Physical Appearance of LMS Locomotives Late 1930's

[Moose2013]

Moose would like to know what the physical appearance of an LMS steam locomotive would have been in the late 1930's.

 

High gloss finish?   Somewhat griming with light rust?   Heavy grim, dirt with significant rust?   Photo examples?

 

Moose accustom to seeing photos of North American steam locomotives with a fair amount of grim, dirt and rust present. Yet, it seems that photos of British steam tend to depict very clean, glossy appearance.

 

Moose pre-ordering a Graham Farish LMS 8F 2-8-0 very soon and would like to better understand prototypical appearance of said locomotive for the late 1930's in order to have the locomotive properly weathered.

 

Thank you in advance!

[Pete the Elaner]

I assume you mean pre-war?

 

I have always believed that the prestige services were kept clean, those hauled by the streamlined coronations (particularly the blue ones) & also the other pacifics & 4-6-0s.

Would the staff had taken the same pride with the others? Their crews would have done, but would they have had the same support & time to take the care they wanted.

[Moose2013]

Thank you for the reply Pete. Yes, definitely meant pre-war.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Try this website, you will find plenty of pictures from pre-grouping to the end of steam. 

https://warwickshirerailways.com

Edited August 16, 2020 by TheSignalEngineer

[Moose2013]

Thank you for the link Mr Signal Engineer. The photos of pre-war locomotives seem to show a minimum of dirt, grim, and a dull sheen as typical.

 

Wonder if there any websites containing colour photos, particularity of pre-war 8F's?

[Wickham Green too]

You might be lucky to find what you want in the background - but colour film was rare / expensive before ( not to mention during ) the war and would have been reserved for photos of colourful locos, whether that were red, blue or green !

[Moose2013]

Thank you Mr Green. Agreed, just trying to get as much info. as possible.

[Butler Henderson]

On page 16 of "The Big Four in Colour 1935-50" David Jenkinson ISN 0 906899 62 1 there is a Patriot in 1938 and the caption notes "the engine is red (!), and one can see some sheen below the grime, but the LMS worked its express power intensively at that time and the grubby state was not entirely unprototypical though usually not as bad as this. 

Similar comments are made on page 22 re a LYR 4-6-0 in 1937 - "little sign of red paint on the boiler...although the LMS was not the smartest of railways , red engines were not usually as bad as this."

There are a number of black locos pictures which clearly have some extents of grime on them

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Butler Henderson

[Moose2013]

Thank you Butler. Very interesting! So, perhaps grimy, dirty and dullish on this 8F could be prototypical.

[Ravenser]

An 8F would have been at the grubbier end of the spectrum, but the engine cleaners at the shed would still have had a go at it from time to time

 

Quote

The photos of pre-war locomotives seem to show a minimum of dirt, grim, and a dull sheen as typical.

 

A good impression. One thing that does seem to have happened pre-war, but isn't modelled , is the big loco with patches of dirt but a rich glossy sheen all over after the cleaners had been over it vigorously  with lots of oily rags. But that would have been on express passenger locos...

 

An 8F would have been almost new in the late 1930s, so it wouldn't have got too run down.

 

Filth came in with World War 2

[TheSignalEngineer]

Another good collection of pre-nationalisation photos is this one

https://railphotoprints.uk/p693470659

 

Unfortunately no colour but a wide range of locos in various conditions.

 

If you google Railway Photograph Collection you will find several more

[Moose2013]

Thank you both!   The more Moose reads, the more original impression seems correct regarding minimal dirt, grim, etc. The railphotoprints showed one photo of an 8F that turns out to be no. 8035 that Graham-Farish has coming out that Moose is hoping to acquire...

[LMS2968]

You need to treat photos with caution: many photographers had preference's and these included clean locos. You will get a higher percentage of clean locos in photos than you would have done had you stood at the lineside and watched them go past.

 

The 1930s were not good years for any of the railways, starting as they did with the Depression, which in turn had a very deleterious effect on traffic and, therefore, revenue.The LMS was rather notorious for its lack of cleaning. The CoE was Sir (Later Lord) Josiah Stamp, an economist, who was determined to improve matters and unnecessary work - and employees - were not acceptable. Cleaning engines was very much considered unnecessary. They worked just as well dirty as clean, so why waste money?

[Moose2013]

Thank you very much Mr LMS!   Your points are well taken.

 

Since the no. 8035 that Moose hopes to acquire was built 1936 or 1937 and the intent is to have a pre-war condition, how much rust, grim & dirt would there be?

 

Moose intending to purchase from The Model Centre (TMC) who specializing in weathering. Moose leaning towards their "light weathering" as rust appears non-existent and grim & dirt seem minimal, in keeping with a locomotive with perhaps one year in service. See linked TMC steam locomotive images.

 

https://www.themodelcentre.com/gallery

 

Seems reasonable?

[kevinlms]

Don't forget that pre WW2, most of the 8F's weren't built yet! Only the first 126 I think,  8000-8125.

 

So they were fairly new, so not filthy.

[Wickham Green too]

Depends on WHEN in 1939 the last of 8098-125 were outshopped whether they all count as pre-war or not ........ but that's splitting hairs.

The loco in question - 8035 - would have been a couple of years old at the start of hostilities ( so grubby rather than filthy ) ........ looks like it was lucky not to have been 'called up' for service overseas as many of that Vulcan Foundry batch were.

[LMS2968]

You'd be amazed at how quickly any steam engine can get filthy. You're talking weeks rather than years, and most 8Fs would not have been cleaned at all from one works visit to the next. By 1939, even a grubby 8F would be a rarity. Generally the only clean bits would be the cab sides , and then only the numbers (it's helpfully to take the allocated engine when given a working, so the rag would occasionally by wiped over the numerals. Questions would be asked if a crew took the wrong engine!).

[Moose2013]

Thank you all for the additional considerations.

 

Moose is going to have to pour through a lot of photos, specifically to say 1938 LMS freight but not necessarily just the 8F, to get a much more detailed understanding for these points.

 

Will be putting off pre-ordering the model until this moose is certain...

[TheSignalEngineer]

9 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Depends on WHEN in 1939 the last of 8098-125 were outshopped whether they all count as pre-war or not .....

8125 was outshopped in June 1939 I understand.

[Wickham Green too]

Even that would have been getting a little grubby by the start of hostilities, then .......... but I don't think the OP actually specified that cut-off so the existing 8Fs would have varied from pristine to disgusting across "the late 1930's".

[The Johnster]

On 16/08/2020 at 21:32, Moose2013 said:

how much rust, grim & dirt would there be?

Not a lot of rust; dirty does not equate to poorly maintained.  A heavy freight loco would probably not be cleaned except over the numbers between shoppings; grim grime and dirt is the way to go unless within a month or so of coming out of shops, less if it was bad weather in some of the most heavily industrialised and polluted areas of the UK.

 

On 17/08/2020 at 13:35, LMS2968 said:

Questions would be asked if a crew took the wrong engine!).

Funny how this seemed to always occur when the booked engine was a bag of nails and the engine they'd taken was a good 'un, or had been given better coal for a tough working, or, well, you get the gist...

 

3 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

so the existing 8Fs would have varied from pristine to disgusting across "the late 1930's".

The earliest locos becoming more disgusting and less pristine with every passing day; 2 months in service and they'd all have been filthy.

[Moose2013]

Thank you Johnster and everyone else who has provided information. Much appreciated!

 

Well, it looks like Moose is not going to purchase the 8F afterall, as Moose's train budget has taken a drastic turn. Instead, this information will be applied to other locomotives that Moose currently owns and would like to weather...