodgy soldering, I think it looks quite a bit more discreet than with regular wires. What do you guys think?

 

Needless to say I feel like a toddler - just enough knowledge and dexterity to be highly dangerous while remaining in blissful ignorance until I get a spank...

 

 

11 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

How about using phosper bronze wire? that way you'll have the flexibility to allow the blades to move back and forth. That movement is really needed or you may well have the outer ends of the blades working loose.

 

 

I hadn't considered phosphor wire, thank you! Basically, I'd probably go for the smallest wire that won't result in anything melting, but I'm not sure how small that is. That said, the strip has the advantage of that big vertical surface for any future connections.

 

 

Right, think I'll go and wreak havoc with my outer switch blades next!

Edited September 7 by n9
Typo

[BWsTrains]

Regarding the outer blades, I've extracted this from your photo to better understand your plans.

 

 

 

B marks the location for the recommended wiring.

At A where I think you intend to wire, access from beneath is highly restricted because that is the mounting area for the "V" rails as shown on p3 of the instructions is solid base.

 

Regarding flexing of the switch blade at "B" in OO you are ~3mm from the fixed chair and from there to the top of the arc of the blade ((left end of line "C") is 30mm. At that point (again in OO) the rail gap is ~1mm so we could estimate a potential lateral movement of 0.1mm which is being restricted by the soldering at "B". I confess this point had escaped me as on regular turnouts with their longer blades there are fixed chairs either side of the wiring points.

 

Will it be a problem? These have been available for more than two years with no reports on here of issues as of yet.

 

 

Edited September 7 by BWsTrains
resized pic

[n9]

2 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

Regarding the outer blades, I've extracted this from your photo to better understand your plans.

 

 

 

B marks the location for the recommended wiring.

At A where I think you intend to wire, access from beneath is highly restricted because that is the mounting area for the "V" rails as shown on p3 of the instructions is solid base.

 

Regarding flexing of the switch blade at "B" in OO you are ~3mm from the fixed chair and from there to the top of the arc of the blade ((left end of line "C") is 30mm. At that point (again in OO) the rail gap is ~1mm so we could estimate a potential lateral movement of 0.1mm which is being restricted by the soldering at "B". I confess this point had escaped me as on regular turnouts with their longer blades there are fixed chairs either side of the wiring points.

 

Will it be a problem? These have been available for more than two years with no reports on here of issues as of yet.

 

 

 

Appreciate your reply!

 

Yes, for the outer blades I already saw that soldering at A isn't possible for the reasons you state, so it would be at B. Since B is the recommended place anyway, and because there is a tiny amount of lateral (vertical in the plane of the photo) flex in the blade on account of a slide chair being immediately to the left of B, I think the only consideration is whether brass strip will be stiffer than wire. And I think it probably won't be stiffer over that short length because multicore will soak up solder making it quite hard. That's my best guess anyway. In any case, I think the difference between the two would be so small as to not really matter.

 

Also, I won't be connecting stock rails at B because I'll be replacing them with longer rails connected elsewhere. But not connecting the stock rail at B might also mean that the blade is even less likely to be restricted - one less thing attached to it.

 

But yes, I think if soldering at B caused problems to outer blades we would have heard about it.

 

 

 

[Tumut]

On 05/09/2024 at 07:26, BWsTrains said:

In my book there are five types of instructions:

 

• A string of pics (no words) designed to show the route to build some 3D item (and which often fail in their purpose). World's biggest Furniture Co anyone?
   
• Wagon / Coach Kit instructions which unless you've done this before defy understanding, + (Var 2- diagram remains unchanged after an update to kit so doesn't make sense). Well known OO Kit Cos
   
• Exploded Loco chassis kit diagrams with so many components and steps illustrated plus highly detailed text that despite their excellence and undoubted accuracy defy understanding for beginners who need them most. Typically they ignore a crucial 1st step, (1 - take two Panadol and extended rest in a darkened room)
   
• Those with only a tiny CD or hyperlink supplied - I mean, tell me who's got a CD drive on a PC these days and anyway you're trying to set up / restore so the PC's not going properly - YET!
   
• British Finescale - excellent detail and step by step diagrams of the highest order. Given this, it seems a tad churlish to ignore Wayne's hard work putting them together.

 

 

 

 

Dear BWsTrains, and others,

 

I would add - Instructions written in one long stream of consciousness, and totally lacking punctuation, paragraphs, and originally reproduced on a roneo machine, of which you get a poor photocopy thereof, and which is at an angle to the page ! Regards, Tumut.

[BWsTrains]

At the other end of the spectrum and veering totally 180 degrees OT, my two younger children, now with their own in tow were searching our rabbitwarren of storage for old toys of interest to occupy the new Gen., one Christmas about 5-6 yrs ago.

 

They came across a very large storage tub of mixed LEGO kit components, 40 or so of them from space ships to trucks, giant to tiny, the lot  piece by piece and not a single instruction sheet, just the odd boxes or packs and memory to guide which kits they were from.

 

The manufacturer's website came good, providing download instructions for every kit they'd owned 30+ yrs ago and then followed a couple of intensive days of negative Entropy! First sorting by colour / size, the kits slowly came back to life. All possible because really good instructions are worth their weight in gold. First kit reassembled? "The lunar Space Station" of course. 

 

Since then one of our older grandkids has built the Apollo Saturn, all 1900 pieces of it. I hope he keeps it and the instructions for the next Gen.

 

 

Edited September 8 by BWsTrains

[bradfordbuffer]

40 minutes ago, BWsTrains said:

At the other end of the spectrum and veering totally 180 degrees OT, my two younger children, now with their own in tow were searching our rabbitwarren of storage for old toys of interest to occupy the new Gen., one Christmas about 5-6 yrs ago.

 

They came across a very large storage tub of mixed LEGO kit components, 40 or so of them from space ships to trucks, giant to tiny, the lot  piece by piece and not a single instruction sheet, just the odd boxes or packs and memory to guide which kits they were from.

 

The manufacturer's website came good, providing download instructions for every kit they'd owned 30+ yrs ago and then followed a couple of intensive days of negative Entropy! First sorting by colour / size, the kits slowly came back to life. All possible because really good instructions are worth their weight in gold. First kit reassembled? "The lunar Space Station" of course. 

 

Since then one of our older grandkids has built the Apollo Saturn, all 1900 pieces of it. I hope he keeps it and the instructions for the next Gen.

 

 

Luna lander.....1976? the one with predominantly blue bricks! An loads of 2x2 one sided slopping bricks? And a yellow ladder That's a memory from the past

Not as good as present day stuff but the slopping backs did come in handy to make boats with!