RMweb Premium Andy Kirkham Posted September 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 3, 2020 (edited) Maps of Porthmadog until as recently as the 1970s showed what was, to my eyes at any rate, unmistakeably the formation of a standard gauge railway that I have never seen mentioned in any book. I have walked the area in recent years and have found no trace of it on the ground. It is present on the earliest map that I can find - a six-inch map of 1887. Does anyone know anything of its history? It rather looks as if it's heading towards the Ffestiniog's Harbour Station. Edited September 3, 2020 by Andy Kirkham 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John Isherwood Posted September 3, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 3, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said: Maps of Porthmadog until as recently as the 1970s showed what was, to my eyes at any rate, unmistakeably the formation of a standard gauge railway that I have never seen mentioned in any book. I have walked the area in recent years and have found no trace of it on the ground. It is present on the earliest map that I can find - a six-inch map of 1887. Does anyone know anything of its history? It rather looks as if it's heading towards the Ffestiniog's Harbour Station. ... or it could be a strip of land set aside for an intended length of flood bank, to link up with the railway embankment. It would then have been possible to reclaim the land thus enclosed for development. Note the marked similarity of the width of the strip of land in question, to that of the existing flood bank enclosing the Llyn Bach. Don't forget that William Madocks, (17 June 1773 – 15 September 1828), was responsible for the building of the Cob, and many other embankments in the area, with the principal intention of land reclamation rather than railway construction. John Isherwood. Edited September 3, 2020 by cctransuk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul H Vigor Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 Hi Andy, I've had a look at a LIDAR scan of Porthmadog. There is a very minor earthwork following the curve of the proposed siding/branch alignment. I would hazard a guess that said earthwork was a low bank associated with a boundary fence line? It looks like land for a siding/branch was acquired and fenced (as shown on your map). However, it seems the proposed siding/branch was never built. You might contact the Gwynedd County Record Office (archifau@gwynedd.llyw.cymru)? They might have a Deposited Plan of the proposed siding/branch in their archive. They may have other info that may be of use to you. Worth a punt! All the best, Paul 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 I'd go with the intended, purchased and fenced railway alignment, to get the Cambrian onto the quayside. If you look on Ynys Tywyn at the back of Brittania Villas you can see a suspiciously aligned curving low "cliff", which I must have looked at a hundred times, which could be artificial, blasted, rather than natural, and would work to give a path for a railway onto the quay. I'm not sure it works as a flood bank, because if that was what it was, why bother with a nice curve, when a shorter, cheaper straight line would do? And why ignore/avoid the sticky-up island, which would contribute nicely to a flood bank for free. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 It does seem to line up rather nicely with extant railway alignments. With the eye of faith there seems to be a corresponding shadow on the ground in the modern Google overhead view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 I have a feeling it was a road (possibly once something like a tramway) for dumping stuff used in the construction of the railway. Maybe to create the flood defences. These are the views on GE and looks like something was possibly there. https://www.google.com/maps/@52.9298797,-4.1259626,3a,75y,115.54h,87.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saa4knV9esHLTKNFcOxjXjQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@52.9299865,-4.1258113,3a,75y,319.86h,80.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spGeiFT0dCXajyIKapKDS3w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHC Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 I think it was part of one of the proposal to expand the port to rival the likes of Holyhead. Backing for the Festiniog railway was mainly from Ireland and the idea was to be able to shorten the route from London to Dublin. I am sure there are better experts on the Festiniog on here who can answer this better. Keith Ps. for correctness I am using the original spelling of the name as per the setting up act nowadays the welsh spelling is used of Ffestininog Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 I thought that was going to be at Porthdinllaen, but none of the proposals came to anything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porthdinllaen The problem with Portmadog was it wasn't suitable for large boats and ships. One of the reasons it never really prospered as a port. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir douglas Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 it was a proposed branch of the standard gauge to the harbour to take slate from the FR instead of Minffordd but didnt get any further than land acquisition which you see on the map 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5982 Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 (edited) There was indeed a proposal to expand the Harbour facilities at Portmadoc quite considerably - but strictly for freight, not passenger use as suggested by Keith. JIC Boyds "The Festiniog Railway" shows a number of map extracts and plans. At lease two of these (dated 1845 and 1864) show the area north of the current small lake north of Britannia Bridge as "Site of New Inner Harbour," or similar. This development would have been a logical target for a Cambrian branch starting on the alignment that Andy's map suggests. In fact it would have pretty much blocked any continuation of that alignment to the Festiniog unless it could be achieved through dockside sidings - where transhipment of slate between Festiniog and Cambrian sounds a bit unlikely. Brian PS: same comment as Keith re spellings! Edited September 4, 2020 by 5982 word omitted. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted September 4, 2020 Share Posted September 4, 2020 (edited) https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0860936449/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_NiNuFb08M4G71 There is a mention on pp115 of this book that the 'Croesor extension to Portmadoc Harbour' could be completed at a cost of £737 this being in 1871. Looking further the origin of the proposed branch is in 1869 when a proposal was made to convert part of the Croesor tramway to mixed gauge so the Cambrian could get one third of the traffic off the tramway. No mention of Acts but the Cambrian had history where the building of railways without acts is concerned. Edited September 4, 2020 by PenrithBeacon 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 On 04/09/2020 at 08:17, KeithHC said: I think it was part of one of the proposal to expand the port to rival the likes of Holyhead. Backing for the Festiniog railway was mainly from Ireland and the idea was to be able to shorten the route from London to Dublin. I am sure there are better experts on the Festiniog on here who can answer this better. Keith Ps. for correctness I am using the original spelling of the name as per the setting up act nowadays the welsh spelling is used of Ffestininog Ffestininog ??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHC Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 20 minutes ago, Poor Old Bruce said: Ffestininog ??? fffffingerrrrrr trouble.........." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben B Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 Like Nearholmer I've often walked round that patch and thought it looked like a possible old railway. Very interesting topic this 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted September 10, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 10, 2020 On 04/09/2020 at 15:52, Steamport Southport said: I thought that was going to be at Porthdinllaen, but none of the proposals came to anything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porthdinllaen The problem with Portmadog was it wasn't suitable for large boats and ships. One of the reasons it never really prospered as a port. Jason I don’t think that’s fair; it was capable of taking schooners used in the slate trade, and home port of registry for many of them. A world wide export trade was operated out of the port until at least the end of the 19th century, after which larger steamships put paid to it, and you would have been hard put to find a bigger slate port. It prospered for many years performing the function it was designed and built for. 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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