The Night Mail

[PMP]

2 hours ago, DenysW said:

Was that really DeHavilland? I lived in Hatfield in the 1950s and the aviation was not Hawker Siddley, at least by name. And the Hatfield->St Albans (Abbey) line still had single track down.

De Havilland became part of the Hawker Siddley group around 1960, and likewise the Manor Road site became Hawker Siddley Dynamics. They were both nationalised into British Aerospace mid 70’s and the Hatfield site very much operated as two different companies and products separated by the runway. The aircraft manufacturing site was inefficient for building airliners as the infrastructure was biased around building smaller airframes. The aircraft manufacturing went to Woodford in Manchester and the site was slowly run down and completely closed early-mid 90’s. After closing it was used as a film set, and then gradually built over, with a large part of the site being taken by Hertfordshire University for accommodation and university needs. 

Subsequently more infill has taken place with commercial and residential development.

Edited June 13 by PMP
Spellin

[AndyID]

9 minutes ago, pH said:

I try to avoid using any mountain road after dark. There’s always the possibility of an obstruction (or a missing bit of road) or of encountering something large and stupid in the dark. (The wildlife can be a problem, too. 😉)

 

We had something like that happen on a suburban highway here about 10AM on a Friday morning. They had a single makeshift lane open into the city in time for most of the morning rush on the Monday, and a lane open each way for the Monday evening rush. They had opened several quarries, rounded up all the dump trucks they could get hold of, and put 17000 tons of rock into the hole over the weekend. 

 

When I moved out West I loaded up our VW Vanagon and started driving from New Jersey. This was in October 29 years ago. I thought it would be fun to swing by Yellowstone and I ended up on a road in Wyoming that went from Dubois to Moran. I left Dubois at around 4pm in sunshine. What I didn't realize is I had picked the highest pass available. It got dark about half way up. There was almost no other traffic on the road and it started to snow, a lot. I made it over the top (9,500 feet) and breathed a huge sigh of relief. I've tried to avoid doing anything quite so stupid ever again.

[AndyID]

This is a view of The Tetons  coming down the Togwotee Pass. (Pic borrowed from Wyoming web site.)

 

[Dave Hunt]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

Not sure exactly when HSD became BAe (Puppeeeeeeers......), but that'll be 43+ years ago.

 

1 hour ago, DenysW said:

Was that really DeHavilland? I lived in Hatfield in the 1950s and the aviation was not Hawker Siddley, at least by name. And the Hatfield->St Albans (Abbey) line still had single track down.

 

I don't know when De Havilland morphed into HSD or then became part of BAe but when I used to go there in the late 70s the place at Hatfield was BAe and I was looking at the development of an A-A missile project labelled XJ521 that entered service as the Skyflash.

 

Dave

[jamie92208]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

I'd be grateful if you could sort that out by Tuesday when I'm collecting my daughter (and all her belongings) from Uni.

 

More importantly SWMBO has instructed me to sort it by Saturday night and to make sure that all the potholes in the Channel have been filled in. 

 

2 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

It was fine until just after lunch.

Since we are off home tomorrow I'm not too bothered.

 

One bit of advice I will pass on is don't expect more than a 30 mph average speed in the county of Dorsetshire. 

 

Since you are in the UK, will you be venturing up into the realms of Dick and Dave's military banter zone?

Absolutely no chance of getting North though two of the three kids have come south.  It has cost grandpa quite a bit. 

 

Jamie

[Dave Hunt]

2 hours ago, br2975 said:

Taxation................

.

Bought our first home in 1978

.

The interest rate then was 17%

.

We got by.

 

I well remember buying our first house in 1980 at a rate of 13% that then went up to 18%. However, we did get tax relief on the mortgage repayments.

 

Dave

[pH]

Our first mortgage in Canada, in 1982, was at 19% with no tax relief. And the value of the house was going down - a ‘bubble’ was in the process of bursting. But that was hard to process, coming from the UK where (I believe) the last time house prices had fallen was in the 1930s.

 

(P.S. Don’t feel too sorry for us - the current valuation of our house in the crazy Vancouver market is about 20 times what we paid for it in that falling market. But, unless we move out of the market, that’s still just a value of “one house”.)

Edited June 13 by pH

[SM42]

It doesn't really matter Iif your home"s value falls as long as you can afford the mortgage payments. 

 

It's only a problem if you have to sell. 

 

A friend is in the position of her property being worth less than when she bought. 

 

It does happen.

 

She can afford the mortgage, so all is good financially, but is a little trapped now as she would like to move but can't afford to with the negative equity effect.

 

 

Andy

[J. S. Bach]

Night Owl from the Piedmont.

[pH]

OK - who is going to be the first to model this?

 

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/859483/

 

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/859482/

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/trains/comments/1cxsazx/aberdeen_carolina_western_railway_converts_former/?rdt=48779

 

Edited June 14 by pH

[AndyID]

5 hours ago, pH said:

Our first mortgage in Canada, in 1982, was at 19% with no tax relief. And the value of the house was going down - a ‘bubble’ was in the process of bursting. But that was hard to process, coming from the UK where (I believe) the last time house prices had fallen was in the 1930s.

 

(P.S. Don’t feel too sorry for us - the current valuation of our house in the crazy Vancouver market is about 20 times what we paid for it in that falling market. But, unless we move out of the market, that’s still just a value of “one house”.)

 

Our first place was a small flat in Paisley purchased in '72. We had a fixed rate low interest council loan (3% maybe?). I was really sad to give up that loan when we moved 😀

[AndyID]

7 minutes ago, pH said:

OK - who is going to be the first to model this?

 

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/859483/

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/trains/comments/1cxsazx/aberdeen_carolina_western_railway_converts_former/?rdt=48779

 

 

That tank can hold a lot of suds.

[iL Dottore]

9 hours ago, DenysW said:

I often disagree with @rockershovel. Not this time. Nail on head comes to mind.

 

It's not what you spend on health (as a country, in absolute terms or £M/min), it's does it work, and are we comparing low-cost-UK (in %-of-GDP) with high-cost AN-Other to push an agenda to spend more/less.

But it doesn’t.

When it fails to successfully treat diseases that are treatable or cure cancers that are curable (see the link in my post above), when you have to wait weeks if not months for an initial consultation and wait more weeks if not months for treatment then it doesn’t matter how little or how much it costs, it’s not a well functioning system. OUTCOMES are the only things that count and there, despite the clinical excellence of physicians in the system, the NHS frequently falls down.

 

Over the 40+ years of my career I have worked in three very different health systems, none are perfect by any means, but in terms of timely access to treatment, treatment outcomes and patient care, the Bismarck system (in Switzerland) does it best.
 

As I stated before, the NHS is like a religion to many Britons and any criticism is seen as blasphemy! But you have to face the facts: the NHS is unsustainable (and unworkable) in its present form. In a recent conversation with a senior NHS oncological surgical consultant (now retired, so no vested self-interest) stated that it was about time the UK ditched the old NHS model and moved to something like the French, Dutch or German models.

 

If Britain does have a grown-up conversation about the NHS (long overdue), it must ask itself “what is the purpose of the NHS in 2024 and beyond?“  If it is to provide the best possible care for the most possible people, then hard, unpopular and unpalatable decisions will have to be made (e.g. should the NHS provide liver transplants to unreformed alcoholics who will destroy their transplanted liver through continued drinking? Should cosmetic surgery be provided to someone just because of the “emotional stress and trauma” of having a body part not as desired?”)

 

IF Britain wants a functioning NHS, the easiest short-term fixes would include

• cancelling ALL student debt of Doctors, Nurses and other healthcare professionals currently in the NHS
• Increase the number of places in medical school, nursing school etc and have the Government pay for their training
• Let local authorities set their own healthcare targets and priorities, not Whitehall.
• Negotiate with the unions for a deal that would see a significant increase in pay in exchange for the easy firing of those found to be incompetent or lazy
• Make senior NHS accountable for everything that goes on under their watch.

Edited June 14 by iL Dottore
Text change

[monkeysarefun]

13 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

And for too many diseases (especially in oncology and cardiovascular disease) the NHS lags behind many other countries, some of which spend less on healthcare per capita than the UK (see: https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/blogs/comparing-nhs-to-health-care-systems-other-countries).

 

 

 

Jeez how did we manage that result down here? I guess all those NHS trained doctors and nurses must  know their stuff, when they aren't off learning to surf  or  taking koala selfies. 

 

 

 

Edited June 14 by monkeysarefun

[polybear]

9 hours ago, PMP said:

De Havilland became part of the Hawker Siddley group around 1960, and likewise the Manor Road site became Hawker Siddley Dynamics. They were both nationalised into British Aerospace mid 70’s and the Hatfield site very much operated as two different companies and products separated by the runway. The aircraft manufacturing site was inefficient for building airliners as the infrastructure was biased around building smaller airframes. The aircraft manufacturing went to Woodford in Manchester and the site was slowly run down and completely closed early-mid 90’s. After closing it was used as a film set, and then gradually built over, with a large part of the site being taken by Hertfordshire University for accommodation and university needs. 

Subsequently more infill has taken place with commercial and residential development.

 

They did a pretty good job with the 146 - although not large by the standards of the time.

What killed Hatfield Aircraft Div. was building in ££ but having to sell in $$ - the exchange rate making the product unviable, sadly.

 

9 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

 

 

I don't know when De Havilland morphed into HSD or then became part of BAe but when I used to go there in the late 70s the place at Hatfield was BAe and I was looking at the development of an A-A missile project labelled XJ521 that entered service as the Skyflash.

 

Dave

 

I had several buddies work on that - you wouldn't want to be chased by one.  There was to be an Active Skyflash version but a certain T0sser blew most of the money on the Test Equipment, leaving bvggerall left for the rocket itself.

 

I came within an ace of being blinded (or worse) by a S/F once when helping a buddy (who "knew what he was doing") - I'm sure a blast of 6000psi Hydraulic Accumulator Oil into the moosh from 3ft away wouldn't have improved my appearance.  I felt uneasy that all was not well and moved with about 3 seconds to spare.

 

9 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

Absolutely no chance of getting North though two of the three kids have come south.  It has cost grandpa quite a bit. 

 

Jamie

 

A Warehouse Buddy is off to Disney Florida for 11 days in a week or so (Jealous?  Moi?) - He + SWMBO + Daughter under five.  Cost?  £600 for accomodation + brekkies + flights with Tui (that's for all three of them).  I call that a very good result.  But.......

 

The Disney passes for a fortnight are £500.  Each.........

 

 

1 hour ago, iL Dottore said:

But you have to face the facts: the NHS is unsustainable (and unworkable) in its present form. In a recent conversation with a senior NHS oncological surgical consultant (now retired, so no vested self-interest) stated that it was about time the UK ditched the old NHS model and moved to something like the French, Dutch or German models.

 

In very small words (no longer than Cake.....) can iD explain the differences please?

 

1 hour ago, iL Dottore said:

If it is to provide the best possible care for the most possible people, then hard, unpopular and unpalatable decisions will have to be made (e.g. should the NHS provide liver transplants to unreformed alcoholics who will destroy their transplanted liver through continued drinking? Should cosmetic surgery be provided to someone just because of the “emotional stress and trauma” of having a body part not as desired?”)

 

 

(a)  No.  NO NO NO NO.  Remember George Best?  Criminal.

(b)  If needed due to illness (such as reconstructive surgery after The Big C), accident or being a victim of crime then Yes.  YES YES YES YES.  But if you want a pair of DD's then Tuff, you pay (but if you've had a lifetime of pain (e.g. backache) and want rid of DD's in favour of B's then yes.

 

Simple.

Edited June 14 by polybear

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, pH said:

OK - who is going to be the first to model this?

 

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/859483/

 

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/859482/

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/trains/comments/1cxsazx/aberdeen_carolina_western_railway_converts_former/?rdt=48779

 

 

Having been following the thread about remotoring a Class 50 with steam turbines 

   I looked at the first picture and thought it was a similar effort involving solar power, those large black sunshades look like solar panels...

 

Then I realised it was a drinking den for sports spectators.  Those steps are going to be difficult for drunks! The operators will have to keep a squad of bouncers to tidy them away when the drunks fall down the steps, and to hose away the vomit...

 

[iL Dottore]

42 minutes ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

 

 

Jeez how did we manage that result down here? I guess all those NHS trained doctors and nurses must  know their stuff, when they aren't off learning to surf  or  taking koala selfies. 

 

 

 

Indeed they do! 

The reasons for a doctor, nurse (or X-ray tech for that matter) to move to Oz, NZ or Canada are numerous and include:

• Much more respect from patients and from “the administration”.
• Better (and more) support from Health System management.
• Better staff to patient ratios.
• Widely available newer (and better) equipment*
• A much, much, better work-life balance.
• A better salary and more reasonable working hours.

The wonder is why not more NHS staff don’t emigrate to Oz.

 

There’s a sort of perverse Karma in this: the UK poaches medical and nursing staff from poorer countries and then Oz poaches staff from the UK…

 

* apparently the NHS is the world’s last remaining big corporate customer for fax machines!

[polybear]

13 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

 

The wonder is why not more NHS staff don’t emigrate to Oz.

 

 

Snakes....

Spiders....

Sharks....

Crocs....

Plants.....

Killer Field Ornaments.....

Mutant Ninja Chimpies....

[iL Dottore]

22 minutes ago, polybear said:

In very small words (no longer than Cake.....) can iD explain the differences please?

 

(a)  No.  NO NO NO NO.  Remember George Best?  Criminal.

(b)  If needed due to illness (such as reconstructive surgery after The Big C), accident or being a victim of crime then Yes.  YES YES YES YES.  But if you want a pair of DD's then Tuff, you pay (but if you've had a lifetime of pain (e.g. backache) and want rid of DD's in favour of B's then yes.

 

Simple.

The Bismarck system is where everyone must buy health insurance, either from a Krankenkasse or a Mutuelle. These are heavily regulated by the government and neither a KK or a Mutuelle can deny you basic coverage (which covers pretty much everything except private rooms, residential rehab when outpatient rehab will do the job, extended “wellness” spa treatments, most “alternative” medicines and treatments).
 

The monthly insurance cost is roughly the equivalent of the monthly chunk of your UK tax that goes into the NHS. All monies raised go into the health care system and can not be diverted by the government into other things and the truly indigent get government support for their insurance payments.
 

Because there is no monolithic structure and health system, there are a lot of “private” service providers (like radiology or laboratory analyses) that support GPs and small - specialised - practices (my GP, for example, is equipped to do basic radiology and laboratory analyses - for more specialist tests - like a PET scan - patients are sent to one of the specialised service providers). Appointments for things as minor as a GP visit or as major as a knee prothesis are done at “mutual convenience”

 

In regards to plastic surgery, the majority of the work done by the plastic surgeons I know is either reconstructive (e.g. post mastectomy) or corrective (cleft palate repair, breast reduction to correct spinal problems caused by over large breasts*)

 

* I was working in pathology one day when two very large bags of breast tissue were delivered to us for a path evaluation. Each bag weighed about 1.5 - 2kg and each bag was the extra tissue removed from just one breast from a patient who had undergone breast reduction surgery to correct some severe spinal problems caused by that weight

[SM42]

53 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

 

* apparently the NHS is the world’s last remaining big corporate customer for fax machines!

 

At least they are relatively immune to cyber attack. 

 

@iL Dottoreis right. 

 

The NHS has become an unsustainable  behemoth as it tried to react and provide for the latest perceived need for free care. 

 

Treatments are now available for conditions that wouldn't be when I was a lad. 

 

The other issues  I see is the regional  centralisation of services, meaning the local hospital could be 40 miles away depending on your treatment . 

 

I can see the logic, but I can also see the logic of keeping things  less centralised. 

 

Here our nearest A&E is just under 20 miles away, the hospital can't cope with the numbers ( we tried to tell them)  so the ambulance service finds itself providing mobile wards whilst the next patient waits  at least 30 minutes drive away. 

 

Years of health one-upmanship by politicians has created a mess. 

 

I remember Norman Fowler rolling out a long list of spending on tbe NHS at conference. 

 

Our hospital was on there. 

 

They had resurfaced the car park. 

 

No mention of the new wing being closed before the roof  had been finished. 

 

Serious and unpopular reform is required, ( likewise the benefits system, ) but no one has the guts to announce it as policy and so the tinkering around the edges will continue. 

 

As for @iL Dottore 's plan, ability to sack those who don't perform is fraught with issues.

Looks good, but who defines good performance. 

Can't see thd unions buying it as there will always be the chance for more pressure from above while everyone looks over their shoulders. 

Not good for good outcones

 

Perhaps if the unions were involved in setting priorities and performance criteria they may have a chance. 

 

Then there is employment law. 

 

Andy

Edited June 14 by SM42

[SM42]

A question I may about the Bismarck system you have.

 

Is the payment in addition to  tax or does the tax burden remain the same and a part is ring-fenced  in  a sort of personal  health insurance account?

 

Andy

[Tony_S]

1 hour ago, iL Dottore said:

apparently the NHS is the world’s last remaining big corporate customer for fax machines!

We had to send a fax of a product licence to a German software company that Aditi wanted to use for her dissertation . At first they insisted on a fax. I got them to agree to a pdf scan after I said I would look for a fax machine  but told them I was surprised such old technology was still available in Germany. I do know that fax still exists in the NHS though. 

[Willie Whizz]

2 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

 

 

 

Jeez how did we manage that result down here? I guess all those NHS trained doctors and nurses must  know their stuff, when they aren't off learning to surf  or  taking koala selfies. 

 

 

 

NHS staff who have been trained (substantially) at Government and Taxpayer expense should be handcuffed to work in the NHS for five years at least before they are allowed to take their skills overseas. If they want to go sooner, they should repay a pro-rata part of their training costs. If they bu%%er off anyway, they should forfeit their pension pots, NHS and State. 

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

 

Snakes....

Spiders....

Sharks....

Crocs....

Plants.....

Killer Field Ornaments.....

Mutant Ninja Chimpies....

 

Well spotted Bruce!

 

[DenysW]

52 minutes ago, SM42 said:

Is the payment in addition to  tax

Accepting the £160 Bn price tag of the NHS (I thought it was a touch lower, but not enough to argue about) spread over the 30 million in work, then just the NHS needs a bit under £3,000/year/income-tax payer. And it's still cheap!