Road Charging and Electric Vehicles...

[Pete the Elaner]

7 minutes ago, raymw said:

The encouragement by governments to folk buying electric cars, has very little in connection with climate change, and climate change is not the real problem. There are other solutions available. But it is part of the trend to prevent private ownership, and obviously gives more control of the population's behavior. Iiirc, fuel tax in UK is about 29 billion gbp /annum. That, and much more will be recovered via electric vehicles, either by charging for miles driven, or electrical charging tariffs. The fun days are over

 

That makes no sense.

Public ownership is good because it makes people feel better. Any politician who has done that will win votes, which will either keep them in their job or get them further from where they currently are.

Preventing private ownership is therefore a vote-loser. What politician wants that?

I don't suppose they are really bothered about climate change either. What they are bothered about is being seen to care about it.

[Reorte]

27 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

The "I really don't like it and it'll make me very unhappy" seems more like an opinion than a reason.

 

"It'll make me very unhappy" is a fact rather than an opinion (note that I'm speaking very generically here - I actually regard electric cars as a  positive for the future, and there's very little I think that about!) Of course like any perceived fact it might turn out to be one I'm mistaken about, but all decisions are made based on some effort of predicting their likely outcome. It's just that what should be means to an end are often treated as the end.

 

The reason I'd claim it's a reason is because, simply, and from the individual perspective, if something makes me happier it's improved the world and should be done, and if it has the opposite effect it's degraded the world and shouldn't be done. If it does neither then there's no reason to care one way or the other whether or not it happens. Now that's just me, in a democratic country you need to work out the net effect over the entire population, who will often have completely opposite reactions to the same thing (and consideration for the rest of the world and the future), but ultimately I see it as the only thing that really does matter.

 

Mental health is massively important, if you're happy with your life then you've achieved everything that it makes sense to achieve (just as long as you've not got there by pushing others down - the aggregate and consideration for the rest factors).

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, rocor said:

If the cost of converting an existing good condition vehicle to electric, without breaking the bank, could be attained, that would be a major plus from a sustainability view point.

 

There's a place in Swindon developing drop-in conversion kits.

Their first one is for a Mini and it's not cheap but it shows the way things can go.

 

https://swindonpowertrain.com/documents/Classic_Mini_Kit.pdf

[boxbrownie]

12 minutes ago, 30801 said:

 

There's a place in Swindon developing drop-in conversion kits.

Their first one is for a Mini and it's not cheap but it shows the way things can go.

 

https://swindonpowertrain.com/documents/Classic_Mini_Kit.pdf

Oh I like that......clever thinking.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Oh I like that......clever thinking.

 

Here's a video of it.

 

 

[Reorte]

Rather questionable registration plate!

[rocor]

4 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Rather questionable registration plate!

 

Car Pervert, that is Jonny  Smith's Youtube channel. He seems to get everywhere on the web car related these days.

[boxbrownie]

8 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Rather questionable registration plate!

For a 1983 vehicle it is indeed.......also note the very high centre tunnel, housing maybe batteries or control system?

 

Still like it though....

[Guest]

Just now, boxbrownie said:

For a 1983 vehicle it is indeed.......also note the very high centre tunnel, housing maybe batteries or control system?

 

It's the battery. In a big T shape going under the back seat.

[rocor]

Here is another Jonny Smith presented youtube, showing an electric version of a classic car.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3KmcAO5Xmc

[Chrisr40]

I could see a big market for manufacturers selling retro bodied cars on standard-ish underpinnings.

Wouldn't it be good to have a mk1 escort that didnt rust for example. All the style of old cars and the benefits of new tech...that might be enough to address some peoples concerns (including mine ) that electric cars are more like appliances than something humans genuinely have a relationship with. I know I miss some of my old cars and I cant say that about any of the fridges or food mixers I have binned over the years.

[Pete the Elaner]

8 minutes ago, Chrisr40 said:

I could see a big market for manufacturers selling retro bodied cars on standard-ish underpinnings.

Wouldn't it be good to have a mk1 escort that didnt rust for example. All the style of old cars and the benefits of new tech...that might be enough to address some peoples concerns (including mine ) that electric cars are more like appliances than something humans genuinely have a relationship with. I know I miss some of my old cars and I cant say that about any of the fridges or food mixers I have binned over the years.

I can't see that simply because car design evolves for a reason, often due to safety requirements.

Cars are much stronger now than they used to be. As each manufacturer competes on this front, regulations become more demanding.

[Chrisr40]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

can't see that simply because car design evolves for a reason, often due to safety requirements.

Cars are much stronger now than they used to be. As each manufacturer competes on this front, regulations become more demanding.

Understood but we have the tech to make them safer and presumably less intrusively to the original styling  plus there are heritage shells for minis and fords still being manufactured today

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by Chrisr40

[Gibbo675]

5 hours ago, Reorte said:

Considering the last few posts I do think there's often a problem where the advocates for change are often far too quick to dismiss the negative impact on others. Even when they truly believe it's for the better they do need to acknowledge the genuine negatives on some - and even "I really don't like it and it'll make me very unhappy" with no material change is a pretty serious negative, and appreciate that they are actually hurting people. That might not be enough to stop the change going through but I do get rather sick of hearing "It's good, so if you don't like it that's your problem and you should learn to deal with it." To me that's just a way of ignoring the fact you're hurting someone, that even if you are utterly convinced that whatever it is needs doing there are aspects of it that are a necessary evil. But it's easier to deal with pushing a change through if you can absolve yourself of any guilt, because it's not your fault or problem they're hurt by it...

Hi Reorte,

 

The problem that you are dealing with is that the mask wearers of this world seem to think that, paying extra road tax, paying extra for a car that can only go 300 miles before the battery runs out of charge, worrying about the exchequer losing out on fuel duty because of implementation of their own policies and having reduced access to roam about the face of the earth at will while Serco / Lockheed Martin / NSA follow your every move is all somehow a good thing.

 

At the rate lockdowns are going walking to shops is going to be subject to a taxable charge along with a health check never mind using a car.

 

Gibbo.

[Neil]

1 hour ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Reorte,

 

The problem that you are dealing with is that the mask wearers of this world seem to think that, paying extra road tax, paying extra for a car that can only go 300 miles before the battery runs out of charge, worrying about the exchequer losing out on fuel duty because of implementation of their own policies and having reduced access to roam about the face of the earth at will while Serco / Lockheed Martin / NSA follow your every move is all somehow a good thing.

 

At the rate lockdowns are going walking to shops is going to be subject to a taxable charge along with a health check never mind using a car.

 

Gibbo.

 

Pretty much every political decision made has this element of individual vs collective good embedded somewhere in it. 

[black and decker boy]

A question for the dyed in the wool, change is bad types on here:

 

how often do you drive, in a single unbroken journey over 300 Miles? That’s over 4 hours constant driving.

 

Do you take any notice of the advice to take regular breaks whilst driving to prevent fatigue? 
 

Edited November 18, 2020 by black and decker boy
Typo

[Jonboy]

For me it’s a once a month trip to the office at 130 miles each way(following employer relocation) . Easily drivable in a single stint each way, but the mileage is right on the limit of equivalent cost cars to my current petrol car. As the vast majority of the journey is/or becoming smart motorway I would be reluctant to pay fuel roulette...

 

public transport takes almost double the time each way via 4 trains each direction, meaning I would only have three workable hours instead of 6 or 7 with the team on each trip.

we also live in a flat with parking spaces away from the the block.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

At the rate lockdowns are going walking to shops is going to be subject to a taxable charge along with a health check never mind using a car.

 

Thing is when you have a huge sin tax and everyone stops sinning they're going to have to tax you a grand every year for walking to the shops.

[Canal Digger]

A few random points IMHO:

1. At least most of the points made here are valid and are not meant to be offensive although some are taking it so.
2. There is a difference between electric power for cars and technology such as tracking, either are possible with or without the other.
3. There has been little discussion [anywhere that I have seen] on vehicles where electric power is not viable (eg towing trailers/ caravans/ boats). I want to see an electric powered fire engine!
4. With planning electric cars can go very long distances (I can't find the story now, but a couple took one through Turkey and beyond [Turkestan?] by plugging into wherever they could)

I speak as someone who has a foot in several camps having an:

1. Electric car for local use (the age of it means limited range), first choice for SWMBO.
2. An aging large estate car for long distance and/ or large loads (when Covid permits).
3. A 4x4 for towing/ hard work (when Covid permits).

sorry for all of the brackets

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Canal Digger said:

 

1. There has been little discussion [anywhere that I have seen] on vehicles where electric power is not viable (eg towing trailers/ caravans/ boats). I want to see an electric powered fire engine!
2. With planning electric cars can go very long distances (I can't find the story now, but a couple took one through Turkey and beyond [Turkestan?] by plugging into wherever they could)

 

Electric power is perfectly viable for towing. What's less viable is that a lot of the manufacturers haven't type-approved tow bars and you have naff all chance of getting near to a charge point with a caravan attached. If you want to tow you'll need a Tesla as you'll be able to straddle a couple of Supercharger bays without blocking all of them and getting stabbed.

 

It was a stock 30kWh Leaf doing the Mongol Rally. https://www.thedrive.com/article/14305/off-road-nissan-leaf-sets-record-at-mongol-rally

 

[Nearholmer]

54 minutes ago, Canal Digger said:

I want to see an electric powered fire engine!

 

Rosenbauer have started making an electric-heavy hybrid fire engines, and have a concept vehicle that is all-electric, although it seems to be aimed at logistical support (lighting, comms., gear-lugging etc) rather than being a "pumps and ladders" job.

 

As for towing: would one of London Underground's battery-electric engineering train locos suit Sir's needs?

[zarniwhoop]

1 hour ago, black and decker boy said:

A question for the dyed in the wool, change is bad types on here:

 

how often do you drive, in a single unbroken journey over 300 Miles? That’s over 4 hours constant driving.

 

Do you take any notice of the advice to take regular breaks whilst driving to prevent fatigue? 
 

For some time, I have rarely driven for that sort of distance, and when i did I had to estimate no more than 50mph average in this country (because of the general congestion on our motorways for the past 5+ years). but as an insulin=dependant diabetic I have to stop every 2 hours so that I can test. I'm hopeful of getting back towards daytime hours so that it is worth me travelling,but clearly that isn't going to happen during the pandemic.

 

But when I went away on holidays it was normal to drive all day (e.g. from here to Burgundy on the first day, or to Cumbria or North Wales.

 

However, what really annoys  me is the current speeded move towards electric cars. I'd hoped to change my own car (a second series Merc A-class) this year after being able to see their current "small" cars (I need internal height, and a comparatively high seat because of my injuries, and a left-foot throttle adaptation ) but clearly that can't happen at the moment. I think that within 5 years (being optimistic) there will be a solution to lower emissions and decent daily range (might be batteries, but hopefully different from current lithium - I think the phrase is "burn, baby, burn" for lithium combustion, or the solution might be hydrogen). But at the moment I think the move to electric cars is like the railway fever of the 1840s and there will be a lot of pain along the way, including the annoyance to pedestrians when cables are run across pavements,

 

So for me, charging per mile is going to make minimal difference in itself, but might push up the prices of all goods depending on how it is implemented. Am I allowed to say that I have negative confidence in our governing party for drawing up sensible legislation, or is that too political ?

 

[PenrithBeacon]

I don't think battery electric is going to be viable for commercial vehicles, but there seems to be moves afoot for hydrogen is this class of vehicles. Personally would prefer hydrogen to electric and renewable power from wind etc will make this a good choice.

[black and decker boy]

7 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I don't think battery electric is going to be viable for commercial vehicles, but there seems to be moves afoot for hydrogen is this class of vehicles. Personally would prefer hydrogen to electric and renewable power from wind etc will make this a good choice.

I believe R&D continues into hydrogen fuel cell powered cars and some countries believe it will be the long term solution.

 

However, mass use of hydrogen, for private cars, buses and trains needs huge investment in manufacturing, distribution & storage / point of sale infrastructure 

 

in that sense, it’s no different to BEVs

 

Hopefully these new technologies continue to develop, range gets better and become more affordable.

 

There should be no need for the current angst, the ban on new sales is 9 years away and there is no plan to ban their use at that point.
 

However, low emission zones such as London will become far more common across other towns & cities to combat the illegal & hazardous levels of air pollution and congestion charging will sit alongside those. Private ICU cars will therefore become more restricted in their use.

 

Our tax regime will adapt over time (it never diminishes). The crux of the issue is making sure that average use isn’t penalised (thus not becoming a poll tax on wheels protest).

[TheQ]

I've been thinking on the next car, due in 2 years or so.. I've decided it's likely to be diesel,  I rarely want to go into a city, even working in Norwich now, I'm outside of any likely emission Zone.

I would love to go electric,  I've converted my Motorboat to Diesel Electric, which for the majority of journeys only runs on electric charged by solar panels.. But for the moment Electric cars don't do what I want

 

Due to commercials not yet being forced to go electric  or anything else, it's likely Diesel fuel will be available longer and more commonly in the future.

 I tow occasionally, the Layout  / general purpose trailer and the moving of Sailing boats.

Whilst I have the diesel landrover, which is the main towing vehicle,  I can see a time when we may have to go down to one vehicle.

 

As an aside I only need to drive 300 miles + about 4 times a year, and yes I do need to take more breaks than I used to. 600 miles in a day with just a splash and dash are long gone..

 

Both the train and hiring of cars are uneconomic and extremely time consuming 

 

As electric vehicles come in I can see them getting more relaxed about the odd ICU car going into town as there just won't be that many of them..