WR ‘15XX’ 0-6-0PT - 00 Gauge

[Budgie]

23 hours ago, AY Mod said:

Have you read the review to put context around the comment?

 

I can't remember. Which issue did the review appear in?

[AY Mod]

16 minutes ago, Budgie said:

 

I can't remember.

 

You're happy to say I shouldn't have said something but you can't remember if you have read it or the context of the comments and the overall findings?

[Budgie]

On 03/01/2024 at 23:40, AY Mod said:

 

You're happy to say I shouldn't have said something but you can't remember if you have read it or the context of the comments and the overall findings?

 

I am getting on in years, and I am getting forgetful. I've got one of these locos, so obviously I'm not bothered if they are ugly or not.

 

Maybe I should have asked you which issue the review was published in, so I can go to the relevant issue and read it (again). I normally read all the reviews in BRM, but I've been too busy to look at the most recent couple of issues, which is another reason why I'm not sure if I've read the review or not.

[Trofimow]

The 15xx saga finally staggers to a conclusion.

 

It came back this week from its second warranty trip to Rapido, having had some of its pickups replaced.

 

Eureka - all was good - for about 15 minutes, until the erratic running and stalling returned.

 

Inspection revealed that two of the pickup pins on one side had retracted with the sideplay as the loco rounded a curve and had remained retracted, leaving only one pickup working on that side of the loco.

 

That's three times this loco has been "rectified" under warranty, once by the retailer, and twice by Rapido, and it's no better.

 

Enough is enough, it's on its way back to the retailer for a refund.

They have been excellent about it and very understanding considering it's not their fault.

Kudos to Rails of Sheffield.

[stevemmm]

Perhaps the springs in the wipers are not strong enough

[John Isherwood]

3 minutes ago, stevemmm said:

Perhaps the springs in the wipers are not strong enough

 

My experience of plunger pickups is that they jam - I won't touch them with the proverbial disinfected bargepole!

 

CJI.

[Trofimow]

23 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

My experience of plunger pickups is that they jam - I won't touch them with the proverbial disinfected bargepole!

 

CJI.

Quite.

Do I vaguely remember 14xx models back in the 80's having similar troubles?

[Miss Prism]

Spring-operated plungers are ok if the spring is of the right type. Short-travel coil springs are far from ideal.

 

[John Isherwood]

44 minutes ago, Trofimow said:

Quite.

Do I vaguely remember 14xx models back in the 80's having similar troubles?

 

Yep - Airfix 14xx; no end of problems at the time.

 

The difference between too slack (twist and jam); just right (sliding fit, can't jam); and too tight (can't slide and therefore jam) is too small to be achievable in mass-production.

 

Where achievable, flexible phosphor-bronze strips bearing on the edges of the wheel flanges is the optimum method of self-cleaning current collection.

 

CJI.

[Butler Henderson]

The Airfix 14xx pick ups typically failed because the springs could not cope with the current draw of the motor.

[stevemmm]

With the increased voltage and current available on DCC layouts one wonders if the springs anneal and loose their springiness

[GWR-fan]

Many largescale manufacturers including LGB used sprung carbon brush pickups.  The downside is that a combination of the dust from the carbon brushes plus any lubricant that may have been applied to the axles and had migrated out to the brush contact area on the rear face of the driving wheel,  would cause the pickup to seize in its casing.  The springs used were reasonably substantial and yet the pickups would still seize.  As stated previously,  high amperage draw will have an impact on the "elasticity" of the spring and in combination with a bit of crud could easily cause the pickup to malfunction.  In my opinion a poor choice given how the simple phosphor bronze pickup strips have worked tirelessly with other manufacturer's products.

[Trofimow]

This was my only Rapido locomotive purchase.

As a matter of interest is the plunger pickup their standard system or is it unique to this model?

[rapidoandy]

We have no ‘standard’ pickup method (these things that modellers believe are often a fallacy) we look at things on a case by case method depending on a large number of factors.

 

Always  remember the golden rule of the internet - a far greater percentage of negativity will be posted rather than positivity. Whilst there will always be problems that we will help resolve - it’s not as dire as many people posting in threads will have you believe.
 

Now if only all of that negative energy could be harnessed….or even some of those people who post it persuaded to work for a manufacturer - with their expertise there would never be a model with a fault or even the slightest blemish - that’s really easy right?

[John Isherwood]

58 minutes ago, rapidoandy said:

We have no ‘standard’ pickup method (these things that modellers believe are often a fallacy) we look at things on a case by case method depending on a large number of factors.

 

Always  remember the golden rule of the internet - a far greater percentage of negativity will be posted rather than positivity. Whilst there will always be problems that we will help resolve - it’s not as dire as many people posting in threads will have you believe.
 

Now if only all of that negative energy could be harnessed….or even some of those people who post it persuaded to work for a manufacturer - with their expertise there would never be a model with a fault or even the slightest blemish - that’s really easy right?

 

All this is true, and my contributions were meant to be informative rather than negative.

 

The 'negativity' here may well be disappointing to the manufacturer, but it can be a useful indicator that something is not quite right.

 

Certainly, from my sixty-plus years of both RTR and kitbuilt locos, I would never again buy or use plunger pick-ups - their design and set-up are just too critical for reliable running.

 

CJI.

Edited January 18 by cctransuk

[Trofimow]

56 minutes ago, rapidoandy said:

We have no ‘standard’ pickup method (these things that modellers believe are often a fallacy) we look at things on a case by case method depending on a large number of factors.

 

Always  remember the golden rule of the internet - a far greater percentage of negativity will be posted rather than positivity. Whilst there will always be problems that we will help resolve - it’s not as dire as many people posting in threads will have you believe.
 

 

 

PM sent.

[GWR-fan]

44 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

................................................

 

The 'negativity' here may well be disappointing to the manufacturer, but it can be a useful indicator that something is not quite right.

 

........................................................................

 

CJI.

 

Reminds me of a story that I heard over fifty years ago.   Ettore Bugatti was very proud of his motor vehicles.  They were extremely well designed and fast but apparently the brakes could do with some improvement.  An owner of one such car who had complained about the poor braking performance,  was presented to Monsieur Bugatti,  who upon seeing the man retorted "So you are the man who is giving my car so much trouble".

 

For the manufacturer,  no matter how good the design,  success or failure is dependent on the factory assembly line team.  In the last few months I have purchased five new locomotives from two manufacturers, with three from Rapido and two from EFE Rail.  The Hunslet from Rapido I am reasonably comfortable with it being a long term reliable runner,  however, the other four new purchases in my opinion have a very limited lifetime without ongoing rectification.  My recent experience has deterred me from any further new purchases from any manufacturer as I have no confidence in the product that I will receive.  In the same period I have purchased around twenty pre-owned locomotives and bar one or two,  the majority have been perfect runners out of the box and some perhaps are nearly twenty years old.  If a Chinese factory could manufacture a reliable runner twenty years ago then why not now?

Edited January 18 by GWR-fan
Additional information

[Legend]

5 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

 

Reminds me of a story that I heard over fifty years ago.   Ettore Bugatti was very proud of his motor vehicles.  They were extremely well designed and fast but apparently the brakes could do with some improvement.  An owner of one such car who had complained about the poor braking performance,  was presented to Monsieur Bugatti,  who upon seeing the man retorted "So you are the man who is giving my car so much trouble".

 

For the manufacturer,  no matter how good the design,  success or failure is dependent on the factory assembly line team.  In the last few months I have purchased five new locomotives from two manufacturers, with three from Rapido and two from EFE Rail.  The Hunslet from Rapido I am reasonably comfortable with it being a long term reliable runner,  however, the other four new purchases in my opinion have a very limited lifetime without ongoing rectification.  My recent experience has deterred me from any further new purchases from any manufacturer as I have no confidence in the product that I will receive.  In the same period I have purchased around twenty pre-owned locomotives and bar one or two,  the majority have been perfect runners out of the box and some perhaps are nearly twenty years old.  If a Chinese factory could manufacture a reliable runner twenty years ago then why not now?

Because, rightly or wrongly, we are much more demanding . There needs to be facilities for sound , firebox glow , stay alive , maybe even steam . All adds to the complexity and need for electronic gubbins . But I’m with you , I think we perhaps need a simplified approach . I am concerned at these plunger pickups , well aware of issues on the Airfix 14XX from 1978 !  I hope the forthcoming Jones Goods doesn’t have them . This will be my first Rapido locomotive 

[Mallard60022]

Weird really that I have bought far too many Loco's, many brand new products, including Two Rapido, Pannier 16XX and Pannier 15XX and an Accurascale Manor. Maybe one or two of around 30 recent Purchases have had a couple of minor issues, possibly as they are new unused but been on a shelf for some time? None were the above 3. Even my Oxford rail radial was sweet, if a little toy like.

Phil

[stevemmm]

A factor in this is that I believe most models do not get seriously used, giving a false indication of any issues. I help with so many estates where models have never been taken out of the box.  My experience with larger scales is that some chinese manufactures threat you like an unusual person if you take loco out of the box and try to use it, it seems most purchasers don't do that.

[Trofimow]

I guess I may be a little unusual in that I have a large layout designed for intensive operation and I DO require my locos to work reliably for their keep . It does very quickly reveal any shortcomings.

[GWR-fan]

1 hour ago, stevemmm said:

A factor in this is that I believe most models do not get seriously used, giving a false indication of any issues. I help with so many estates where models have never been taken out of the box.  My experience with larger scales is that some chinese manufactures threat you like an unusual person if you take loco out of the box and try to use it, it seems most purchasers don't do that.

 

I presume by your statement that you are infering that because the majority of consumers do not actually run their models that any issues with performance are down to lack of use.  Given that the model in question is a new release and issues have been reported with performance then your statement is not valid in this instance.

 

Until recently when I "downsized"  I owned numerous LGB locomotives dating back to the late 1960's that were as new mint in their boxes. They basically had received no use since originally purchased and no maintenance as they were in storage.  I could guarantee though that I could remove them from their boxes and they would run faultlessly.  Similarly many, many Hornby models from the early 2000's with no use at all could be taken from their packages and run flawlessly.  What has changed?

[stevemmm]

Depends on the model, in some twenty year plus models the plastic becomes unstable and some cast metal parts fall to pieces or grow in size preventing operation.  With live steam 45mm models these are usually only tested on air pressure in the chinese factories and problems are found when you try to fire them on gas or meths. 

[spamcan61]

11 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 

I presume by your statement that you are infering that because the majority of consumers do not actually run their models that any issues with performance are down to lack of use.  

I think it's more a case of  models aren't used so there's no indication of whether they're working OK or not due to lack of elapsed hours use.

[Schooner]

On 18/01/2024 at 11:43, GWR-fan said:

If a Chinese factory could manufacture a reliable runner twenty years ago then why not now?

 

Because, IIUC, China is undergoing a bit of a labour crisis, particularly in the semi-skilled area I assume model railways fall into.

 

Of course factories still can produce whatever is contracted to the standard and QA levels contracted...but the market won't bear the cost. Laying into Rapido over design choices or manufacturing issues is pointless unless you can put your finger on a better balance of compromises.

 

Time:cost:quality, as ever.