The Night Mail

[jjb1970]

One of the saddest aspects of war other than the obvious human tragedy is that it is humankinds destructive tendencies which have often stimulated our greatest scientific achievements, foster a community spirit rarely seen in peacetime and such inspirational and heroic behaviour.

[jjb1970]

4 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

I once way back in the late '70s had the grave misfortune to be on a night train that was conveying large numbers of knucklehead kickball fans who had just seen Ingerland win at Wembley and it was appalling. I went through the train looking for somewhere that wasn't infested with them and when I met the guard (remember them?) asked him if there was anywhere relatively quiet whereupon he took me to a first class  carriage and said I could sit there despite not having a first class ticket. As he left he said that it was lucky that so far the knuckle draggers hadn't decide to annex the carriage and with luck it would stay that way, which thank the Lord it did.

 

Dave

 

This was why I chose to fly Aberdeen - Newcastle and then take the train to Carlisle when I was in the North Sea. As a rail enthusiast who enjoys rail travel I would have been happy to take the train via Glasgow or Edinburgh but I got sick of drunken and loutish behaviour. People who had been away for two weeks acting like they'd just reached the promised land after 40 years in the desert or survived the Somme or something.  It was bad enough just drinking, then cards would appear.  Aberdeen airport had its moments but the screening and boarding gate People deny entry if it looks more than mild tipsiness.

[AndyID]

A minor embuggerance has arisen. When I had the seizure I clonked my bonce when I fell which started a brain bleed. It was on the right side and it didn't take too long before my left side was exhibiting symptoms of a stroke.

 

Anyway, I'm in a very good hospital and it's possible I'll be heading home tomorrow.

[J. S. Bach]

2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

 ...snip... Whatever we might think now of the ethics of what was done by Bomber Command, the men who flew those aircraft were (IMO) amongst the very bravest of all who served in WW2.

Don't forget the submarine crews (of all sides) that went to sea with almost no chance of survival in case of sinking.

[J. S. Bach]

Night Owl from the Piedmont.

[jjb1970]

19 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

Don't forget the submarine crews (of all sides) that went to sea with almost no chance of survival in case of sinking.

 

There is no room for mistakes in submarines. You are either alive or dead - Admiral Max Horton when he was the commander of the RN submarine force.

[polybear]

VSBT's to @AndyID - hope all gets back to normal PDQ.  Have some medicinal cake to help you on your way....🎂🍰🧁

Bear

[iL Dottore]

6 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Whatever we might think now of the ethics of what was done by Bomber Command, the men who flew those aircraft were (IMO) amongst the very bravest of all who served in WW2.

One of the usual aspects of war - from broadswords to ICBMs is the demonisation of the enemy. This, of course, makes terrible acts - like carpet bombing civilians or mass executions of selected minorities - possible, if not routine.

 

Just ordinary men doing a necessary job to protect their country.

And yet, objectively, the Berlin TENO volunteer and the London ARP volunteer were equally brave, saw equally horrible things and were equally committed to their cause. The SS, the Imperial Japanese Army, Britain’s 8th army, the Red Army Guards Brigades were full of soldiers who were often incredibly brave, took care of their mates, who sometimes sacrificed themselves to save their friends, grumbled about rations and their officers, longed for home and who obeyed orders.

We have a tendency to “big up” our side and “dis” the enemy. And this especially true of those acts that post WWII are termed “war crimes”. The Allies were also not adverse to committing war crimes, perhaps not as a systemic part of the national politic (like in Nazi Germany), but certainly operationally. Morally, I see no difference between Prof Lindemann, Bomber Harris, Reinhard Heydrich or Rudolf Höss. They were all equally committed to utterly destroying “the enemy” and ruthlessly pursued every strategy - no matter how vile - in order to eradicate the threat to their much loved country.

 

As @jjb1970 has pointed out, they didn’t consider themselves as “monsters”,  but rather as “patriots” doing a necessary, and sometimes unpleasant, job.

 

As you may gather, I am no fan of moral relativism. Either something is wrong/criminal/evil/bad or it’s not.

 

[iL Dottore]

Oh Dear, 

 

I do hope @AndyID recovers quickly and without sequelae.
 

I have my suspicions as to what has happened, but let’s await further bulletins from Andy as to progress. I’m sure he won’t spare us the gory details - if so inclined.

 

Anyway, best wishes to Andy for a speedy diagnosis, rapid intervention and an early discharge.

[iL Dottore]

Berlin!

Definitely one of my favourite cities. I’ve visited Berlin a number of times and have enjoyed a luxurious long weekend break with Mrs ID on one occasion. I also spent a very pleasurable afternoon during one medical conference in Berlin riding both the S-Bahn and the U-Bahn as far as I could (on that particular afternoon, there was absolutely nothing of relevance or interest for me at the sessions). Many of the U-obahn stations in the former East Berlin are still pretty much in pre-war condition (at least cosmetically and aesthetically) and provide a welcome contrast to the modern, and sometimes soulless, new U-Bahn stations in the former West Berlin.

 

KaDeWe is definitely a “must visit” as is window shopping along the Ku'damm - although both have prices that would make the average Bear faint (one could say that Ku'damm is the equivalent of Bahnhofstrasse in Zürich, but more fun). Although CAKE at one of the KaDeWe restaurants and cafés is incredibly delicious and abundantly portioned.

 

Quite a few, if not most, of the places I love to visit are capital cities: London, Berlin, Tokyo, Paris - perhaps it’s the energy and excitement of those big cities that so rejuvenate me. Of course, that’s me being a visitor with a generous visitor budget - perhaps I wouldn’t find London as exciting and rejuvenating if I was living in a place like Thornton Heath and not staying in somewhere (ahem) “trendy” like Bankside or Shoreditch.

[rockershovel]

28 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

One of the usual aspects of war - from broadswords to ICBMs is the demonisation of the enemy. This, of course, makes terrible acts - like carpet bombing civilians or mass executions of selected minorities - possible, if not routine.

 

Just ordinary men doing a necessary job to protect their country.

And yet, objectively, the Berlin TENO volunteer and the London ARP volunteer were equally brave, saw equally horrible things and were equally committed to their cause. The SS, the Imperial Japanese Army, Britain’s 8th army, the Red Army Guards Brigades were full of soldiers who were often incredibly brave, took care of their mates, who sometimes sacrificed themselves to save their friends, grumbled about rations and their officers, longed for home and who obeyed orders.

We have a tendency to “big up” our side and “dis” the enemy. And this especially true of those acts that post WWII are termed “war crimes”. The Allies were also not adverse to committing war crimes, perhaps not as a systemic part of the national politic (like in Nazi Germany), but certainly operationally. Morally, I see no difference between Prof Lindemann, Bomber Harris, Reinhard Heydrich or Rudolf Höss. They were all equally committed to utterly destroying “the enemy” and ruthlessly pursued every strategy - no matter how vile - in order to eradicate the threat to their much loved country.

 

As @jjb1970 has pointed out, they didn’t consider themselves as “monsters”,  but rather as “patriots” doing a necessary, and sometimes unpleasant, job.

 

As you may gather, I am no fan of moral relativism. Either something is wrong/criminal/evil/bad or it’s not.

 

I'm going to dispute that in the strongest possible terms. Harris would not have, and did not conduct such a strategy outside the context of major warfare. Heydrich et al, different matter entirely. 

 

The SS were by definition, a politicised military force. There's a good deal written on this subject. They recruited significant numbers of occupied nationals - French, Dutch and Norwegian - for reasons of their own, and these men were all volunteers.

 

 

A short story concerning the 8th Army, from a friend of my late father's, who was there. My father drove a tank transporter, and our heroes were driving along in the aftermath of the Market Garden debacle, part of a unit salvaging wrecked or immobilised tanks along the roadside. 

 

They were accosted by a figure beside the road whilst paused for a "brew up". This figure proved to be a German officer (and by implication, a deserter - they were a good way from any actual fighting). 

 

A short altercation followed between the 2 Lt tank commander in charge of the detachment, and the stranger. The 2 Lt abruptly produced his sidearm and shot the man dead, then mounted the Scammell. The crew took his watch and Luger (a much-prized souvenir) before embarking and driving off. 

 

I still have that watch. The occasion of the story was that my father's friend, and subsequently my godfather, felt that I should have it. He said it was a reminder of what men would do under enough pressure (my father had been on continuous active service since 1938, being a pre-war regular).

[br2975]

13 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Hell's teeth Brian, are you unwell?

.

I thought would shock someone

.

[Winslow Boy]

3 minutes ago, br2975 said:

.

I thought would shock someone

.

Still waiting for the Awe bit though.

[Happy Hippo]

9 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

Berlin?  's easy - take off, head about 100 degrees for an hour or so and bingo! There you are.

 

Dave

In 1984 I was part of a team that parachuted into the Berlin Olympic stadium as part of the celebrations for some athletics event over the Easter holiday.

 

The US Army had very kindly provided a UH-1 as a jump platform, and from 12000 feet the stadium looked quite small. For some reason, probably psychological, it looked even smaller at 2000 feet after free falling for a minute.

[Flying Fox 34F]

Rockershovel’s mention of the SS volunteers reminds me of what happened to my Grandfather at Arnhem!

He was captured by a Dutch Partizan, who proceeded to punch and kick him and would probably have killed him, (my Grandfather was a Medic, due to be blind in one eye)!

During this hell, there was a single gunshot and Dutchmen fell to the ground dead.  A German Officer had pulled the trigger.  He told my Grandfather,  this was not the way of war, and apologised!  Obviously captured and imprisoned, but no more physical abuse.  Ironically, he had a lot of time for Germans and worked with several, but he despised the Dutch!  
 

Paul

[GMKAT7]

Good morning folks,

 

My uncle 'Jack' held the Afrika Korps in higher regard than the Italian equivalent, from his time spent in North Africa with the 8th Army.

 

He didn't talk much about the war, as per many of his generation, but he said that the Germans were always organised as opposed to the Italians.

They sorted out their own latrines, food rotas, etc whereas Mussolini 's boys seemed to CBA.

 

We always called him uncle Jack, but he was christened John and his workmates called him Jerry!

 

Cheers, Nigel.

[bbishop]

10 minutes ago, GMKAT7 said:

Good morning folks,

 

My uncle 'Jack' held the Afrika Korps in higher regard than the Italian equivalent, from his time spent in North Africa with the 8th Army.

 

He didn't talk much about the war, as per many of his generation, but he said that the Germans were always organised as opposed to the Italians.

They sorted out their own latrines, food rotas, etc whereas Mussolini 's boys seemed to CBA.

 

We always called him uncle Jack, but he was christened John and his workmates called him Jerry!

 

Cheers, Nigel.

Same with my father, fought in North Africa, captured at Knightsbridge, and as a prisoner of war assigned to Italy.  He was later transported to Auschwitz when Hitler invaded Italy.  

 

He hated Italians and, once they were finished with family holidays, my parents often went to Austria, sometimes to Germany, never to Italy.

 

Just a thought - a large number of British casualties of the North African campaign died when the merchant ships, in which they were being transported across the Mediterranean Sea, were sunk by the Royal Navy.

[Dave Hunt]

42 minutes ago, GMKAT7 said:

We always called him uncle Jack, but he was christened John and his workmates called him Jerry!

Just to lighten things a little after discussions of war, my maternal grandfather was named Jack, not as a derivation of John but as his given name on his birth certificate. Throughout his life he was beset when giving his name for official purposes by people who said, “Ah, John Taylor,” which he would correct. He would always check when some official was writing his name that they hadn’t changed it to John and once nearly came to blows with a person who kept saying, “No Mr. Taylor, your proper name must be John.”

 

Dave

[Dave Hunt]

No improvement with Jill’s lurgy today so I’ve had to ring Wynne Essery and cancel tomorrow’s visit. The icing on the cake is that I’m now starting to feel rough and I have an appointment at hospital on Thursday to review my spine operation.

 

Bu**er.

 

Dave

[rockershovel]

My grandfather's brother was philosophical about relations with the French in his time (1914-18). He would offer the analogy that if an army of Danes and Belgians had established themselves on a line roughly from Bees Head to Loftus, devastating the area in the interests of driving the Norwegians from Scotland, they probably wouldn't be popular either. 

 

He had seen the French Army in action and regarded them highly. He claimed never to have actually seen a German, being an artilleryman. 

[PhilJ W]

3 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

One of the usual aspects of war - from broadswords to ICBMs is the demonisation of the enemy. This, of course, makes terrible acts - like carpet bombing civilians or mass executions of selected minorities - possible, if not routine.

 

Just ordinary men doing a necessary job to protect their country.

And yet, objectively, the Berlin TENO volunteer and the London ARP volunteer were equally brave, saw equally horrible things and were equally committed to their cause. The SS, the Imperial Japanese Army, Britain’s 8th army, the Red Army Guards Brigades were full of soldiers who were often incredibly brave, took care of their mates, who sometimes sacrificed themselves to save their friends, grumbled about rations and their officers, longed for home and who obeyed orders.

We have a tendency to “big up” our side and “dis” the enemy. And this especially true of those acts that post WWII are termed “war crimes”. The Allies were also not adverse to committing war crimes, perhaps not as a systemic part of the national politic (like in Nazi Germany), but certainly operationally. Morally, I see no difference between Prof Lindemann, Bomber Harris, Reinhard Heydrich or Rudolf Höss. They were all equally committed to utterly destroying “the enemy” and ruthlessly pursued every strategy - no matter how vile - in order to eradicate the threat to their much loved country.

 

As @jjb1970 has pointed out, they didn’t consider themselves as “monsters”,  but rather as “patriots” doing a necessary, and sometimes unpleasant, job.

 

As you may gather, I am no fan of moral relativism. Either something is wrong/criminal/evil/bad or it’s not.

 

Even Churchill's actions could be a bit dubious. As we are aware the Lusitania sinking brought the USA into the Great War. The debate about whether she was carrying munitions is irrelevant compared to the following facts. The seas to south of Ireland in 1917 was the U-Boats favourite hunting ground. For that reason merchant vessels were normally escorted by the Royal Navy and faster vessels such as the Lusitania were instructed to put on full speed and zig zag when passing through the area. However there was no escort for the Lusitania and the captain was ordered to proceed slowly. These orders came directly from the Admiralty but one order that was not sent was to zig zag as there were U-Boats in the area. The Admiralty tried to smear the captain (William Turner) of the Lusitania but the board of enquiry exonerated him. The First Sea Lord at the time was Winston Churchill who would be fully aware of the circumstances. 

[Winslow Boy]

4 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

In 1984 I was part of a team that parachuted into the Berlin Olympic stadium as part of the celebrations for some athletics event over the Easter holiday.

 

The US Army had very kindly provided a UH-1 as a jump platform, and from 12000 feet the stadium looked quite small. For some reason, probably psychological, it looked even smaller at 2000 feet after free falling for a minute.

Hmm I didn't realise that a Hippos reactions were that slow. Eyeball captures imagine at 12,000 feet but brain doesn't register that it's getting nearer till 2,000 feet. Is that the Hippo lag in action?

[iL Dottore]

Prof Lindemann was very nasty piece of work. He had a pathological hatred of Germans (despite being of German stock himself) and - according to one contemporary  "an almost medieval desire for revenge was a part of his character".

 

He didn't think much of his own side either: Lindemann supported eugenics, held the working class, homosexuals, and black people in contempt, and supported sterilisation of the mentally incompetent. He convinced Churchill to divert 56 percent of the British merchant ships operating in the Indian Ocean to the Atlantic - significantly contributing to the Bengal famine.

 

And in regards to his Dehousing policy of the strategic bombing campaign, it was deliberately set up to inflict the maximum amount of civilian casualties as possible - all the name of "disrupting war production" (and found a willing accomplice in "Bomber" Harris)

 

Ironically, and sadly, not only were German civilians casualties, but also many others: POWs, forced labourers, "guest" workers, concentration camp inmates. And the bombing campaign didn't even work effectively: in 1944 - after 2 years of bombing - Germany produced 18,956 tanks of all kinds, compared with only 5,530 tanks of all kinds in 1942.

 

As Nietzsche said "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster"

[Happy Hippo]

15 minutes ago, Winslow Boy said:

Hmm I didn't realise that a Hippos reactions were that slow. Eyeball captures imagine at 12,000 feet but brain doesn't register that it's getting nearer till 2,000 feet. Is that the Hippo lag in action?

There is a phenomenon called ground rush.

 

Once you are in free fall, objects on the ground appear static, so a football pitch doesn't seem to get any bigger.

 

Suddenly at around 3000 feet, you can see the goal lines physically 'moving away from each other' which is a warning sign that you are about 15 seconds from impact should you neglect to deploy the brakes.

 

It happens again at about 50 feet up when the ground then jumps up and bites you.

[jjb1970]

After 30 years I have decided to digitize my old slides. I bought a slide scanner, unfortunately some of them have gone all over the place colour wise. I don't know whether I have been unlucky but Fujifilm slides have aged very badly whereas Kodachrome slides have aged reasonably well. Another thing it has made me think about is the canard that digital storage is a recipe for disaster as we'll lose it all as software advances and hardware goes tango uniform. I see where some of those arguments come from, but looking at my slides I can't help thinking that digital may well be a much more stable storage medium than film for imagery.