WR ‘15XX’ 0-6-0PT - 00 Gauge

[Trofimow]

Well the saga of my 15XX rolls on...

 

Having been unreliable from day 1 with symptoms of intermittent pickup it went back to the retailer for rectification, only to come back to me with no improvement.

 

Consequently, it then went back to Rapido under warranty and they did warn me that it would take some time to come to the top of the queue for attention.

 

Well, it finally arrived back a couple of days ago, with the assessment that there is no fault, but the the retailer fitted DCC decoder is faulty.

 

I suspected that the apparent decoder fault was a symptom of intermittent power, rather than a fault per se, so as nobody else is going to properly investigate the matter, I have done so myself and these are my findings:-

 

All 3 axles have considerable side play and some vertical play, which makes for excellent track holding.

 

There are 6 pick up pins, one bearing on the back of each wheel. Of the 6, only 1 is actually in firm contact with the wheel throughout the range of articulation of the axle. 3 do not touch the wheel at all at the limits of sideplay, and 2 are only in very light contact.

 

The chances of reliable running thus appear somewhat remote.

 

It would appear that the pick ups have a more restricted range of movement than do the wheels.

 

the 15xx will either be going back to Rapido again for proper rectification or if that is not to be, it will go back to the unfortunate retailer for a refund.

 

For the moment, I will let my preorder stand for the 01, but my confidence in Rapido is not what it once was.

[RapidoCorbs]

A quick thought - We do not share the belief that there is such a thing as 'excessive detail' or that the issue that customers have been having is that the models are 'too detailed'. What we are mainly seeing is a combination of errors made during assembly* and damage in transit. There are some design approaches that are being improved building on this experience.

We are always looking at packaging, especially with regard to the 'last leg' of the journey. Most models that arrive in our warehouse from the factory have not been damaged in transit, only to then get belted across a sorting centre in the UK. As an example of this, the models that are coming in for warranty are being given new clamshells when they are sent out again in an effort to better protect them.

We have confidence that the factories we work with are capable of making excellent models with high levels of detail, as evidenced by the examples of 15xx locos that are well-assembled and run nicely, which is why we are addressing this situation internally.

 

*This can also apply to running issues e.g. a wheel that has not been pressed on to an axle properly.

[rapidoandy]

1 hour ago, Trofimow said:

Well the saga of my 15XX rolls on...

 

Having been unreliable from day 1 with symptoms of intermittent pickup it went back to the retailer for rectification, only to come back to me with no improvement.

 

Consequently, it then went back to Rapido under warranty and they did warn me that it would take some time to come to the top of the queue for attention.

 

Well, it finally arrived back a couple of days ago, with the assessment that there is no fault, but the the retailer fitted DCC decoder is faulty.

 

I suspected that the apparent decoder fault was a symptom of intermittent power, rather than a fault per se, so as nobody else is going to properly investigate the matter, I have done so myself and these are my findings:-

 

All 3 axles have considerable side play and some vertical play, which makes for excellent track holding.

 

There are 6 pick up pins, one bearing on the back of each wheel. Of the 6, only 1 is actually in firm contact with the wheel throughout the range of articulation of the axle. 3 do not touch the wheel at all at the limits of sideplay, and 2 are only in very light contact.

 

The chances of reliable running thus appear somewhat remote.

 

It would appear that the pick ups have a more restricted range of movement than do the wheels.

 

the 15xx will either be going back to Rapido again for proper rectification or if that is not to be, it will go back to the unfortunate retailer for a refund.

 

For the moment, I will let my preorder stand for the 01, but my confidence in Rapido is not what it once was.

 

I'm sorry that you are still having problems.

 

I have just looked into this and found the paperwork here. We removed your decoder and tested it with one of our own ESU sound decoders and it ran perfectly well on the test track. Likewise with a blanking plate it also ran well which lead us to the conclusion that the decoder was at fault. We know some decoders are better than others - can you remind me your decoder type as that is not referenced on the paperwork ( I have asked for this to be logged from now on).

 

The full limit of travel is not needed on the recommended radius of curves so the pickups are unlikely to all come away from the wheels unless it is being operated over very tight corners. Again testing on our R2 test track showed not problems.

 

Please do fill in the warranty form - we will happily take another look and check the pickups as required.

 

Many thanks and Merry Christmas.

 

Andy

[Trofimow]

Hello Andy,

 

The decoder as fitted is a Rails of Sheffield own brand, as fitted by them. It does appear to magnify any power interruption, in as much as it will then reset which takes half a second or so.

 

 I have also tried a Gaugemaster decoder, which does not show the reset delay, but the loco still stalls repeatedly on the layout, as indeed it does on DC.

 

My curves are min R3, minimum point size peco medium radius. The stalling is most common on change of direction, but can also happen on plain track.

 

It is a large layout, with computer control, and reliable running is essential, and none of my numerous other locos exhibits these problems irrespective of brand or type of decoder. Unfortunately, the 15XX is currently unusable as a layout loco.

[03060]

I've just bought my 2nd 15xx so that I can model the 2 locos based at Newport Pill shed in the late 50s, 1506 and 1507. I've found a photo of 1507 which suits a re-number of my 1501 model but haven't so far found any photos of 1506 other than a distant shot.

 

As my newest model is the 1506 plain black with no emblems version can anybody point me in the direction of any photos or info regarding the early livery of this loco please as I assume that their must be some reason for Rapido to produce it like that.

 

I've checked through the few WR books that I have but haven't as yet found my Pannier Papers set which I'm fairly sure I bought when they came out but haven't needed until now ... need to check into the darker recesses of the loft !!

 

Any help appreciated,

Regards,

Ian.

[gwrrob]

There’s a photo of 1506 in the Pannier Papers that has no insignia and could be the photo Rapido used. It’s a colour rail photo so it might be on their website too.

[Captain Kernow]

4 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

We are always looking at packaging, especially with regard to the 'last leg' of the journey. Most models that arrive in our warehouse from the factory have not been damaged in transit, only to then get belted across a sorting centre in the UK.

Perhaps a courier who takes more care of expensive and delicate products is required?

[Fair Oak Junction]

Considering every courier in the UK has been the subject of horror stories when it comes to parcel handling, could take a while for them to find one 😉

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

Considering every courier in the UK has been the subject of horror stories when it comes to parcel handling, could take a while for them to find one 😉

Indeed. I was just hoping for better things!

 

[Pteremy]

6 hours ago, Trofimow said:

Hello Andy,

 

The decoder as fitted is a Rails of Sheffield own brand, as fitted by them. It does appear to magnify any power interruption, in as much as it will then reset which takes half a second or so.

 

 I have also tried a Gaugemaster decoder, which does not show the reset delay, but the loco still stalls repeatedly on the layout, as indeed it does on DC.

 

My curves are min R3, minimum point size peco medium radius. The stalling is most common on change of direction, but can also happen on plain track.

 

It is a large layout, with computer control, and reliable running is essential, and none of my numerous other locos exhibits these problems irrespective of brand or type of decoder. Unfortunately, the 15XX is currently unusable as a layout loco.

 

I cannot claim to understand the precise nature of the problem you are experiencing. But, as has been noted in this thread before, the 15xx does seem to be good at highlighting layout imperfections. In the last week I have been running my 15xx, back and forth, with a 3 coach load. It stalled at 2 places that have sometimes caused issues before, particularly with short wheelbase locos - a Peco point and a section break. [This is on the DCC half of my layout, but with switched sections left over from when it was just DC.] I think that the issue in both cases was that the track was particularly uneven at one or more of the joints, of which there were several over a very short distance, but electrical connectivity could have been a factor. So i decided to do what I should have done ages ago, fix the track, reducing the number of track joints. Having done so the 15xx glides around as sweetly as I would want - and expect - it to do. 

[stevemmm]

My first 15xx from Hattons failed with pick up problems after 30 minutes so the loco went back to the UK for repair at Rapido. Two months later the loco with a replacement chassis arrived but also failed with pick up problems.  Rapido seem very busy and are very helpful when they can with this beautiful model. However to avoid another 20,000 mile 2 month trip maybe I can tweak the pick ups myself, having been in the hobby 50+ years and have scratch built 150 locos. The pick ups seem to be lightweight and frail.

Please can anyone give their experiences with this loco or this type of plunger pick ups. They seem difficult to get to, can anyone advise on disassembly to do pick up maintenance. 

I cannot find the exploded drawing of the loco, although it may not be much help..

My understanding with my 10 years operating DCC on a 14x7m club layout is that pick ups need to be robust and fully effective. Maybe there will be a case in the future to retrofit traditional sturdy pick ups for people to enjoy this magnificent model in frequent operation. Perhaps a replacement keeper plate?

From my experience more than half of model locos built never get used to any great extent.

Edited December 24, 2023 by stevemmm

[Trofimow]

2 hours ago, Pteremy said:

 

I cannot claim to understand the precise nature of the problem you are experiencing. But, as has been noted in this thread before, the 15xx does seem to be good at highlighting layout imperfections. In the last week I have been running my 15xx, back and forth, with a 3 coach load. It stalled at 2 places that have sometimes caused issues before, particularly with short wheelbase locos - a Peco point and a section break. [This is on the DCC half of my layout, but with switched sections left over from when it was just DC.] I think that the issue in both cases was that the track was particularly uneven at one or more of the joints, of which there were several over a very short distance, but electrical connectivity could have been a factor. So i decided to do what I should have done ages ago, fix the track, reducing the number of track joints. Having done so the 15xx glides around as sweetly as I would want - and expect - it to do. 

It's a fair question, is it the loco, or  could the layout be at fault.

 

Effingham is a large layout, over 5 levels and is computer controlled.

A train failure anywhere on the layout is a major issue, both from the consideration of access to rescue it, which is non trivial, and for the chaos caused to the automatic timetable.

 

Consequently, there is a very stringent acceptance test before any train is added to the roster.

A new model must complete 3 continuous circumnavigations of the layout without stalling, derailing or parting of couplings.

One circuit of the layout at the specified test speed of 40 scale MPH takes 16 minutes and 10 seconds.

 

So far, 91 models have passed this test, from manufacturers including Accurascale, Bachmann, Dapol, DJ Models, EFE, Heljan, Hornby, Kernow, Lima, Rails, etc.

 

The 15xx fails miserably to travel even 20% of the first level without stalling and is unique in this.

I rest my case.

[NHY 581]

The 15xx perhaps highlights mail order v picking up from a retailer. 

 

With regard to the stock received by a retailer, it arrives well packed from Rapido. Working at a Rapido stockist,  when the first issues were being highlighted on here, I checked every model we had in stock regarding running and finish. Some models, perhaps half a dozen had already been sold but these had been tested prior to them leaving with a customer or being posted out. All of those were good. 

 

Of the rest, ultimately perhaps six or seven were deemed not good enough to offer for sale and have subsequently been returned to Rapido. These had running issues, damage or excessive glue as alluded to on this thread by various contributors. 

 

So out of an original order of easily 40+ ( combined silent and sound fitted) I am only aware of one of our customers who went on to have an issue and were contacted by Rapido via this forum. Given our relationship with our custmers, we would have been made aware ofanymore. At this time, we have, roughly eight left in stock but with these, we're happy that they are saleable as they have already been tested and examined.....and will be once again when purchased or prior to posting. 

 

As I see it, Rapido have acknowledged the issues with this model and are engaging with customers to resolve any issues. The fault arguably lies then with retailers not running or examining the models prior to posting them to customers and if there are any faults with them, they must be ignoring them and hoping for the best, as it were.....That's cannot be acceptable and doesn't do anybody any favours. 

 

 

 

Rob. 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by NHY 581

[Miss Prism]

19 hours ago, gwrrob said:

There’s a photo of 1506 in the Pannier Papers that has no insignia and could be the photo Rapido used. It’s a colour rail photo so it might be on their website too.

 

Of the Colour Rail pics of 1506 where the livery is discernible, they show a late crest.

 

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Of the Colour Rail pics of 1506 where the livery is discernible, they show a late crest.

 

 

Dirty or plain?

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p49470642/e8c5f20ac

 

 

Undated here, late crest. I would suggest post May 1962 rather than 1950s.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p49470642/ee9e2ee41

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

7 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Dirty or plain?

 

Dirty, I reckon.

[NHY 581]

Two more to be going on with. 

 

 

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-1500-0-6-0PT/i-W5hZWhR/A

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/16047330759

 

 

Rob. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[03060]

2 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

Two more to be going on with. 

 

 

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-1500-0-6-0PT/i-W5hZWhR/A

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/16047330759

 

 

Rob. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Rob, I reckoned to have done a search on't tinternet but hadn't come up with the Peter Brabham (Taffy Tank) photo, which when enlarged twice on my tablet doesn't seem to show any visible signs of an emblem on the tank side which is definitely dirty ... so I think that I shall leave my 1506 emblemless and try and employ some of your weathering techniques from your own thread to recreate the image as seen in the photo.

 

Great help, thankyou all.

Regards,

Ian.

[Silver Sidelines]

Here is another view, 1962, Late Crest.

 

 

 

Photo FG Steinle

Ray

Edited December 23, 2023 by Silver Sidelines

[Steamport Southport]

Just before it went to OOC.

 

I was wondering whether it had gone for an overhaul and repaint before reallocation and got the late crest then, as it does seem quite clean in some photos of it at Paddington.

 

 

Jason

[Les1952]

On 22/12/2023 at 22:05, Trofimow said:

It's a fair question, is it the loco, or  could the layout be at fault.

 

Effingham is a large layout, over 5 levels and is computer controlled.

A train failure anywhere on the layout is a major issue, both from the consideration of access to rescue it, which is non trivial, and for the chaos caused to the automatic timetable.

 

Consequently, there is a very stringent acceptance test before any train is added to the roster.

A new model must complete 3 continuous circumnavigations of the layout without stalling, derailing or parting of couplings.

One circuit of the layout at the specified test speed of 40 scale MPH takes 16 minutes and 10 seconds.

 

So far, 91 models have passed this test, from manufacturers including Accurascale, Bachmann, Dapol, DJ Models, EFE, Heljan, Hornby, Kernow, Lima, Rails, etc.

 

The 15xx fails miserably to travel even 20% of the first level without stalling and is unique in this.

I rest my case.

 

I'm going to jump in and say that if MOST locos perform well on a layout even with a fault on that layout, then ANY loco that doesn't is not fit for purpose.

 

My layout NO PLACE has industrial track in the colliery- deliberately wonky because that is how collieries were in the last couple of years before they closed.  I don't expect more than a select handful of locos (mainly Hornby J94s and Bachmann 03/08s) to cope with that track.  On the other hand the passenger and preservation side is laid to a much higher standard and I expect ALL suitably-sized 0-6-0 or 0-4-4 tanks to cope with it.  The only ones that haven't have been Bachmann Panniers where there isn't enough flexibility in the wheelbase.  These have been sold on.  The 15xx copes well with the layout, though it hasn't ventured into the colliery yet. 

 

A prototype observation.  At Shotton Colliery less than a year before it closed in the seventies I watched as a  loaded 21-ton hopper wagon was put back on the track.  How?  Sleepers brought over from up the yard by the engine (STAGSHAW) and laid in the mud on either side of the track.  Heavy duty jacks on the sleepers with another sleeper across under the buffers of the wagon.  The wagon was then lifted up clear of the rails.  Sledgehammers were used to bash the rails until the track was underneath the wagon, which was then dropped onto the newly misaligned track.  

 

Industrials led a hard life.

 

Les

 

[03060]

One last post from me on the subject of 1506 and it's plain black livery, having taken the hint from the above photos that others have found I widened my Flickr search to include Newport Ebbw Jct shed instead of just Newport Pill ... which produced this rather splendid colour image by Robert Gadson.

 

 

Seasons greetings,

Regards,

Ian.

[Pteremy]

On 22/12/2023 at 11:39, RapidoCorbs said:

A quick thought - We do not share the belief that there is such a thing as 'excessive detail' or that the issue that customers have been having is that the models are 'too detailed'. What we are mainly seeing is a combination of errors made during assembly* and damage in transit. There are some design approaches that are being improved building on this experience.

 

I do think it important to include 'design' in the mix, as, for most of us, a model needs to be 'usable'. For example, if a detail only needs a very small quantity of glue to be attached then it is not surprising that sometimes too little is used, or perhaps none at all, and at some point the joint fails. From what I have experienced and read all manufacturers suffer from this to some degree or other. The issue for the purchaser is that they then need a degree of luck to spot the failure - something loose in the box on arrival, or something pinging off on the workbench. If something falls off while the item is on use on a layout you may never find it. So yes, I welcome the level of detail, but the end product still needs to be usable, and that is an issue for the designer.

[Michael Hodgson]

On 23/12/2023 at 10:28, NHY 581 said:

As I see it, Rapido have acknowledged the issues with this model and are engaging with customers to resolve any issues. The fault arguably lies then with retailers not running or examining the models prior to posting them to customers and if there are any faults with them, they must be ignoring them and hoping for the best, as it were.....That's cannot be acceptable and doesn't do anybody any favours. 

 

 

 

Rob. 

 

 

It seems you are saying quality control checks are the repsonsibiity of the retailer rather than the manufacturer.

I don't believe for one minute that most retailers inspect and test run locos.  I don't imagine the box even gets opened in most cases, especially the larger "box shifters" who sell at a discount.

 

Indeed if sold through ebay they shouldn't strictly be called "new"  if the packaging had been opened. 

Not that I agree with ebay on such matters nor that I am critisicing retailers who do provide a better service.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

It seems you are saying quality control checks are the repsonsibiity of the retailer rather than the manufacturer.

I don't believe for one minute that most retailers inspect and test run locos.  I don't imagine the box even gets opened in most cases, especially the larger "box shifters" who sell at a discount.

 

Indeed if sold through ebay they shouldn't strictly be called "new"  if the packaging had been opened. 

Not that I agree with ebay on such matters nor that I am critisicing retailers who do provide a better service.

 

Yep. It's a very dodgy practice and covered under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

 

No one should be opening boxes apart from the purchaser. Do people expect Argos to check their new TV for them? They don't as it's against the law!

 

 

Jason