What locomotive have I just bought (and what can be done with it)??

[Il Grifone]

I have one I converted to EM with Hambling's 18mm wheels*, which shows how long ago I did it! I still need to fit her with decent pickups and sort out the awful paint job I did. It was supposed to be Southern green as A 337 (other numbers are available - she never got one). Years later I found out she should be black!

 

* Like Romford these suffer from an excess of spokes, but I think 16 spokes is correct for an R1. I must count them.

[Il Grifone]

We appear to have lost the edit function in the update, so....

 

Yes 16 spokes. I have a long term (i.e. this year, next year... never) project to do one of these:

 

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.ipernity.com%2F133%2F01%2F91%2F26520191.e1426dce.640.jpg%3Fr2&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ipernity.com%2Fdoc%2Fphilsutters%2F26520191&tbnid=A3c5zxD-9FjfHM&vet=12ahUKEwjh6s-DgpPsAhWM16QKHQM3AYoQMygKegUIARCwAQ..i&docid=3M8Qt3IJWojl-M&w=640&h=415&q=R1 class 0-6-0T&client=firefox-b-d&ved=2ahUKEwjh6s-DgpPsAhWM16QKHQM3AYoQMygKegUIARCwAQ

[Il Grifone]

I forgot (a common failing these days!) to mention that the correct buffers are available from Wrenngalore on eBay. They are rather expensive however, so the Tri-ang ones are probably a good substitute. They look a bit more like the real thing as well.

[LMS Bess]

Wonderful. Bookmarking this, thanks everyone. 

 

I can report that nothing is going on with the motor, so I'm going to try and decog it and see about some of the patch up work suggested. 

[Hroth]

9 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

We appear to have lost the edit function in the update, so....

 

Its in the three dots at the top of your post.

 

It should also say Edit to the left of the dots...

 

[The Johnster]

The HD R1 is not the most hi-fi model ever produced, and is very much RTR of it's time, but is not far off scale size and can be worked up into a model acceptable for use on a modern layout among current RTR if you want an R1, and AFAIK there is no alternative other than scratchbuilding.  Depending on how far you are prepared to push the working up, even cab details might be possible but there'll be nothing left of the original chassis!  You thus cannot really compare it to Smokey Joe, which only ever gets worked up into freelance industrials and is never convincing even then, because Smokey Joe is so far out of scale and proportion for a Neilson pug as to be beyond improvement; you are better off kit or scratchbuilding.

 

I don't want to get into the pointless semantics of the difference between a model and a toy, but I think nonetheless that the R1 was a reasonable attempt at an RTR model in it's day, and that Smokey Joe has never been more than a toy,

[LMS Bess]

I've removed the motor but will keep all parts in a Ziploc bag in case I want to try fixing in future.

 

I've been digging and it looks as though these were used to shunt boat train carriages in the siding at Folkestone Harbour (plus banking carriages uphill away from said harbour in threes). The harbour itself is a bit of a monster but the carriage sidings look like they might make a nice simple switching puzzle project with SR carriages, and they're right next to the water so could be some scenic fun. 

 

Mind you the pier itself at Folkestone is quite tempting for a switch puzzle but I can't find any trackplan better than a fuzzy OS map scan. Any good sources for Folkestone? 

 

Can I throw in another Q about colour? This Southern Green I keep hearing about, did they paint these locos that colour in the 30s before grouping or were they just black? Is there an available acrylic paint that's a good match for that shade?

[Il Grifone]

The track plan is here but it is rather dated. I have seen someting more recent but can't find it at present. Some changes were made to the platforms.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.07827&lon=1.18747&layers=168&b=4

 

These locomotives were painted black AFAIK from grouping onwards. The numbers were in the Format A xxx (e.g. A 337) up to about 1930 and then 1xxx (1337). from nationalisation apart from a short period when S 1xxx (S 1337) was used it became 31xxx (31337). It would have taken several years for these changes to take place of course. As always it's best to work from photographs.

 

It's very unlikely they ever carried the 'ferret and dartboard' as depicted on the model. The prototypes were all scrapped within months of its release.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Il Grifone

[LMS Bess]

Aha! Awesome. Just the sort of map I was looking for. Cheers!

 

In terms of the RTR paint schemes for pre BR, (not always to be trusted I know) it looks like a 'maunsell olive' (?? the same as malachite green?) or black. Hmm. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Olive green is, as the name implies, a greyish/beige green like a green olive.

 

Malachite is a bluer shade.

[Il Grifone]

I think that is supposed to be the Maunsell green, which is a darker colour than Malachite. A nearer representation can be found here (at least IMHO). It again is a model, but at least it is contemporary.

(Scroll down to 'No. 1 Special Tank'.)

 

https://www.dutchhrca.nl/priceguide.html#No.1new

[Il Grifone]

More information on Folkestone Harbour.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/f/folkestone_harbour/index.shtml

Edited October 5, 2020 by Il Grifone

[LMS Bess]

Well, it's getting the treatment. New buffers, filled in a huge gash in the shell, new footplate and a backwoods chimney ring. 

 

By the way. I had thought the motor was totally dead but earlier today I touched some lives wires to part of it and it span quite happily. Looking at the service sheet kindly provided above, it looks as if what's missing is a path from the pickup at the wheels to the motor. 

 

I might be able to bodge together such a path but I was wondering, are any resistors etc required to do so safely? And does the electricity flow out of the motor at any point - do I need to earth it through the wheels on the non pickup side? 

 

[phil_sutters]

I don't know what the two gizmos do but this is how an original R1 chassis looks. It is about 50 years since it ran under a Triang Jinty body withwith SDJR on its tank sides. The green lead comes up from the pickups, connects with the black gizmo (resistor whatever) which is mounted on a on a segment of printed circuit board. The green lead then goes on the commutator brush on the far side after which I lose the plot as I can't work out what the silver gizmo does. It seems to bridge the two brushes as it connects to the chassis block. If that helps at all I shall be amazed.

Edited October 8, 2020 by phil_sutters

[The Johnster]

Quite a lot of them seem to have sustained front end damage of this sort, I imagine from floor dives from baseboards or tables.  IIRC the current collection is 'live chassis'; only one side, the right, has pickups bearing on the back of the wheels, which are insulated from the axles on that side. and from which there is a wire to the insulated side of the carbon brush holder spring.  Current picked up through this is returned from the uninsulated brush holder via the metal of the motor and chassis to the axles, and the wheels the other, left, side which are not insulated.  There may be a capacitor between the brush holders or between the insulated and uninsulated sides for tv interference suppression, but that's it as far as electronic components go; no resistors, diodes, or anything.  It is pretty simple.  
 

You don’t need to earth anything; 2-rail model railway 12v DC is not like a car system.  It is convenient to describe things like pickups as ‘supplying’ the current to the motor, and the uninsulated side as ‘returning’ it, but when the polarity is reversed for the loco to run bunker first, it is now the uninsulated ‘return’ side that ‘picks up’ current and the ‘pickup’ side that ‘returns’ it.  There is no reversible polarity in automotive electrics.

 

This is why ‘stayalive’ capacitors cannot be used in DC wired layouts, they’d need to be bidirectional. 

 

When you say the motor spins when you apply current directly to it, is this with the motor in the chassis driving the main cog and the driving wheels?  Reason I ask is that it makes a difference to the process of elimination involved in the fault finding.  If you can drive the wheels around by applying current to the motor, then that does indeed suggest a pickup or pickup wire fault (I'm assuming you've cleaned the pickups and wheel backs, and at least visually checked the wire and it's connections at either end).  If the motor cannot drive the wheels through the gears, it may be that the pickup and it's wire are fine, but that the mechanism is mechanically fouled on something or gummed up, the most likely culprit being a combination of too much oil and caked dirt!  

 

My method for dealing with overlubricated locos (a common result of a loco not performing so the owner assumes it needs oil, then when that doesn't work the solution is obviously more oil, and so on) is to get rid of the gunge with an aerosol can of electronic switch cleaner or similar.  These are usually powerful enough to blast the worst of it out, and you can spray some on an old toothbrush to get the residue off.  Then leave the chassis overnight for the cleaner to evaporate off, and relube it using the least amount of oil you can possibly get away with.  Your local model shop, not necessarily railway, the sort of place that does R/C boats, cars, and planes will do, will sell you a hypodermic syringe and suitable non mineral machine oil.  If you don't want the syringe, apply the oil in droplets on the end of a pin. 

 

I notice that the service sheet doesn't give the oiling points; do axles, gears, motor bearings, and crankpins, but sparingly!  More is not good; less is best1

 

If the wheels won't turn because of a physical blockage or fouling point, then this must be found and eliminated.  Take the motor out of the the chassis, and push the loco along gently with your finger, feeling for tight spots or physical resistance.  Possibilities are bent coupling rods rubbing against wheels, pickups catching in spokes, obstructions inside the splashers, wheels so badly out of gauge that they are rubbing against the chassis block.  It is very unlikely that the wheels are out of quarter, Hornby Dublo/Wrenn locos being famously bombproof in this respect

 

If the pickup wire is not carrying current from the pickup to the insulated side of the motor, and the pickup is bearing correctly on the back of the rh wheels, and the chassis runs freely without the motor in it (actually you don't need to remove the motor to find this out, just slacken the cog grub screw), then we have isolated the problem to the pickup-motor wire,  This is soldered to the pick up strip at one end and the clip that connects it to the brush holder right hand (insulated) side of the motor, and needs replacing.  If you can get a brand new spare (Peter's?) it should come as an assembled and soldered pickup strip, wire, and clip.  Otherwise you'll have to make one up, and this needs soldering.  Apply the iron to the solder connections at both ends of it and pull it away.  Chuck it, it may be broken along it's length under the insulation, they get brittle with age and who am I to judge them?  Cut a new wire to the ballpark length, and solder it to the pickup strip and clip with new solder.  Put the loco on the track, and be amazed when it runs off smoothly when you turn the knob.  Congratulate yourself in whatever method your beliefs and morality allow.

 

If it still won't go, ask again.

Edited October 9, 2020 by The Johnster

[Il Grifone]

The two gizmos are the suppression network. The black one is an inductor (I'm afraid I don't know the value Does anyone?) and the other a capacitor (again, I'm not sure of the value but suspect 470 pF as used by almost everybody else. Earlier Dublo locos (c1950) had a large wax coated object (0.1μF IIRC).

 

The well known  auction site failed to come up with a complete pickup*, but had the vital part is here:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20634-Hornby-DUBLO-WRENN-PICKUP-PLATE-SPRING-K1C/321708966303?epid=1654553407&hash=item4ae759419f:g:gdoAAOSw0KtfSkHj

 

If anyone is interested the various earlier capacitors are here (the 500pF tends to confirm 470pF:)

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-Dublo-3-Rail-Pick-up-Wires-various-Styles/392623455920?hash=item5b6a2e7eb0:g:O~4AAOSwD9JeEKzx

 

The big wax one (twice - in unusually good condition, A smaller 500pF wax version, a 500pF silver mica, and the inductor with a tubular ceramic. They seem to have sold despite the price!

 

* I gave up looking at £15. I have bought the whole engine for less!

 

EDIT

 

Found one!

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-DUBLO-CURRENT-PICK-UP-WIRE-31337-31340-R1-0-6-0-LOCOMOTIVE-2206-2207/352974408431?hash=item522eea0aef:g:FV4AAOSwJp1bdoEc

 

And a half decent complete body - reasonably priced at the moment.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-Dublo-2206-R1-BR-Black-0-6-0-Tank-Locomotive-Shell-31337-Unboxed-Used/402474981604?hash=item5db560d8e4:g:b1wAAOSw~gxfdyMJ

 

 A mineral oil would be OK here, as the mechanism is all metal, just keep it off the plastic body! Stay alive capacitors would need to be bipolar for DC and, for the current drain of a Dublo motor, rather large to be any use. The mechanical equivalent is a flywheel, but there's no room for one of those either!

 

Repro chimney caps are available in metal so rather more robust than the original which is notoriously delicate. (Usual disclaimer!)

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20629R-Hornby-DUBLO-WHITE-METAL-CHIMNEY-CAP-FOR-R1-

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Il Grifone
Success!

[LMS Bess]

Thanks chaps. I'll read these posts several times before trying to do anything but I think the solution is close. 

 

I'm betting the problem is the pickup because there ought to be a wire leading from that into the motor, which wire ain't there. I'm also missing one brush but they can be had on eBay. 

 

That's interesting about the (I'm now going to get the terminology wrong) current returning to the negative track via the chassis and wheels. 

 

To throw in another question: I'd assume the wire leading to the motor and connections therein needs to be insulated? 

 

Mechanics of the wheels and gears all turn smoothly. 

[Il Grifone]

Yes, a thin piece of flexible wire. It's usually green, but black would be less visible.

 

The brushes seem to be expensive at the moment. For the 1/2" motor as fitted to the R1, you will require the shorter brushes (the longer ones are for the Bo-Bo diesel).

[LMS Bess]

Would a bit of homebrew bent copper work do you think or no? 

[The Johnster]

For the pickup feed wire, yes, not to replace the carbon brushes.  If these are not in need of replacement, fine; good idea to clean the commutator though.  This is the copper bit of the motor that the brushes rub against, you need to clean the surface of carbon deposits and, using a pin, dig them out of the segment gaps.  This will increase the service life of your brushes, which have to be replaced when they've worn down to the brass; they may have stopped bearing on the commutator efficiently before this.  

 

My memory fails me as to alternative brushes; Triang X04 or early Airfix (the ones for the 14xx) may fit.

[Il Grifone]

As a brush no, as the contact surface is carbon*. Metal would work, but damage is likely to result to the commutator. There used to be a supply of replacement brush heads** on eBay, but it seems to have dried up. At a push, a Tri-ang (or even Trix) brush could be fitted, but it needs modification to match the correct type. they are about the right length (but need to be the same) and the mounting slot is different.

 

* Some makes seem to favour one metal brush (copper braid) and one carbon.

 

** The ones currently on offer seem to have been fitted with these. Original Dublo brush heads are circular in section.

 

For cleaning the commutator slots, I have seen the use of plastic toothpicks recommended. I think this would be better than the traditional pin as it would not damage the slots or commutator face (I have had the pin slip and scratch the copper    )

For Tri-ang motors this is important. For some unknown reason, Dublo seem to be affected much less (or is this just me?).

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Il Grifone

[LMS Bess]

Aha. And are the brushes supposed to be directly contacting the commutator? 

[melmerby]

See picture below with R1 motor & Romford 40T gear (left)  and HD 35T gear (right)

 

And the chassis it came from:

 

Complete with Mashima Motor, Romford gears & wheels plus a decoder.

 

It sits under a Wills TV U1 tank.

Edited October 10, 2020 by melmerby

[The Johnster]

Yes, the brushes rub against the commutator, kept there and at the right pressure by spring, which forces the tops of the brass brush holders outwards; as these then pivot where they go through the slits in the top frame of the motor housing, pressure is exerted inwards at commutator level.  
 

All you need to do is solder a length of insulated wire to the pickup strip at one end (if you’ve removed this make sure you put it back on the correct side of the chassis, rh facing forwards, same goes for the wheels if you’ve had them out, insulated wheels rh side facing forward.  I have to double check as I get confused when chassis are turned upside down), and to the clip that fits over the brass brush holder, insulated from the spring clip by an insulating sleeve that fits over it.  
 

This can be seen in melmerby’s top photo; the wire fits to this side of the motor and there should be a little brass clip that fits over the brush holder shaped to fit to it.  If you haven’t got this piece, cut the top off an old brush holder, or bodge it by soldering the feed  wire direct to the brush holder.  Don’t bodge it with silver paper or the like as the current drawn will burn this out, possibly with the rest of the loco, house, street, town...

 

Don’t be confused by melmerby’s 2nd photo; he has apparently insulated both sides of his chassis, so will have pickups on both sides, necessitating 2 feed wires to the Mashima terminals, the red and blue ones.  The others are in connection (sorry) with a DCC chip I think.   Can motors have to be wired like this. 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by The Johnster

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I know this may go against the grain here. But you could just restore it to it's original condition. Or one of the other liveries they painted it in. I love the Southern green livery with gold lettering. I think it is Olive and not Malachite. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by cypherman