Road Charging and Electric Vehicles...

[woodenhead]

They've already realigned the annual car tax as the push to more efficient less polluting cars was cutting funds to the exchequer.  They will have to do something around this again soon as electric vehicles increase in number.  There is also a challenge from disrupters entering the market with car pooling schemes in cities where you can rent a car by the hour (or something similar) so you don't have to actually own a car any longer as this will cut sales and car tax.

 

Incentives to buy electric vehicles will become counter-productive once sales reach a certain threshold and will cease making the cars temporarily more expensive until prices re-align to reflect reducing cost of production as these vehicles become the mainstream and the ICE engine cars become the minority in production.

 

Fuel tax collected will dramatically begin to drop in the next decade as people switch over and this too will need to be addressed.

 

No matter how we look at it the Government expects a level of income in order to be able to function and spend money - it doesn't have a never ending supply of magic money trees.  If taxation is lost from one source then it needs to be replaced or the Government has to make cuts to expenditure.  Sometimes it has to force the agenda even though it knows there will be a cost - smoking is one of them, there was lots of money to make from this but it was a public health issue so it had to find a way to not need that income by getting it elsewhere or making cuts, it will be the same with petrol.

 

The current system of a yearly road tax + income based on consumption from fuel works and I expect they will attempt to replace it with something not altogether dissimilar as it seems the fairest means with the heaviest users paying the most.  Quite how they calculate the mileage will be the challenge, and comes under the same umbrella as energy billing as with smart meters we know the future is based on variable tariffs.   Perhaps applying an energy consumption tax will be the answer - encouraging charging at the cheapest rates to incur the least tax but also then basing it on the consumption model and varying tariffs without having to invade upon peoples privacy in where they travel to and when.

[Nearholmer]

Just now, giz said:

The only way to tell what is the most sustainable is to price in the externalities and then use the most 'economically efficient'.

 

About the only proxy that might work, I agree.

 

Goodness only knows, though, how one prices-in an externality such as "reducing global species count".

 

It might require a complete change of viewpoint, so that "is it sustainable?" or perhaps "how sustainable is it?" becomes the first question, sustainability itself as a currency, if you like, and old-style economics become confined to making choices from among sustainable alternatives.

 

I don't know the answers, but I do know that we are asking the wrong questions right now.

[rocor]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

Any method which involves any sort of tracking I find pretty appalling. If it's done simply by looking at the difference in mileage every year then OK. If it's variable by road or time but by merely accumulating a total that's checked every year then possibly OK (needs to know position and time but doesn't store or transmit it). If it involves live tracking then it's another step to dystopia.

 

The question then becomes who apart from the taxation authorities has permission to access the data.

Obviously the police would be able to in a criminal case. But beyond that?, would for instance, your vehicles travel data be available to someone who was pursuing a case against you in a civil court?. Then what started as the pointy end of a wedge becomes steadily thicker.

[black and decker boy]

This shouldn't really be a shock to anyone. I am lucky that I get a fleet car from work. I switched to a BEV last December as it attracted a 0% BIK tax rate for this tax year vs a Diesel with a 23% BIK. That is £400 or so per month of income tax I no longer pay. This year there have been 76,000 BEV registered in the UK. Many will be fleet vehicles so the loss in Income tax alone is high. My employer gains as the running costs of my car drop from 11p / mile to 4p / mile. (The BEV BIK is on an escalator so no one under any illusion that the tax will return but slowly, its rising at 1% per tax year currently).

 

Add in loss of petrol \ diesel tax and you can see the hole forming for HM Treasury.

 

Road & fuel taxes have needed reform for a long time but the entrenched views and pro-road lobby have always thwarted it. The Paris accord and forced switch away from ICUs will drive the change through.

 

In terms of tracking, most motorways & trunk roads and many local roads are already fitted with ANPR technology - you are already being tracked by your Reg plate. If you have a mobile phone with you, your movements are also being tracked via the signal & GPS data. This is how Google maps shows congestion in real time, its how local councils track & predict congestion.

[Reorte]

55 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

"Economic efficiency" isn't a God though, is it?

 

If we decide to do things that aren't "economically efficient", because we want to do things that are "sustainability efficient" instead, the sky doesn't fall-in.

 

The big problem with "economic effiiciency" is that it externalises (= dumps on somebody else, often the next generation) a huge proportion of costs - one view of it would be to say that it is actually a con trick.

 

Very much agree, but the question is how do we avoid it? Any business that tries to will have its costs rise and its customer base drop significantly. So they've got to go with what's most efficient in order to simply stay afloat, or find a niche that's probably only going to work for a small business. Ask people to spend more? Even in the unlikely event that attitudes change enough for them to do so that's still spreading spending less, and hence an overall smaller economy, and hence lower pay and / or fewer jobs. It's a vicious circle, but not necessarily the result of deliberate action, just people and businesses trying to get by. It's very hard to get out of a system that's part of every aspect of day to day life, and that works because it optimises for basic human immediate desires.

 

edit to add: There are certainly some other factors that come in to play a bit. Maybe not as much as we feel they should but a business's stance on various issues can have some effect, although maybe only in edge cases (e.g. given a choice of two otherwise equal supermarkets some dodgy business practices or reports about employment discrimination - I'm making examples up for the sake of illustration, nothing more - will result in some going to the other one. But they may not if it was still around the corner and the other one ten miles away).

Edited November 17, 2020 by Reorte

[Reorte]

20 minutes ago, rocor said:

 

The question then becomes who apart from the taxation authorities has permission to access the data.

Obviously the police would be able to in a criminal case. But beyond that?, would for instance, your vehicles travel data be available to someone who was pursuing a case against you in a civil court?. Then what started as the pointy end of a wedge becomes steadily thicker.

 

Indeed, although I just don't like the idea even without it being misused in any sense like that. Tracking, monitoring, recording - I find them all fundamentally disagreeable (I'd never take a job where my every action is recorded, and not because I want to get away with doing things I shouldn't). Sometimes justified but it always needs a very good case.

 

The approach though of being able to build a cumulative total based on where you are and when but only storing that total, rather than the information that contributed towards it, would get around that - it's really not much more information than is provided by the mileage.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Reorte

[giz]

7 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

The approach though of being able to build a cumulative total based on where you are and when but only storing that total, rather than the information that contributed towards it, would get around that - it's really not much more information than is provided by the mileage.

That could be done within the car if it knows where it is and what the current mileage rate is on that road. Only the cost would be relayed to a central charging base and charged to your account. There is no reason why anybodies location need be logged but I can see that certain people would like to do that.

[woodenhead]

Congestion charging was about the lessening the pollution impact of lots of cars in a confined area - electric cars will not have that problem.

 

I don't see a need to know where you travel to and what time with electric transport.

 

The simplest method is to simply add on a tax to energy consumption linked to smart meters and charging points - it addresses the consumption calculation without having to establish complicated tracking solutions that provide no benefit over charging at the source of the 'juice' for the vehicle that have all sorts of implications over privacy.

Edited November 17, 2020 by woodenhead

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

The simplest method is to simply add on a tax to energy consumption linked to smart meters and charging points - it addresses the consumption calculation without having to establish complicated tracking solutions that provide no benefit over charging at the source of the 'juice' for the vehicle that have all sorts of implications over privacy.

 

How do you you know what the electricity is being used for? You can plug your car into a 13A socket.

BTW public charging already attracts VAT at the full rate.

[Neil]

Whatever model of tax revenue is decided will disadvantage some, give advantage to others and will have to overcome the 'well we've always done it this way' factor for many.  The other certainty is that we're experiencing the beginning of the end of the internal combustion engine for private motoring; will any mourn it's loss like the end of steam on the mainline?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

 will any mourn it's loss like the end of steam on the mainline?

 

Loads of people like going brum brum and waggling a gear stick.

[Reorte]

1 minute ago, Neil said:

 The other certainty is that we're experiencing the beginning of the end of the internal combustion engine for private motoring; will any mourn it's loss like the end of steam on the mainline?

Quite a few people keen on their cars will. Most people, who just see a car as a way of getting from A to B, won't. Most people see trains the same way too. Expect less mourning as the norm becomes more blandly utilitarian. Although when it comes to cars I've nothing against electrics, blandly utilitarian happened years ago with cars anyway.

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

How do you you know what the electricity is being used for? You can plug your car into a 13A socket.

BTW public charging already attracts VAT at the full rate.

It would be in addition to current VAT, I don't have all the answers but I do know that simply taxing the charging would be less expensive to set up than setting up a network to track a vehicle 24/7 not to mention the further erosion of the right to personal privacy in what I do and where I go.

[Stanley Melrose]

A couple of points that might be of interest.

 

There is a great deal of interest from insurance companies in tracking driver behaviour.  The EU declared that it was illegal to discriminate against women drivers by requiring insurance companies to stop offering premiums that reflected the fact that statistically women are safer drivers than men, i.e. men and women of the same driving experience and record have to be charged the same premium.  The industry response is to move to personally computed premiums based on driver performance - hence collecting data on every journey by every driver wishing to be insured.  That data is used to compute the premium and is entirely personal so bypasses any sexual discrimination.  I think it only a matter of time before such telemetry is mandatory.  In fact my all-new VW ID.3 is internet linked whenever I drive it.  This isn't for insurance purposes but so that VW can monitor the performance of their new product.

 

Regarding the tax issue, I recommend anyone who thinks that taxes pay for anything to read "The Deficit Myth" by Stephanie Kelton (or any other of the many books on "Modern Monetary Theory") and realise that many governments' response to the COVID crisis is following this economic theory, even if they t never admit it.  The issue is how will the almost inevitable inflation be avoided once a degree of normality returns post-pandemic.  The obvious answer is by improved productivity but that is something that this country has been unable to manage no matter what complexion of government is or has been in power.

 

Keep safe . . . 

 

Stan

[Guest]

There might be less resistance to road pricing among people who are starting to drive now. They are increasingly using black box telemetry based insurance that's priced according to how they drive.

[Free At Last]

24 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

How do you you know what the electricity is being used for? You can plug your car into a 13A socket.

BTW public charging already attracts VAT at the full rate.

They could make the electricity used for charging a car a different colour, like diesel.

[Guest]

Just now, Free At Last said:

They could make the electricity used for charging a car a different colour, like diesel.

 

But you can mix it with green Irish electricity and it looks just like normal electricity again.

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, 30801 said:

There might be less resistance to road pricing among people who are starting to drive now. They are increasingly using black box telemetry based insurance that's priced according to how they drive.

And of course soon cars will drive themselves which has to have telemetry as well.

 

I know what you mean but I still think there have to be ways to do this without having to record every mile undertaken, when and where.

 

There is the argument that if you're doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear, but it is the fear of unintended consequences, and yes I have a mobile phone and yes I do have the GPS on but it's my decision and its not being imposed.

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

There is the argument that if you're doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear, but it is the fear of unintended consequences, and yes I have a mobile phone and yes I do have the GPS on but it's my decision and its not being imposed.

 

Oh there's plenty to go wrong. Especially in countries where the government would be really interested in seeing where you went.

[Nearholmer]

56 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Congestion charging was about the lessening the pollution impact of lots of cars in a confined area - electric cars will not have that problem.

 

Its an interesting point, because with no air or noise pollution at the point of use, maybe congestion should be left to sort itself out. Build no more road capacity, just give people accurate real-time traffic information, and let them decide whether they want to spend ages gridlocked or whether they want to travel at a different time, or not at all. 

 

And, auto-impose speed limits in sensitive areas such as near homes, schools and cycle/pedestrian routes - cap the speed capability of the EV by telecontrol. Doing that would make "shared use spaces", cars, cyclists & pedestrians, a much more realistic prospect, because they become safe at somewhere around 10-15 mph, especially if the EVs have object-detection.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Nearholmer

[teaky]

45 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

It would be in addition to current VAT, I don't have all the answers but I do know that simply taxing the charging would be less expensive to set up than setting up a network to track a vehicle 24/7 not to mention the further erosion of the right to personal privacy in what I do and where I go.

I find Woodenhead's suggestion appealing.

 

Why make anything more complicated?  How about giving everyone an energy allowance and taxing any excess?

 

No complicated monitoring systems.  No concerns over tracking.  Downward pressure on excess mileage.  Encouragement to improve house insulation.  An incentive to use more efficient devices, appliances, vehicles etc.  Poorer citizens who perhaps don't have the option of working from home might not be penalised provided public transport was available.  (Extra thought required on that one perhaps.)

[Reorte]

48 minutes ago, Stanley Melrose said:

A couple of points that might be of interest.

 

There is a great deal of interest from insurance companies in tracking driver behaviour.  The EU declared that it was illegal to discriminate against women drivers by requiring insurance companies to stop offering premiums that reflected the fact that statistically women are safer drivers than men, i.e. men and women of the same driving experience and record have to be charged the same premium.  The industry response is to move to personally computed premiums based on driver performance - hence collecting data on every journey by every driver wishing to be insured.  That data is used to compute the premium and is entirely personal so bypasses any sexual discrimination.  I think it only a matter of time before such telemetry is mandatory.  In fact my all-new VW ID.3 is internet linked whenever I drive it.  This isn't for insurance purposes but so that VW can monitor the performance of their new product.

Exactly the sort of thing which would put me off buying such a car, and I find it extremely disturbing how normalised such intrusive technology is becoming.

[Nick C]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Congestion charging was about the lessening the pollution impact of lots of cars in a confined area - electric cars will not have that problem.

Electric cars produce plenty of pollution at the point of use - only half of the pollution from an IC car is from the tailpipe,  and the rest (brakes, tyres and road surface wear) is just the same from an EV.

 

Another issue with road pricing that's not been mentioned is that of rat running. If you start charging more to drive on the most congested roads, people will try to find a cheaper alternative by cutting through residential and rural roads,  making them in turn more congested and dangerous. 

[Jonboy]

3 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

How do you you know what the electricity is being used for? You can plug your car into a 13A socket.

BTW public charging already attracts VAT at the full rate.

now if only the technology was there to superimpose a digital signal over the ring main from car charger or the vehicle back to the smart meter with the consumption details...it could be called “driving consumption cost”, abbreviated to DCC for short...

[Kickstart]

5 hours ago, Neil said:

will any mourn it's loss like the end of steam on the mainline?

I will.

 

5 hours ago, Stanley Melrose said:

There is a great deal of interest from insurance companies in tracking driver behaviour.  The EU declared that it was illegal to discriminate against women drivers by requiring insurance companies to stop offering premiums that reflected the fact that statistically women are safer drivers than men, i.e. men and women of the same driving experience and record have to be charged the same premium.

As I understand it, on average women have more accidents per mile but on average drive less miles. Add into that mix the different average use patterns (ie, roads used, times of day travelled at, etc), and it is a minefield. But probably one they could use tracking to try and nail down more.

 

To be honest, not sure if insurance should be that specific.

 

4 hours ago, woodenhead said:

And of course soon cars will drive themselves which has to have telemetry as well.

 

Until a car can (fully legally) drive itself while I curl up for a snooze, or read a good book, I have little interest in any of the driver assist functions. For me they are likely to reduce the stimuli I rely on to stay aware. I find basic cruise control bad enough!

 

6 hours ago, 30801 said:

 

It's not really much of an issue. Your car will have a much better battery management system than your cheap drill. The battery in my electric toothbrush is wrecked and that's newer than the battery in my car which is not.

Possibly, but also a battery pack that is vastly more expensive and which I want to last far longer. Given my daily driver is 13 years old, we have a 30 year old fun car in the garage, and while I have a lot of bikes the newest is 23 years old (bought new), I want similar cost / service life balance for basic consumables.

 

All the best

 

Katy