The Night Mail

[New Haven Neil]

Always known as 'Banana repeaters' to us as young spotters.  I recall some on the sharp curve out of Gateshead heading towards Felling, and once a highly strung mother in the front seat of the Met-Cam DMU with her snotty kids, crying out the driver had passed a signal at danger. #sigh#  The red around the corner was always cleared as we approached, it was a 10mph curve anyway.

[SM42]

41 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

That is the electronic version of the national speed Limit sign.

 

It tends to show orange and black at night and more of a lemony yellow during daylight.

 

But the legally recognised sign is black on white  

Not black on orange or lemony yellow. 

 The look and size of signs is legally defined. 

 

35 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Any change from the posted speed limit, where a temporary lower limit is required, has to be applied for by the contractor and approved by the highway authority responsible for the area.  It's a bit like planning permission!  Once this is granted, a public notice will appear, they used to appear in neswpapers, but I don't know where they appear now.  The permanant signs are blanked out by spray paint or a cover and temporary signs are installed.  The temporary restriction then lasts as long as the application.

 

This is why you sometimes find road works that have been completed are still subject to a seemingly pointless restriction:  The works have been completed early, but the applied for period of restriction is still in force.

 

 

Of course this relies on drivers reading all the local papers from the last month for their journey. 

 

The limit should be adequately signed. 

It is a basic principle that information should be conveyed to allow drivers to know what restrictions apply at any given moment. 

 

A squiggle of grey paint over a sign doesn't remove the possibly vandalised sign from not applying ( otherwise any vandalised sign would cease to apply or we could indeed do 80 in the 30)   and hence the conflict between a temporary and seemingly vandalised sign creates confusion. 

 

I wonder if it's a defence that would fly?

Probably not,  but you never know.

 

The Germans turn their signs through 90 degrees on the post and add a enough temporary signs to avoid any doubt. 

 

Non motorway special roads are also quite interesting when it comes to posting speed limits.

 

24 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Sad that a 'BR' suffix is needed to tell drivers that it is a banner repeater...

 

It's not for that 

 

It's to differentiate the signal from the identically numbered, save for the BR, main aspect. 

If a person trackside says they are by a signal, quoting a number,  then the BR immediately identifies the correct signal. 

 

It also assists in identifying the asset correctly for both maintenance and fault finding and on wiring plans and control tables. 

 

Andy

[Compound2632]

36 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Sad that a 'BR' suffix is needed to tell drivers that it is a banner repeater...

 

But those plates are not just driver information but also inventory identifiers. [EDIT: as Andy said.] Next time you're stopped at traffic lights, look for their ID numbers. Before long, you'll be spotting lamppost numbers too. (Better get a dog to cover your numerological addiction.)

Edited February 10, 2023 by Compound2632

[Happy Hippo]

2 minutes ago, SM42 said:

 

But the legally recognised sign is black on white  

Not black on orange or lemony yellow. 

 The look and size of signs is legally defined. 

 

 

 

Of course this relies on drivers reading all the local papers from the last month for their journey. 

 

The limit should be adequately signed. 

It is a basic principle that information should be conveyed to allow drivers to know what restrictions apply at any given moment. 

 

A squiggle of grey paint over a sign doesn't remove the possibly vandalised sign from not applying ( otherwise any vandalised sign would cease to apply or we could indeed do 80 in the 30)   and hence the conflict between a temporary and seemingly vandalised sign creates confusion. 

 

I wonder if it's a defence that would fly?

Probably not,  but you never know.

 

The Germans turn their signs through 90 degrees on the post and add a enough temporary signs to avoid any doubt. 

 

Non motorway special roads are also quite interesting when it comes to posting speed limits.

 

 

It's not for that 

 

It's to differentiate the signal from the identically numbered, save for the BR, main aspect. 

If a person trackside says they are by a signal, quoting a number,  then the BR immediately identifies the correct signal. 

 

It also assists in identifying the asset correctly for both maintenance and fault finding and on wiring plans and control tables. 

 

Andy

Best you look at the latest Highway Code: Rules 255 -258, which now shows enforcable signage as both black and white and orange and black on electronic overhead gantries.

 

It is a well known fact and has been proved many times in court that ignorance is not an excuse.

 

The  highways authority meet their obligation in publicly posting the new temporary speed restriction for the road in question.  It is up to you to follow what signage has been laid out.  I would suggest that a series of over sprayed speed restriction signs in a set of roadworks, accompanied by portable temporary speed restriction signs, would be placed legally, or alternatively, a highly organised vandal with Bond Villain type funding and resources.

 

The cost of a paint job that is wipe clear with a solvent is far quicker, and therefore cheaper than employing a team of men to loosen and turn a road sign through 90 degrees, and then have to reverse the action when it's all finished. 

[Tony_S]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

spotting lamppost numbers too.

I know the number of the one outside our house having had to repeatedly enter it into online forms or emails in attempts to get it fixed. 

[SM42]

3 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Best you look at the latest Highway Code: Rules 255 -258, which now shows enforcable signage as both black and white and orange and black on electronic overhead gantries.

 

It is a well known fact and has been proved many times in court that ignorance is not an excuse.

 

The  highways authority meet their obligation in publicly posting the new temporary speed restriction for the road in question.  It is up to you to follow what signage has been laid out.  I would suggest that a series of over sprayed speed restriction signs in a set of roadworks, accompanied by portable temporary speed restriction signs, would be placed legally, or alternatively, a highly organised vandal with Bond Villain type funding and resources.

 

The cost of a paint job that is wipe clear with a solvent is far quicker, and therefore cheaper than employing a team of men to loosen and turn a road sign through 90 degrees, and then have to reverse the action when it's all finished. 

 

Well I've just looked at the latest online version  on gov.uk and no mention. 

Perhaps the government aren't showing the latest version online

 

Seems odd that the government hasn't sent me an updated version either.  They've got my address after all. 

 

However the Highway Code is not the law  

 

Road signs are covered by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Diections and the only " national speed limit applies " sign in there is black on white ( diagram 671). 

 

I haven't found an amendment to that yet and no mention  made under signs for motorways .

 

If anyone can point it out I'd be grateful

 

The intricacies of traffic law are many and varied and I doubt anyone knows it all ( The Highway Code gives a good workaday guide) and even those who should know or check ( Highways authorities) when signing the roads get caught out.  

 

Hours of fun  to be had in the RTA, TSRGD and Construction  and Use regs. 

 

Andy

[Tony_S]

https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/motorway-signals.html

and

 

https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/light-signals-controlling-traffic.html

 

both are latest updates valid for 2023.

 

May possibly help. However I am not a lawyer so wouldn’t like to comment on the consequence of not obeying something in the Highway Code.

[Happy Hippo]

I think I've tracked down the apparent anomoly:

 

Overhead gantries are either off, or display temporary speed restrictions.  Once the restriction has been lifted the appropriate gantry will show a NSL sign.  the next gantry in line should be blank.

 

The  overhead gantries only display red and white, no illumination of the matrix shows as black, so they can show the speed restriction or the NSL.  however, if you look carefully at then when they are active you will see that although the red disc surrounding the sign is correct the colours of the background and the numbers are actually reversed!  White letters on a black back ground instead of vice versa. I don't think there is any argument that these are not accepted as official and legal road signage.

 

In addition you have information signs either cantilevered from the side of the road or sitting above an existing gantry. These supplement the gantry signs, either reinforcing the signs or supplying additional information.  The colours of these matrix are red and orange/yellow.  I assume they are this colour as they tend to stand out more in poorer visibility.

 

For instance:

 

 

When the incident is cleared the display will show a an orange yellow disc with a diagonal on a black background.  It may not be 'legal' as a stand alone sign, but it's legality is assured because it is a supplementary sign displaying the same information as the overhead gantry.

 

I've just seen what Tony has pointed out and the links to the signage from the latest HC in his links.

 

Brian and Jamie will both point out that the HC is generally considered to be best practice.  However, there are certain sections within it which if one was to ignore would end up in court (if caught).

 

The term 'you should not' refers to ignoring this best practice.

 

However,  when the HC refers to 'you must not' it is linked to parts of the Road Traffic Act in it's various guises which is legally enforceable.

[Compound2632]

48 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

However,  when the HC refers to 'you must not' it is linked to parts of the Road Traffic Act in it's various guises which is legally enforceable.

 

Which, in the context of the current discussion, is wording used only of the red X.

 

But it is clearly the intention of the signage to indicate a speed restriction; on smart motorways (the M42 being the one with which I am most familiar) there are speed cameras at regular intervals. So what are we saying here? That I cannot be prosecuted for driving at 70 mph on the smart section of the M42 when the overhead lane-specific signs are displaying 40 mph?

 

All I can say to that is, chance would be a fine thing...

[New Haven Neil]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Before long, you'll be spotting lamppost numbers too. (Better get a dog to cover your numerological addiction.)

 

The Manx Electric Railway staff navigate by traction pole numbers - 'there's a dropped joint at pole 734'.  There are just short of a thousand poles on the 17 mile MER.

[SM42]

I am confident the red circle with a numeral on a black background is covered in the legislation.( TSRGD 2016)  It's in the detail rather than a picture  AIUI but I believe it is covered. 

 

The orange disc crossed out isn't as far as I can see, however it could be argued that it is in the spirit rather than strict observance of the law. 

 

The A55 in North Wales is about the only road in the UK I can think of where you will see 70 on a speed limit sign.

 

A national speed limit sign would mean some very  rapid progress could be made out of Rhyl

 

Andy

[SM42]

Tony S' s links also show an anomaly that occurred in Wobrn Sands) that just goes to show how these things can get mixed up.

( go from traffic light signals link back to signs and signals and then signs that give orders))

 

A 20 mph limit was imposed and the local authority specified to the contractor which sign should be used to indicate the limit, referring to an illustration in the regs. 

 

Hence the contractor created the sign as requested and Beesworth was put on the map. 😁

https://www.roads.org.uk/blog/theres-no-such-thing-beesworth

 

That's also a fascinating website that you could lose hours in

 

Andy

Edited February 10, 2023 by SM42
To change location and found the link

[Happy Hippo]

15 minutes ago, SM42 said:

I am confident the red circle with a numeral on a black background is covered in the legislation.( TSRGD 2016)  It's in the detail rather than a picture  AIUI but I believe it is covered. 

 

The orange disc crossed out isn't as far as I can see, however it could be argued that it is in the spirit rather than strict observance of the law. 

 

The A55 in North Wales is about the only road in the UK I can think of where you will see 70 on a speed limit sign.

 

A national speed limit sign would mean some very  rapid progress could be made out of Rhyl

 

Andy

Don't be rude about Rhyl, you'll upset Bill (Bishop).

 

Sorry that rhymed which was not the intention.

 

The A55 is also one of the few roads(not motorways) in the UK where certain sections are prohibited to certain road users.

 

[DenysW]

23 minutes ago, SM42 said:

A national speed limit sign would mean some very  rapid progress could be made out of Rhyl

To cement my reputation as a boring humorless old f**t, I should point out that you are allowed to drive at reckless idiotic speed, or at/below the speed limit, whichever is slower.

[Tony_S]

There are quite a few roads round here and some flyovers in east London with the no horse and cart symbol. Parts of the A127 do,seem to have been used for trotting races or practice on occasions.  

[Happy Hippo]

28 minutes ago, Tony_S said:

There are quite a few roads round here and some flyovers in east London with the no horse and cart symbol. Parts of the A127 do,seem to have been used for trotting races or practice on occasions.  

It does seem to be one of those pastimes of the Caravan Utilizing Nomadic Travellers.

[AndyID]

The county road from the state highway to here is posted 25 MPH but according to our local policeman it's only legally enforceable if there is a record of a "Safe Speed Study". Despite that I have no intention of testing that argument.

[AndyID]

I still find it odd that the UK still uses miles per hour. Is this an homage to the USA?

 

Mind you, if it was up to me everyone would have to use meters per second.

[SM42]

1 hour ago, Happy Hippo said:

Don't be rude about Rhyl, you'll upset Bill (Bishop).

 

Sorry that rhymed which was not the intention.

 

The A55 is also one of the few roads(not motorways) in the UK where certain sections are prohibited to certain road users.

 

 

Indeed it is a non motorway special road.  

 

I chose Rhyl as it was the first place that came to mind along the A55 that I could spell

 

11 minutes ago, AndyID said:

I still find it odd that the UK still uses miles per hour. Is this an homage to the USA?

 

Mind you, if it was up to me everyone would have to use meters per second.

 

May we remind you who invented the USA. 

 

Andy

[J. S. Bach]

Over here we have the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control Devices:

 

https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/ser-pubs.htm

 

Somewhere, I have (had?) an earlier version; it is thicker than the Manhattan yellow pages!

Edited February 10, 2023 by J. S. Bach

[Tony_S]

1 hour ago, J. S. Bach said:

thicker than the Manhattan yellow pages!

Our version of the Yellow Pages got thinner and thinner each year until it finally disappeared as too did a paper telephone directory. 

[rockershovel]

2 hours ago, AndyID said:

I still find it odd that the UK still uses miles per hour. Is this an homage to the USA?

 

Mind you, if it was up to me everyone would have to use meters per second.

No, it's because we've always used mph and see no reason to change. The US copied us, knowing a good idea when they saw one. 

[SM42]

48 minutes ago, Tony_S said:

Our version of the Yellow Pages got thinner and thinner each year until it finally disappeared as too did a paper telephone directory. 

 

Amazingly we had a telephone directory delivered last week. 

 

Makes a change. 

 

Last time I was at the tip, the paper skip was full of new copies. 

 

When we moved into SM42 Towers the loft contained 250 1989 editions.

 

They surprised the dustman when he tried to move the recycling bin

.

 

Andy

[Tony_S]

1 minute ago, SM42 said:

 

Amazingly we had a telephone directory delivered last week. 

 

Makes a change. 

 

Last time I was at the tip, the paper skip was full of new copies. 

 

When we moved into SM42 Towers the loft contained 250 1989 editions.

 

They surprised the dustman when he tried to move the recycling bin

.

 

Andy

I knew someone who used to tear phone books (old ones of course) in half. He was quite strong I think. 

[SM42]

6 minutes ago, Tony_S said:

I knew someone who used to tear phone books (old ones of course) in half. He was quite strong I think. 

 

Depends on which way you tear it I suppose

 

Andy