Road Charging and Electric Vehicles...

[Nearholmer]

In many ways the neatest solution to powering transport from multiple fuel-sources, ideally all low-emission, is not battery-electric, but straight-electric, which is why, even as battery technology has advanced, battery-electric trains and trams have remained exceptional, while straight-electric trains and trams have continued to forge ahead.

 

So, how could that work for "free-roaming", as opposed to rail-guided, vehicles on roads? It obviously poses all sorts of interesting infrastructure challenges, but it is within finger-tip distance of being viable for large vehicles, HGVs and Coaches, on motorways and similarly structured roads, and especially once heavily automatically steered vehicles become ordinary it is possible to imagine it becoming viable for progressively smaller vehicles,  minibus size and downwards. The biggest technical challenge is almost certainly maintaining alignment of current collectors with on overhead contact net (one option is clearly the "bumper cars" system of a literal net). Of course, trolley-buses have been here before, from c1881.

 

One can imagine straight-electric being used on trunk routes, with battery for non-trunk use, although getting the balance right, having enough "off-grid" capacity to be useful, would take a bit of juggling.

 

If only Mr Tesla had fully (and safely!) realised his vision of wireless distribution of electrical power.

[PenrithBeacon]

Diesel, really?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, TheQ said:

As electric vehicles come in I can see them getting more relaxed about the odd ICU car going into town as there just won't be that many of them..

 

Very few people light up a pipe in a restaurant these days but I don't think people would be that relaxed about it

[PenrithBeacon]

The problem with trolleybuses is that if one broke down then all those coming up behind would be held up to. This also applies up there is a delay due to an accident, road works etc. This is why they were withdrawn and replaced by diesel buses. 

There is a design, in Germany I believe, for commercial vehicles to be powered by OHLE but I doubt  if it will be implemented.

[TheQ]

1 minute ago, PenrithBeacon said:

The problem with trolleybuses is that if one broke down then all those coming up behind would be held up to. This also applies up there is a delay due to an accident, road works etc. This is why they were withdrawn and replaced by diesel buses. 

There is a design, in Germany I believe, for commercial vehicles to be powered by OHLE but I doubt  if it will be implemented.

it would be  feasible just to fit  trolley busses with batteries just good enough for a couple of miles to bypass any problem on the main route.. much more feasible than long distance battery busses. 

 

Oh and yes diesel it's the logical choice..

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

The problem with trolleybuses is that if one broke down then all those coming up behind would be held up to. This also applies up there is a delay due to an accident, road works etc. This is why they were withdrawn and replaced by diesel buses. 

 

There was a design in I think China where each bus stop had small section of a sort of rigid OHLE. The bus took a quick slurp of power into a giant ultracapacitor which gave it enough range to get to the next stop and so on.

I don't know if they still have them or if they are all straight BEV busses now.

[PenrithBeacon]

3 minutes ago, TheQ said:

[...]

 

Oh and yes diesel it's the logical choice..

But a poor one for the health of your fellow citizens

[Reorte]

12 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

A question for the dyed in the wool, change is bad types on here:

 

how often do you drive, in a single unbroken journey over 300 Miles? That’s over 4 hours constant driving.

 

Do you take any notice of the advice to take regular breaks whilst driving to prevent fatigue? 
 

Speaking as a dyed in the wool, change is bad type - electric cars seem to be one of the few exceptions to that. You can get them with perfectly adequate range, and the only possible remaining concern would be whether it's possible to charge at the end of the journey, and even that's unlikely to be a common concern.

 

[TheQ]

5 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

But a poor one for the health of your fellow citizens

New Diesel cars have had particulate filters fitted for nearly 2 decades. and became mandatory in 2009 so that's not a problem. As for NOX some petrols now produce more than diesels, because of the tuning to avoid other nasties..

Edited November 19, 2020 by TheQ

[Joseph_Pestell]

7 minutes ago, TheQ said:

it would be  feasible just to fit  trolley busses with batteries just good enough for a couple of miles to bypass any problem on the main route.. much more feasible than long distance battery busses. 

 

Oh and yes diesel it's the logical choice..

 

Not just "feasible", many first generation trolleybuses had this capability. Easier these days with better battery technology.

[Reorte]

11 hours ago, zarniwhoop said:

I think that within 5 years (being optimistic) there will be a solution to lower emissions and decent daily range (might be batteries, but hopefully different from current lithium - I think the phrase is "burn, baby, burn" for lithium combustion, or the solution might be hydrogen).

 

Aluminium-air batteries have much greater energy density than lithium batteries (comparable with petrol I believe) and have been toyed with occasionally, but they're not terribly practical. But it does suggest that we're not at the limits of battery performance.

 

Hydrogen seems to keep coming and going as the next big thing. Do hope people get past the "hydrogen explodes" thing, influenced by the Hindenburg. Yes, it can, but it's less risky than petrol and we know how to handle that safely.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Reorte

[Joseph_Pestell]

7 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

There was a design in I think China where each bus stop had small section of a sort of rigid OHLE. The bus took a quick slurp of power into a giant ultracapacitor which gave it enough range to get to the next stop and so on.

I don't know if they still have them or if they are all straight BEV busses now.

 

Seville has the same for its trams. A great option where you don't want your historic city spoiled with wires and poles everywhere. Wish that they had done this in Manchester.

[Nearholmer]

19 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

There is a design, in Germany I believe, for commercial vehicles to be powered by OHLE but I doubt  if it will be implemented.

 

There is, and its been through proof-of concept trials, but having seen it I think it is up against the same problem that bedevils railway electrification on non-trunk routes: the high cost of the overhead contact system.

 

The system that Siemens used on the trials is railway-derived, and it looks awfully complex and finicky, especially for something that only needs to operate up to about 150kph and deliver relatively modest traction currents (by railway standards) per vehicle.

 

For both road and rail there is a crying need to develop less costly OCS, and it is particularly tough for road, because both poles of the system, line and neutral, need to be up in the air, whereas at least on rail the rails themselves provide a convenient neutral conductor. But, with a lot of clever German people, and a lot of clever Chinese people, on the task, I'm optimistic.

[Canal Digger]

In a country/ world with an ever increasing population "free-roaming" traffic is not at some point viable, the question is when is that point reached and what to do about it? Heavy freight is (apart from the jobs of those involved) fairly easy to consider, attach them together, give them their own roads and guide the wheels, powered by environmentally friendly system. Add a variation for comfortable, long distance passenger traffic. What could this system be called? Do you think I could patent this idea?

 

More seriously, in a sensible world if we could start with a 'clean sheet', is this the answer? If yes, then how to make that change? There would inevitably be many job losses (but many other jobs created) , lots of lives disrupted, the stops will always be too near/ too far away.

 

As Lincoln said "you can't please all of the people all of the time", so we have to learn to compromise

[PenrithBeacon]

12 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

... But, with a lot of clever German people, and a lot of clever Chinese people, on the task, I'm optimistic.

Wot about us clever British people?

Such a design needs not to be at all clever anyway, being limited to 60mph/100kph. It's little more than a tramway.

Edited November 19, 2020 by PenrithBeacon

[Nearholmer]

4 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Wot about us clever British people?

 

I fear that you will look in vain for really solid R&D round this in the UK - I might be wrong, but I don't think so.

[Reorte]

27 minutes ago, Canal Digger said:

In a country/ world with an ever increasing population "free-roaming" traffic is not at some point viable, the question is when is that point reached and what to do about it?

 

You're tinkering with the symptoms there... Although it's a political question no-one dares to touch whatever answer you come up with will only work for so long then start creaking, rinse and repeat if nothing changes with the fundamental cause of the problem. No-one's yet come up with an acceptable answer to it, alas that seems to scare them off even trying to think of one.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Reorte

[black and decker boy]

45 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Seville has the same for its trams. A great option where you don't want your historic city spoiled with wires and poles everywhere. Wish that they had done this in Manchester.

An the new extensions to Midland Metro in Birmingham city centre

[black and decker boy]

Further development for off-road vehicles. HS2 in particular are demanding use of such equipment on their contracts and the Clean Air Zones in city centres essentially forces construction to move away from red diesel.

 

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2020/11/18/jcb-launches-electric-telehandler-and-dumper/

[Kickstart]

It would seem likely that wireless charging of batteries of vehicles under way is possible. Probably a lot easier to implement than a full network of conventional plug in charging stations on all side streets.

 

All the best

 

Jaty

[PenrithBeacon]

57 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

I fear that you will look in vain for really solid R&D round this in the UK - I might be wrong, but I don't think so.

Don't think it needs much in the way of R&D, but I'm not at all sure it's the solution to powering heavy commercial vehicles as it's pretty inflexible. 

 

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

The problem with trolleybuses is that if one broke down then all those coming up behind would be held up to. This also applies up there is a delay due to an accident, road works etc. This is why they were withdrawn and replaced by diesel buses. 

There is a design, in Germany I believe, for commercial vehicles to be powered by OHLE but I doubt  if it will be implemented.

I used to travel to school on trolley buses in London, and many times there would be one at the side of the road broken down for whatever reason, the conductor just used to unhook the collector arm and every other bus just drove past......no issues there.

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

I fear that you will look in vain for really solid R&D round this in the UK - I might be wrong, but I don't think so.

For 35 years I worked at the largest vehicle manufacturer’s R&E Centre in the U.K.......yes you are wrong. 

 

[Nearholmer]

Tantalising - are you at liberty to say more?

[boxbrownie]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Tantalising - are you at liberty to say more?

Not quite sure what else there is to say?

 

It was in Essex.....