The Night Mail

[newbryford]

3 hours ago, Tony_S said:

There is I believe a similar question for the number of Lakes in the Lake District too.

 

The answer is one.

[AndyID]

4 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Ahem, would you like to nominate someone to attend on your behalf?

 

 

It's worth a shot. They might be having a problem making up the numbers. I'll send you more info.

[SM42]

Page 900

 

Yayyy!

 

Ceiling painting is complete in the lounge

 

Flooring starts tomorrow 

 

Andy

[AndyID]

24 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

The answer is one.

 

That's why it's called the Lake District. 😀

[J. S. Bach]

Minnesota, Land of ten thousand lakes. I think that we have you beat! 😺

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, SM42 said:

Page 900

 

Yayyy!

 

Ceiling painting is complete in the lounge

 

Flooring starts tomorrow 

 

Andy

 

It's actually page 902  if you include the hidden posts.

But not many people would know that.......

 

😉

[newbryford]

59 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

Minnesota, Land of ten thousand lakes. I think that we have you beat! 😺

 

A darn sight better than 4000 holes in Blackburn, Lancashire.

 

But that was in 1967.

 

Driving around, it feels like a lot more now..........

 

 

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, AndyID said:

 

That's why it's called the Lake District. 😀

 

One "Lake" but 16 lakes.

[Winslow Boy]

2 hours ago, SM42 said:

Page 900

 

Yayyy!

 

Ceiling painting is complete in the lounge

 

Flooring starts tomorrow 

 

Andy

 

You paint the floor!

 

I think I may have just figured out where you may be going wrong.

 

Please don't tell me it's concrete just don't.

[jjb1970]

On the subject of the Lake District, the pic below illustrates one of my pet hates - the 'Disneyfication' of Cumbria. I am from Carlisle, it is not and never has been part of the Lake District and for hundreds of years it had its own identity, yet now it is trying to latch onto the lakes (in fairness, I don't think this comes from the people of Carlisle). Cumbria, and the counties of Cumberland, Westmorland and Lancashire North of the Sands, is/were a lot more than the Lake District (beautiful as it is). Personally I much prefer the Solway Coast, despite never being far from population it is a gorgeous area which feels genuinely secluded and far from the world. The Eden Valley might lack the tourist appeal of the lakes but in it's own way it is just as scenic, and again in some ways nicer thanks to the lack of touristy stuff. And although the part of Hadrians Wall country and borderland is relatively short compared to Northumberland and Tyneside it is still a wonderful part of the county (unlike the Eastern end, the western part of the wall is close to the border. We don't need everywhere to try and pretend to be part of the Lake District. Carlisle and West Cumbria were formerly highly industrialized and proud of their industrial heritage quite aside from Carlisle's historic significance as a border city. Rant off, sorry.

[jamie92208]

As another Carlisle born person I agree.  I believe that my home gity actually belonged to the Scots for a period. 

21 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

The answer is one.

Yes and the Lake had a railway station named after it that I once travelled to with my mother.

 

Anyway enough geographic trivia today is show time.  I've been given a pass out to a large show that has one complete hall of O gauge content at Chatelleraut about 80 miles north of here. I'm picking a mate up at 09.00 and it should be a good day.  Fortunately  Beth's blood sugar behaved yesterday and she appears none the worse for her appearance in Resus.

 

Jamie

Edited September 24, 2022 by jamie92208

[iL Dottore]

17 hours ago, rockershovel said:

I worked on the Nord Stream 1 project which was based in Switzerland, and I know a number of people who worked on NS2 based in Zug (I didn't pursue that as I was already committed). They all spoke well of their experiences although tax, visas and forms of contract seemed to have been an issue for most of them - tax was an issue in Germany and I did several short spells there finishing off items left by people who had left to avoid becoming liable for German tax. 

The Swiss are very particular about, and attentive, to immigration. With Switzerland being a small country and being mostly mountain, new arrivals cannot simply disappear into the hinterland. 

The Swiss issue various types of work permit – from brief stay permits (for seasonal workers in the agricultural sector) to permanent resident permits for those expected to stay for a number of years. The Swiss authorities are also very, very rigourous in dealing with permit holders: one permit holder who was caught speeding at a multiple of the upper speed limit had his residency permit revoked and was deported.
 

When I first came to Switzerland (1989), I was told by some Swiss and ex-pat acquaintances that if I were to get a German girlfriend, she’d better not park overnight in Switzerland, as the police (or more probably customs and immigration - it’s been a while since I’ve thought about this) would do nightly searches for cars with German numberplates overnighting in Switzerland and would follow up with fines or summonses for “immigration violations“. How much of that was true and how much was some leg pulling of the new boy by my Swiss and ex-pat acquaintances of the time, I really don’t know. But it sounds plausible.

 

Of course, the Swiss are able to exercise considerable control over immigration and immigrants because in Switzerland everyone has to have a photo ID card. and so there is almost no underground economy into which undocumented immigrants can disappear. Even now, as a Swiss citizen married to a Swiss, if I move from my present address to that in another village I would have to notify the police (although I suspect this has more to do with the tax collection rather than anything more “Big Brother” like).

 

I’ve always wondered why the British have been so resistant to the idea of photo ID cards. In the past, the idea of the government looking over your shoulder without your permission was certainly a valid reason, but nowadays with so much of modern life being conducted online, the government can easily know more about you than you might wish it to*: ID card or no ID card. So why not adopt an ID card scheme - it would, I think, bring numerous advantages.

 

* ‘Morning, GCHQ hope you’re having a great day!

[Happy Hippo]

I'm not sure why I needed to get up so early, so I could sit and wait to go to Stafford for the SRC show today.

 

Like Jamie, I'm picking up a friend en-route, which is fixing my departure time.

 

At some stage during the proceedings at Stafford we will be meeting up with DH which will lead to a frenzy of cake scoffing in the upstairs cafe.

[polybear]

18 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

I’ve always wondered why the British have been so resistant to the idea of photo ID cards. In the past, the idea of the government looking over your shoulder without your permission was certainly a valid reason, but nowadays with so much of modern life being conducted online, the government can easily know more about you than you might wish it to*: ID card or no ID card. So why not adopt an ID card scheme - it would, I think, bring numerous advantages.

 

* ‘Morning, GCHQ hope you’re having a great day!

 

Bear recalls TV programme (it may have been on every day for a week?) where the TV crew shadowed the staff of a big London Hospital - conducting staff and patient interviews, filming operations etc. etc.  They also did a lot of behind the scenes filming as well - everything that makes a Hospital tick.  One member of staff (in an admin role) was asked what was the most difficult part of her job; her reply was "Making sure that everyone who comes from treatment is actually entitled to treatment" - basically those from abroad trying to scam the system.

I think a compulsory I.D. would really help there.

[AndyID]

27 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

Bear recalls TV programme (it may have been on every day for a week?) where the TV crew shadowed the staff of a big London Hospital - conducting staff and patient interviews, filming operations etc. etc.  They also did a lot of behind the scenes filming as well - everything that makes a Hospital tick.  One member of staff (in an admin role) was asked what was the most difficult part of her job; her reply was "Making sure that everyone who comes from treatment is actually entitled to treatment" - basically those from abroad trying to scam the system.

I think a compulsory I.D. would really help there.

 

Something like 20 years ago on a trip back to Scotland I had to see a doctor for some minor ailment. When I asked how I could pay for the visit nobody can a clue what to do about it.😀

[polybear]

21 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

Something like 20 years ago on a trip back to Scotland I had to see a doctor for some minor ailment. When I asked how I could pay for the visit nobody can a clue what to do about it.😀

 

"Oodles of cake should do it, Sir....."

[iL Dottore]

4 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

On the subject of the Lake District, the pic below illustrates one of my pet hates - the 'Disneyfication' of Cumbria….

Is it really a Disneyfication of Cumbria or simply a response to the “stupidfication” of the populace at large?
 

Of course, the population is neither more intelligent nor stupider than the previous generations, but when you look at popular culture of the 60s and 70s  you can certainly see that back then broadcasters assumed that the viewing and listening public had brains and could use them! In the 60s and 70s you got television programmes like Connections with James Burke, or That Was the Week That Was, nowadays you get things like Benefits Street or Mock The Week - hardly comparable; in music in the 60s and 70s you had musicians who could play and singers who could sing, nowadays it’s all session musicians and Auto-Tune (prog-rock may not have been to everyone’s taste, but by gum could Steve Howe [Yes] and Keith Emerson [The Nice/ELP] play!)

 

To be utterly, utterly cynical about this, one could claim it’s nothing more than Panem et Circenses updated for the 21st century. Why encourages the masses to think for themselves when they can be distracted by cheap food (panem) and dumbed down… (well almost) everything (Circenses)

[Northmoor]

57 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

Bear recalls TV programme (it may have been on every day for a week?) where the TV crew shadowed the staff of a big London Hospital - conducting staff and patient interviews, filming operations etc. etc.  They also did a lot of behind the scenes filming as well - everything that makes a Hospital tick.  One member of staff (in an admin role) was asked what was the most difficult part of her job; her reply was "Making sure that everyone who comes from treatment is actually entitled to treatment" - basically those from abroad trying to scam the system.

I think a compulsory I.D. would really help there.

While she said it was the most difficult part of her job, what the newspapers at the nastier end of the spectrum would wrongly have us believe, is that is was a major part of her job.  It really isn't; you just need to sit in A&E for a while to see that us "indigenous" Brits are quite capable of overloading the NHS through our own incompetence and lack of self-care, on our own.  At least the NHS treats the patient and assumes it will be able to recover payment, rather than assuming anyone foreign-looking is suspicious.

 

Daily Show presenter Trevor Noah once told the story of being admitted to a US hospital with appendicitis, which only became more concerning and painful each time he was moved to another room and had to ask the same set of questions about his symptoms, how long it had gone on etc.  After he had been asked for about the fourth time, how he intended to pay, he replied, "With my life, apparently!".

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, iL Dottore said:

The Swiss are very particular about, and attentive, to immigration. With Switzerland being a small country and being mostly mountain, new arrivals cannot simply disappear into the hinterland. 

The Swiss issue various types of work permit – from brief stay permits (for seasonal workers in the agricultural sector) to permanent resident permits for those expected to stay for a number of years. The Swiss authorities are also very, very rigourous in dealing with permit holders: one permit holder who was caught speeding at a multiple of the upper speed limit had his residency permit revoked and was deported.
 

When I first came to Switzerland (1989), I was told by some Swiss and ex-pat acquaintances that if I were to get a German girlfriend, she’d better not park overnight in Switzerland, as the police (or more probably customs and immigration - it’s been a while since I’ve thought about this) would do nightly searches for cars with German numberplates overnighting in Switzerland and would follow up with fines or summonses for “immigration violations“. How much of that was true and how much was some leg pulling of the new boy by my Swiss and ex-pat acquaintances of the time, I really don’t know. But it sounds plausible.

 

Of course, the Swiss are able to exercise considerable control over immigration and immigrants because in Switzerland everyone has to have a photo ID card. and so there is almost no underground economy into which undocumented immigrants can disappear. Even now, as a Swiss citizen married to a Swiss, if I move from my present address to that in another village I would have to notify the police (although I suspect this has more to do with the tax collection rather than anything more “Big Brother” like).

 

I’ve always wondered why the British have been so resistant to the idea of photo ID cards. In the past, the idea of the government looking over your shoulder without your permission was certainly a valid reason, but nowadays with so much of modern life being conducted online, the government can easily know more about you than you might wish it to*: ID card or no ID card. So why not adopt an ID card scheme - it would, I think, bring numerous advantages.

 

* ‘Morning, GCHQ hope you’re having a great day!

 

That's the same in Singapore. Nowadays I really struggle to see a good argument against ID cards. The old aversion to big government monitoring and control lost its rationale many years ago when we all started using smart phones, digital shopping and payment platforms, e-mail and various laws about banking disclosure etc. If the government is already getting the stuff they want then we may as well go the final step as ID cards can be useful once you accept the concept. Part of the card is the identity number, used with the government Singpass system I can access all government services, update details and even banking and utilities details through a single platform. I remember over the last couple of years being amused at the number of people using mobile phones and social media to spread stories that track and trace was a big government conspiracy to track us all with no apparent sense of irony. I say all this as a libertarian, but once the train has left the station we may as well make it work for people.

[PhilJ W]

2 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

I’ve always wondered why the British have been so resistant to the idea of photo ID cards. In the past, the idea of the government looking over your shoulder without your permission was certainly a valid reason, but nowadays with so much of modern life being conducted online, the government can easily know more about you than you might wish it to*: ID card or no ID card. So why not adopt an ID card scheme - it would, I think, bring numerous advantages.

* ‘Morning, GCHQ hope you’re having a great day!

 

52 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

While she said it was the most difficult part of her job, what the newspapers at the nastier end of the spectrum would wrongly have us believe, is that is was a major part of her job.  It really isn't; you just need to sit in A&E for a while to see that us "indigenous" Brits are quite capable of overloading the NHS through our own incompetence and lack of self-care, on our own.  At least the NHS treats the patient and assumes it will be able to recover payment, rather than assuming anyone foreign-looking is suspicious.

When the government wanted to introduce ID cards (about 20 years ago IIRC) those same newspapers rallied against it so we now don't have ID cards.

[Northmoor]

42 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

 

When the government wanted to introduce ID cards (about 20 years ago IIRC) those same newspapers rallied against it so we now don't have ID cards.

Very true.  I don't have a problem with ID cards per se, it's just that while they are used in democratic countries, they are one of the tools of despotic governments, so I'd rather not have too many of those tools already in place if we accidentally elect one....

 

My problem is more with the ignorance of politicians who have proposed implementing them - and who have even less understanding of technology than journalists - making statements like, "they will be un-copyable".  That's garbage; if you can make something once, you can make it twice.  Also, by making access to so many benefits and services dependent on an ID card, you might prevent a lot of low level ID fraud, but for professional criminals you make it potentially much more lucrative.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Northmoor

[rockershovel]

20 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

 

When the government wanted to introduce ID cards (about 20 years ago IIRC) those same newspapers rallied against it so we now don't have ID cards.

... which rather brings us back to why the political/federal end of the EU was always impossible to sell to the British, and particularly the English. De Gaulle said this in the 1960s and he knew the English well. 

 

England, for better or worse practices a system of Common Law, the essential character of which is that any given thing is permitted unless it is specifically illegal, no offence can be committed unless some demonstrable harm (tort) takes place, the burden of proof applies and the presumption of innocence applies.  This is quite different from most European systems. 

 

This has been much eroded by the successive imposition of laws revolving around subjective offence, but still applies to varying extents. 

 

The English are also well aware that their electoral system returns a generous selection of knaves and scoundrels, who aren't to be trusted and need reminding of their role. Hence the resistance to ID Cards. You might feel that in the modern age much of the function already exists, and you would probably be right, but the symbolism of withholding this consent remains. 

 

The English aren't good at abstract political thought, but they do have certain strongly held (if not always particularly logical) beliefs which you transgress at your own risk. The Poll Tax was a case in point; Lloyd George regarded this as far too dangerous to attempt, and he was proved right in the end... 

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

The Swiss are very particular about, and attentive, to immigration. With Switzerland being a small country and being mostly mountain, new arrivals cannot simply disappear into the hinterland. 

The Swiss issue various types of work permit – from brief stay permits (for seasonal workers in the agricultural sector) to permanent resident permits for those expected to stay for a number of years. The Swiss authorities are also very, very rigourous in dealing with permit holders: one permit holder who was caught speeding at a multiple of the upper speed limit had his residency permit revoked and was deported.
 

When I first came to Switzerland (1989), I was told by some Swiss and ex-pat acquaintances that if I were to get a German girlfriend, she’d better not park overnight in Switzerland, as the police (or more probably customs and immigration - it’s been a while since I’ve thought about this) would do nightly searches for cars with German numberplates overnighting in Switzerland and would follow up with fines or summonses for “immigration violations“. How much of that was true and how much was some leg pulling of the new boy by my Swiss and ex-pat acquaintances of the time, I really don’t know. But it sounds plausible.

 

Of course, the Swiss are able to exercise considerable control over immigration and immigrants because in Switzerland everyone has to have a photo ID card. and so there is almost no underground economy into which undocumented immigrants can disappear. Even now, as a Swiss citizen married to a Swiss, if I move from my present address to that in another village I would have to notify the police (although I suspect this has more to do with the tax collection rather than anything more “Big Brother” like).

 

I’ve always wondered why the British have been so resistant to the idea of photo ID cards. In the past, the idea of the government looking over your shoulder without your permission was certainly a valid reason, but nowadays with so much of modern life being conducted online, the government can easily know more about you than you might wish it to*: ID card or no ID card. So why not adopt an ID card scheme - it would, I think, bring numerous advantages.

 

* ‘Morning, GCHQ hope you’re having a great day!

You seem to be arguing against yourself, by demonstrating that any given law only applies to the extent that there is political will to enforce it. 

 

 

[SM42]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

Very true.  I don't have a problem with ID cards per se, it's just that while they are used in democratic countries, they are one of the tools of despotic governments, so I'd rather not have too many of those tools already in place if we accidentally elect one....

 

My problem is more with the ignorance of politicians who have proposed implementing them - and who have even less understanding of technology than journalists - making statements like, "they will be un-copyable".  That's garbage; if you can make something once, you can make it twice.  Also, by making access to so many benefits and services dependent on an ID card, you might prevent a lot of low level ID fraud, but for professional criminals you make it potentially much more lucrative.

 

But even now you can pop into your local registry office and get a birth certificate of someone about your age, who may have died as a child, and you can suddenly become them.

 

ID cards are not perfect, but at least there is a bit more security involved.

 

I think the big problem with the last attempt was trying to put too much on it.

 

As a simple way of proving whom you claim to be that fits neatly in your wallet is sufficient. Linking it, smartcard like, to all sorts of electronic access for various services was never going to fly.

 

Mrs SM42 manages quite well with her national ID card without all the gubbins that were proposed for the UK version, so why can't we?

 

Andy

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

Very true.  I don't have a problem with ID cards per se, it's just that while they are used in democratic countries, they are one of the tools of despotic governments, so I'd rather not have too many of those tools already in place if we accidentally elect one....

 

My problem is more with the ignorance of politicians who have proposed implementing them - and who have even less understanding of technology than journalists - making statements like, "they will be un-copyable".  That's garbage; if you can make something once, you can make it twice.  Also, by making access to so many benefits and services dependent on an ID card, you might prevent a lot of low level ID fraud, but for professional criminals you make it potentially much more lucrative.

 

I share much of this. My position on ID cards is one of acceptance based on the fact we're already being monitored and at least ID cards offer some value to us in return for being monitored. But, I do recognise there are issues. I do think one reason there is a lot of resistance is that they have been oversold as a sort of panacea. There is one former prime minister who seems to appear at every crisis point to claim ID cards would be the answer to every possible problem, which is nonsense. If the security services can't monitor terrorist threats with all the tools available to them already then ID cards won't make much difference. We already have NI numbers and NHS numbers which give some tracking for NHS and social services access (albeit they're imperfect), however if there was a national crisis tomorrow over the price of smarties the fellow in question would probably appear to tell us that the crisis of chocolate confectionary pricing necessitated introducing a national ID card. I think they're a useful tool, can make access to various services easier, can be used to help various government departments talk to one another (how many times have we seen dreadful events because persons red flagged by one government agency weren't on warning lists of other agencies/departments?) but ultimately these things could be managed without such cards. I maybe have a very rosy picture as the government in Singapore tends to be very competent and their various agencies are both straight shooters (there is none of the 'coffee money' culture common in its neighbours) and take their jobs very seriously. How well such a system would be implemented in the UK (a much bigger country with different legal systems within the UK) I'm not sure.