Are Electric Scooters Road Legal or Not!?

[Nearholmer]

I think that must be how it’s done, because some of the places where I see small herds of them waiting for users don’t have any infrastructure except a sign-board.

[Bernard Lamb]

44 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

It isn't quite as simple as that.

 

In Milton Keynes we have a massive network of "shared use paths", on which you can walk and cycle  and ride an electric bike and, for the duration of the trial, use an e-scooter. 

 

I think the same may apply in the other trial cities.

 

So far, the take-up of the trial seems pretty un-enthusiastic. I use the paths a lot and barely see one of the trial hire-scooters in use (lots parked, and the odd one apparently abandoned). But, I do see a lot of people riding their own e-scooters, and "hover boards", and e-bikes, and an illlegal  on these paths form of e-bike that is actually classed as a moped, and electric wheelchairs, and mobility scooters, and autonomous delivery robots.

 

All these e-things are OK when conducted by sensible people (or sensible computers in the case of the robots), but become a ruddy nuisance when conducted by thoughtless twerps, but the same is true of bicycles.

 

On a conventional city-street pavement they would be a disaster, as indeed are ordinary bikes and non-powered scooters. On a conventional busy road, suicidal, partly because the wheel are too small to ride over potholes without pitching people off.

 

All in all, I think an e-assisted-bike is a better option from a safety and practicality standpoint if you aren't up to proper pedaling, and wonder if the scooters will be a bit of a flash in the pan.

 

A key issue BTW with all e-things for use on shared paths is the power rating. IIRC e-bikes can legally provide 250W to supplement the pedaling, and that is actually a fair bit of power - an ordinarily fit person, rather than an athlete, can only sustain c175W for a long period. So, for my money, e-things need to be no more than about 200W, to avoid  "speeding".

 

 

On that basis no motor car needs an engine larger than about 800cc.

E bikes are limited to just over 15mph. The wattage can be adjusted to compensate for the conditions. however a fit cyclist can still get them up to over 30mph with the motor not in use. Scooters are limited under all conditions, it just depends at what level the speed control is set.

Scooters seem to work well in a mixed environment in the Olympic Park.

I fancy one of the ball type machines.

Bernard

[malcolmt]

I’ve been a frequent escooter user, although not so much this summer with all the Covid-19 restrictions.  Great fun!  Here escooters are viewed as a last mile solution and are extremely popular. Generally ridden everywhere. 
 

Malcolm 

Calgary, Alberta 

[Nearholmer]

19 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

On that basis no motor car needs an engine larger than about 800cc.

 

Well, yes, in fact, if they were to be driven on shared-use paths, as e-bikes can be, then about 100cc would probably be more than adequate.

 

E-bike ratings are fine on "the open road", its in the shared environment that I doubt the wisdom of the power they have. 

[Ohmisterporter]

Are e-scooters, bicycles, and hoverboards exempt from carrying any kind of warning device? I ask as a pedestrian who was almost hit by a silent bike being ridden behind me at speed on a shared path (Morecambe promenade). When I was a kid we would not think of going out on our bikes without having a bell fitted (to the bike). Not so much bothered about being stopped by a bobby as hearing him report us to our parents. How times have changed.

 

Anybody remember the old "Knock, knock" joke?

[Nearholmer]

It’s a bit strange: SFAI understand, a pedal cycle has to be fitted with a bell or the like when sold new, but I don’t believe there is any legal requirement of any kind relating to there being a bell on a pedal cycle “in use” in England, Scotland or Wales (there are in other countries, i think including oddly Northern Ireland). I think the law used to require a bell to be fitted at all times up to c2000, and I have no idea how it got changed.
 

Motor vehicles are subject to “construction and use” regulations, pedal cycles only to “construction” regulations, and very, very limited “In use” requirements around brakes, lights and reflectors.

 

You may remember a very prominent legal case, where a guy riding a “fixie” hit and caused the death of a woman in London. IIRC the absence of brakes (not uncommon on a ‘fixie’) on his bike caused a lot of discussion, but wasn’t illegal, but, also from memory he was found guilty of something like ‘causing death by reckless behaviour’.
 

It is a bit strange!

 

 

Edited to correct the bit about “in use” requirements slightly.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Nearholmer

[petethemole]

12 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It’s a bit strange: SFAI understand, a pedal cycle has to be fitted with a bell or the like when sold new, but I don’t believe there is any legal requirement of any kind relating to the condition of a pedal cycle “in use”.  I think the law used to require a bell to be fitted at all times up to c2000, and I have no idea how it got changed.
 

Motor vehicles are subject to “construction and use” regulations, pedal cycles only to “construction” regulations.

 

You may remember a very prominent legal case, where a guy riding a “fixie” hit and caused the death of a woman in London. IIRC the absence of brakes (not uncommon on a ‘fixie’) on his bike caused a lot of discussion, but wasn’t illegal, but, also from memory he was found guilty of something like ‘causing death by reckless behaviour’.
 

It is a bit strange!

The charge was "wanton and furious riding", an offence dating back to the 19th century when groups of young men on bikes (mostly 'ordinaries') were perceived as a menace due to their speed and behaviour.  I believe it also applies to horse riding.

[Pete the Elaner]

55 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It’s a bit strange: SFAI understand, a pedal cycle has to be fitted with a bell or the like when sold new, but I don’t believe there is any legal requirement of any kind relating to the condition of a pedal cycle “in use” in England, Scotland or Wales (there are in other countries, including oddly Northern Ireland). I think the law used to require a bell to be fitted at all times up to c2000, and I have no idea how it got changed.
 

Motor vehicles are subject to “construction and use” regulations, pedal cycles only to “construction” regulations, other than in respect of lights and reflectors.

 

You may remember a very prominent legal case, where a guy riding a “fixie” hit and caused the death of a woman in London. IIRC the absence of brakes (not uncommon on a ‘fixie’) on his bike caused a lot of discussion, but wasn’t illegal, but, also from memory he was found guilty of something like ‘causing death by reckless behaviour’.

 

 

Bike regs are a bit strange. Some fixie riders will claim that they can slow just as effectively by retardation, but this is far from true. A brake will work better & by correctly adjusting your weight distribution, the best braking will be performed with the rear wheel in the air. How can pedal retardation possibly compete with that?

 

Bike bells are another item which perplex me. Most are way too feeble to be of any use.

On the road, a driver with their window closed will only hear it when they are way too close. Off road, if you are approaching a pedestrian from behind with the wind in the wrong direction, they will not hear it from any useful distance. When the rider is finally close enough, for a feeble ding to be heard, the walker (if they are not wearing headphones) will firstly wonder what that is, then look around, possible both ways before they see the cyclist then decide which way to move aside. This sounds trivial, but it really is too much to do in the limited time.

I prefer to shout something like 'keep left please'. I can comfortably shout louder than a bell & the pedestrian does not have to look around or think. I have thanked another rider for doing just this while I have been out running.

 

An E-scooter can get around this by having a powered horn. It doesn't need to be too loud but anything would be better than a bike bell.

[Nearholmer]

We had a whole, long thread on here a while back about the practicalities and etiquette of cycling on shared-use paths, and it is a fraught topic.

 

The thing that always ‘gets’ me is that when you sound your bell, any group of people walking together, chatting away, filling the whole path, will always dither about for ages, some wanting to move left, some to move right, then will randomly scatter in all directions. I now expect groups to do that, so tend to slow down, but go for the middle of the path.

[Pete the Elaner]

14 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

The thing that always ‘gets’ me is that when you sound your bell, any group of people walking together, chatting away, filling the whole path, will always dither about for ages, some wanting to move left, some to move right, then will randomly scatter in all directions. I now expect groups to do that, so tend to slow down, but go for the middle of the path.

 

They seem to do that when I shout 'please keep left' too: some to the left, others hesitate then randomly decide which way to go. I find it quite amusing & usually end up having a giggle with them.

The only ones who annoyed me recently were a couple of women standing at the end of a redway between 2 posts designed to stop cars using it. They could have stood anywhere but chose the pinch point.

That's all fair enough because we all do things which on reflection, we could have thought through better.

The annoying part was that they didn't acknowledge how thoughtless they were being.

[Hal Nail]

On the subject of e scooters, the BBC reported about a couple of weeks ago they are likely to be made legal shortly as they are seen as a solution to the reduction in public transport capacity due to covid distancing.

[ejstubbs]

13 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

IIRC the absence of brakes (not uncommon on a ‘fixie’) on his bike caused a lot of discussion, but wasn’t illegal, but, also from memory he was found guilty of something like ‘causing death by reckless behaviour’.

 

He didn't have a front brake, which most certainly was illegal, and much was made of it in his trial.  You can in theory brake the rear wheel of a fixie simply by using the pedals, though it takes rather more skill and practice than using a conventional brake.  This seems to be regarded as an acceptable alternative to a conventional rear brake for road use, but not having a front brake is definitely not legal.

 

Charlie Alliston was convicted of "causing bodily harm by wanton or furious driving" under the Offences Against the Person Act 1861.  I think I'm right in saying that the prosecution argued that the illegal absence of a front brake on his bike was a contributory factor/evidence of recklessness.  (Probably along with his decidedly ill-chosen posts on social media about his exploits on two wheels both prior to the day he collided with and killed Kim Briggs, and particularly his remarks about her part in the incident immediately subsequently.)

 

AIUI it wasn't worth prosecuting him for the actual offence of not having a front brake simply because the other charge he was facing was so much more serious.

Edited October 7, 2020 by ejstubbs

[ejstubbs]

13 hours ago, petethemole said:

The charge was "wanton and furious riding", an offence dating back to the 19th century when groups of young men on bikes (mostly 'ordinaries') were perceived as a menace due to their speed and behaviour.  I believe it also applies to horse riding.

 

Nope, the wording of the act specifically states: "Whosoever, having the charge of any carriage or vehicle..."  That excludes riding a horse, but it does include driving a motor vehicle as well as riding a bicycle - a bicycle being regarded as a "carriage" in UK law*.  The offence is frequently but inaccurately referred to as "furious riding" - likely because it's pretty much the only equivalent to "driving without due care" or "dangerous driving" which can actually be applied to a cyclist (the other offences mentioned being specifically applicable only to drivers of motor vehicles).

 

* Hence why people riding bikes are supposed to use the carriageway part of the road rather than the footway (which is the correct legal term for what most people in the UK call the "pavement").  The carriageway and the footway together constitute the road, along with any verges maintained by the responsible authority - hence the old saying "the road extends from 'edge to 'edge".  And anyone making use of the road regardless of their method of travel, including on foot, is a road user.

Edited October 7, 2020 by ejstubbs

[melmerby]

When I first started cycling as a kid, bells on bike were completely different to the feeble one-ding inadequate items now in common use.

When you operated the lever some weights whizzed around inside a large bell hitting it continuously giving out a sort of r-r-r-ring, these days it is just "ding" and that's it

[melmerby]

Offences Against the Person Act 1861.

Section 35

 

Drivers of carriages injuring persons by furious driving.

Whosoever, having the charge of any carriage or vehicle, shall by wanton or furious driving or racing, or other wilful misconduct, or by wilful neglect, do or cause to be done any bodily harm to any person whatsoever, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be imprisoned for any term not exceeding two years, . . .

 

 

[big jim]

9 hours ago, Ray Von said:

How can this eBay seller make the claims they do?

 

I would hazard a guess at its limited to 12mph max therefore as pointed out it’s a power assisted pushbike, when you reach 12 mph power is cut to the motor, they are designed to assist the rider on hills and standing starts 

 

my lad has just turned 16 and has got his first motorbike (being delivered tomorrow) and can only have a 50cc, I looked at Proper electric Motorbikes for him and again you can get them that will do 30mph max but they like a normal motorbike require, mot, helmet, CBT training unlike the glorified bike above 

[ejstubbs]

14 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

E-bike ratings are fine on "the open road", its in the shared environment that I doubt the wisdom of the power they have. 

 

As has been mentioned before, the power potentially available from the assistance motor doesn't really contribute much to dangerous riding given that it cuts out at 25kmph (just a tad over 15mph).  That's assuming that it's a road-legal e-bike, technically termed an Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle or EAPC.  Even on my fat-tyred eMTB it's not at all difficult to pedal along at 15mph or more on the flat and I often hear the motor "hunting" - providing assistance and then cutting out - when my speed is fluctuating around the cutoff point.  That 250W does come in handy providing useful assistance up steep hills at under 25kmph, but the assistance isn't even available to the rider when bowling along downhill at (an easily achievable) 30mph - in those circumstances it's just "a bike" (though rather heavier than most non-assisted bikes).

 

14 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

if they were to be driven on shared-use paths, as e-bikes can be, then about 100cc would probably be more than adequate.

 

Er, I think your numbers are way off.  The 100cc bike I took my motorcycle test one was advertised as being capable of over 70mph, and most owners of decent examples would reckon it was good for at least 60mph.  I don't think the published specification ever mentioned its peak power output but it was definitely significantly more than ⅓hp, which the non-metric equivalent of the 250W that EAPCs are limited to.

Edited October 7, 2020 by ejstubbs

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, ejstubbs said:

 

 

 

 

Er, I think your numbers are way off.  The 100cc bike I took my motorcycle test one was advertised as being capable of over 70mph, and most owners of decent examples would reckon it was good for at least 60mph.  I don't think the specification ever mentioned 

its peak power output but it was definitely significantly more than ⅓hp, which the 250W that EAPCs are limited to.

Car?

[John M Upton]

Unfortunately like most inventions, they find their way quickly into the hands of fools.  Already seen one prize twerp riding one down the aisle on board a train and them zooming at speed along station platforms has become an increasing occurence.

 

They are also popular as a swift runabout for Bognor and Littlehampton's dedicated army of illegal drug couriers....

[Nearholmer]

7 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

Er, I think your numbers are way off.  The 100cc bike I took my motorcycle test one was advertised as being capable of over

You need to read a little more closely. I was, not seriously, advocating a 100cc car, for driving on shared-use paths.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Bernard Lamb]

14 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Well, yes, in fact, if they were to be driven on shared-use paths, as e-bikes can be, then about 100cc would probably be more than adequate.

 

E-bike ratings are fine on "the open road", its in the shared environment that I doubt the wisdom of the power they have. 

I reckon 100 watts rather than 100cc for use on shared paths would be adequate. There is a case for electronically blocking the use of more powerful machines outside of areas such as the MK Redways and the QE11 Park. Canal tow paths are another place that would benefit from a speed restriction. 

As is often the case with new technology the law lags behind the reality.

Bernard

[Nearholmer]

To repeat, I was jokingly advocating a 100cc car for use on shared paths, but, yes, for e-bikes in a shared-path environment, 100 to 150W would be enough to give a person who can only pedal weakly, maybe 100 to 150W themselves, the boost they need to get up hills at better than snail's pace, by bringing the total power (person+motor) up to the power of a typical adult (200 to 300W for short periods).

 

Might be a bit of a complicated (lots of accurate GPS etc) to make "power limiting on shared paths" work in practice, though, so we will probably all remain reliant on people not conducting themselves "wantonly and furiously", whatever and wherever they are riding.

 

The happy fact is, of course, that for all these worries, injurious collisions between cyclists or scooterists (e-powered or not) and pedestrians are phenomenally rare so far, which is why the very few that do happen tend to become headline news.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Kickstart]

10 hours ago, big jim said:

my lad has just turned 16 and has got his first motorbike (being delivered tomorrow) and can only have a 50cc, I looked at Proper electric Motorbikes for him and again you can get them that will do 30mph max but they like a normal motorbike require, mot, helmet, CBT training unlike the glorified bike above 

Mooed rules have evolved. Now they are meant to be limited to 45kmh, and as the licence groups have changed over the years the grandfather rights that allowed 16 year olds to legally ride pre 1977 unrestricted mopeds no longer apply. 

 

10 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

Er, I think your numbers are way off.  The 100cc bike I took my motorcycle test one was advertised as being capable of over 70mph, and most owners of decent examples would reckon it was good for at least 60mph.  I don't think the published specification ever mentioned its peak power output but it was definitely significantly more than ⅓hp, which the non-metric equivalent of the 250W that EAPCs are limited to.

Yamaha RXS100? Listed as 72mph, and with 12.2hp

 

All the best

 

Katy

[PenrithBeacon]

On one of my very rare visits to the local town centre shops somebody was riding one of these things far too quickly through the throng. Dangerous I thought.

Personally I think they need to be regulated and equipped with flashing lights to make them visible. It would also help if the users were obliged to wear helmets and at least one item of hi-viz.

[big jim]

3 minutes ago, Kickstart said:

Mooed rules have evolved. Now they are meant to be limited to 45kmh, and as the licence groups have changed over the years the grandfather rights that allowed 16 year olds to legally ride pre 1977 unrestricted mopeds no longer apply. 

 

we only noticed the 50cc rule when looking for a bike, we had been looking at 125cc but then had to narrow the search down 

 

I won’t lie in saying I’m worried sick about him having a motorbike, especially one limited to 30mph, he’s just started an apprenticeship at a butchers that’s 10 mile from home in Audlem, the road there is a bit twisty but quite fast in places and I’m worried about him pootling along at 30mph with cars travelling somewhat faster behind him and catching up On the bends

 

at least with a 125 you can do that little bit quicker (Up to 60mph) to keep up with traffic flow which is probably around the 45mph mark