The Night Mail

[AndyID]

6 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

I once dropped a rather good SBD at my in laws house and the dog got blamed. I managed to keep a straight face. However have still not been forgiven for dropping one in a National Trust shop when we were engaged, and walk quietly away.  It was only 45 years ago. 

 

Jamie

 

She's bound to come around in time.

[rockershovel]

6 hours ago, br2975 said:

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During my absence over the last week, I have been constantly updated by contacts in the underwater / submersible community.

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In fact, I was made aware 'Titan' was missing well before the matter became public -  the delay can be laid directly at the door of 'Ocean Gate' whose support vessel 'Polar Prince' lacked any back-up or rescue submnersible; and the company had no apparent rescue or back-up plans in place.

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From the very beginning, the primary cause was agreed upon as an implosion, which was detected by sonar / sosus systems, at the time the submarine released weights to slow it's descent - but, the weight system was allegedly inherently dangerous, and the weights could have released themselves at different times.

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This was at virtually the same time that ALL 'comms' were lost between 'Titan' and 'Polar Prince' - despite the 'comms' referred to being apparently seperate operating systems

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This was never a rescue mission, but a recovery operation.

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There has been great concern in the undersea and research  community, over many issues surrounding 'Ocean Gate' , Stockton Rush and its' submersible for a few years now.

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I have seen e.mail sourced to a very respected submersible builder, a former colleague and freind of "P-H" (Paul-Henri Nargeolet) one of the most experienced submersible pilots in the world, yet who was lost in the accident - the e.mail is brutally scathing of Stockton Rush, describing him as 'arrogant, narcisistic' and the 'Titan' as a 'Frankenstein's Monster'

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"Luckily" for the victims, their end was instantaneous, and they would not have suffered.

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I can't claim to be a member of the "underwater/submersible community" but I do have a fair working knowledge of deep-water ROV operations, and manned submersible / diving operations at lesser depths and they have very little in common with the Oceangate activities which have been described in the press. 

 

I've been on dedicated ROV vessels, and vessels with properly equipped spreads mobilised aboard them. That's the standard I would apply to any such operation I might be involved in. 

 

I'm afraid that I suspected the worst from the outset. 

 

 

I have once been on board a "tourist" submersible (well, a submarine really, since it made the whole trip under its own power, starting and finishing from a dockside in Lanzarote) and it was rather fun. I suspect that in case of serious issues, we could have opened the hatch and waded back, but the family were greatly impressed. 

 

 

[Happy Hippo]

Another of my rambles, so best pull up a sand bag...

 

Having followed the Titan implosion with my fascination for accidents, their cause and what can be done to prevent such happening again, I was somewhat surprised at the amount of pillaging that has occurred to the Titanic, since the precise location of the wreck was found.

 

Call me old fashioned, but in my eyes,  a lot of what has been recovered and is now displayed in various exhibitions and museums,  goes far beyond the remit of scientific research.  It is simply looting.

 

I feel this accusation can equally be levelled at some so called archaeological finds, where they were swiftly removed from the country where they were discovered, for personal and sometimes financial gain.  However, I am well aware that many archaeological sites showed evidence of looting by locals long before the archaeologists turned up.

 

No doubt the ancient piece of pottery is left for others to marvel at, whilst the rather more exotic and financially valuable precious metal and stones, are quickly removed by the less scrupulous for profit. 

 

Sometimes you will find reports in the press about scavenging operations around sunken warships (I think the last one was HMS Prince of Wales) where salvage companies are removing materiel without consent.  I was unaware that until this century, even designated war graves were not protected from this sort of activity, although it still occurs illegally, especially in the far east.  Since it is the responsibility of the 'host country' to enforce the protection, it is not difficult to see why such looting can still occur.

 

I came across this report recently, and it makes for some fascinating reading:

 

 https://discovery.dundee.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/56863842/Royal_Oak_80_Final_Report_v10_combined_FIN.pdf

 

Within this very comprehensive report was the information that in the late 1950's their Lordships at the Admiralty had put out tenders for Royal Oak to be salvaged and scrapped.  This was shelved after  public outcry.  But they still employed a contractor to remove the four bronze propellers in the 1960s.

 

Quite a few small artifacts have been recovered by amateur divers since then, including the ship's name.  the individual Brass letters being removed over a period of time.  Fortunately, they were not spirited away, but passed onto the local museum where they remain on display to this day.  No doubt, there are other bits that ended up in private collections.  The Royal Navy recovered the ship's bell before that ended up in the hands of a collector.

 

Eventually an exclusion zone was put in place around Royal Oak, and any diving on or in the immediate vicinity of the wreck is only allowed with permission of the MoD.

 

Yet it was only in 2002 that the Royal Oak wreck site, along with many others, was granted protection under the Protection of Military Remains Act.

 

Titanic and her ilk, do not have any such protection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Happy Hippo

[jamie92208]

I think that Their Lordships allowed some salvage from Royal Oaksome years ago to get at pre WW2 steel.  This is now apparently the main target of such pillagers.  This is particularly the case for Prince if Wales and Renown where the removal has been by vessels from a large country north of the site.  Believe thatIa warship sunk in the battle of the Java Sea has almost completely disappeared.  

 

Jamie

[polybear]

8 hours ago, bbishop said:

Personally I  would let them at each other for an hour then call the coroner. 

 

I'd not bother the Coroner, just cremate them in the car park and let the teams play for the ashes the following year.

 

7 hours ago, br2975 said:

I have seen e.mail sourced to a very respected submersible builder, a former colleague and freind of "P-H" (Paul-Henri Nargeolet) one of the most experienced submersible pilots in the world, yet who was lost in the accident - the e.mail is brutally scathing of Stockton Rush, describing him as 'arrogant, narcisistic' and the 'Titan' as a 'Frankenstein's Monster'

 

What I find incredible is that P-H decided to go down in the thing in the first place.

 

32 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Sometimes you will find reports in the press about scavenging operations around sunken warships (I think the last one was HMS Prince of Wales) where salvage companies are removing materiel without consent.  I was unaware that until this century, even designated war graves were not protected from this sort of activity, although it still occurs illegally, especially in the far east.  Since it is the responsibility of the 'host country' to enforce the protection, it is not difficult to see why such looting can still occur.

 

Such activities have also been carried out for the benefit of NASA at Scapa Flow.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, polybear said:

Such activities have also been carried out for the benefit of NASA at Scapa Flow.

 

Pre-atom bomb steel being valuable for the construction of the most sensitive sub-atomic particle detectors. Steel made since the first bombs has too high a level of background radiation.

[Northmoor]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Pre-atom bomb steel being valuable for the construction of the most sensitive sub-atomic particle detectors. Steel made since the first bombs has too high a level of background radiation.

The same reason why a large batch of U-boats scuttled off Northern Ireland after WW2, were raised and scrapped in the late 1990s.

[Happy Hippo]

19 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I think that Their Lordships allowed some salvage from Royal Oaksome years ago to get at pre WW2 steel.  This is now apparently the main target of such pillagers.  This is particularly the case for Prince if Wales and Renown where the removal has been by vessels from a large country north of the site.  Believe thatIa warship sunk in the battle of the Java Sea has almost completely disappeared.  

 

Jamie

Not necessary, as there was/is still plenty of pre WWII steel in the wrecks of the German Fleet that was scuttled at Scapa Flow at the end of WWI.

 

Historically...

 

Of the 74 German ships at Scapa in 1919, 52 were sunk.

 

Some were later recovered and sold on, others were salvaged and scrapped. 

 

There were also those that were partially salvaged so still feature as wrecks although they are very much incomplete.

 

Add to this the number of other wrecks, such as the deliberately sunk block ships and there is plenty of readily and legally available pre atomic steel without having to pillage a war grave.

 

Scapa Wrecks:

 

 

 

Both HMS Vanguard and HMS Royal Oak are protected sites.

 

UB116 hit a mine and was depth charged with the loss of all of it's crew.  Since it is not intact, it is not classified as a war grave so diving is permitted.

 

 

[br2975]

1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

I can't claim to be a member of the "underwater/submersible community" but I do have a fair working knowledge of deep-water ROV operations, and manned submersible / diving operations at lesser depths and they have very little in common with the Oceangate activities which have been described in the press. 

 

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I was advised 'Deep Energy' arrived on station on the Tuesday with two ROVs, both rated to 3,000m with a 25% safety margin.

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The ROV deployed, reached the sea bed, found nothing, then blacked out.

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My one contact was once approached to  'come and work for Ocean Gate'  -  he laughed, said 'no thanks' and moved on.

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Edited June 28, 2023 by br2975

[Happy Hippo]

6 minutes ago, br2975 said:

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'Deep Energy' arrived on station on the Tuesday with two ROVs, both rated to 3,000m with a 25% safety margin.

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The ROV deployed, reached the sea bed, found nothing, then blacked out.

Apart from a few bits of metal, I should imagine there was very little left that was identifiable.

 

The cynical b'stard in me thinks that the next passenger carrying expedition, down to the Titanic, can bill itself as having the additional bonus of  being able to see two for the price of one!

 

Moving onto happier events, how was your latest trip away?

[Hroth]

I've just been bombarded by an email from Rails offering their latest fake livery/comestible, linking a Dapol 6-wheel tanker and a bar of toffee.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/englands-finest-walkers-nonsuch-toffee-6-wheel-tank-wagon

 

Don't think I'm enticed....

 

[PhilJ W]

It is surprising that only military wrecks are given the status of war graves when there are probably many more civilian wrecks resulting from war that are not given such status, even those that were carrying military personnel or cargo.

[Tony_S]

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

I've just been bombarded by an email from Rails offering their latest fake livery/comestible, linking a Dapol 6-wheel tanker and a bar of toffee.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/englands-finest-walkers-nonsuch-toffee-6-wheel-tank-wagon

 

Don't think I'm enticed....

 

The Treacle Mine a few miles from here is only accessible by road. 

[Happy Hippo]

12 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

It is surprising that only military wrecks are given the status of war graves when there are probably many more civilian wrecks resulting from war that are not given such status, even those that were carrying military personnel or cargo.

I believe that this can be done for civilian vessels if requested, but it is on a case by case basis rather than a block coverage.

 

Theoretically, if a ship carrying PoWs was sunk, then that ship should be covered under the terms of the act, which is for the protection of military remains.

 

The protection is also extended to military aircraft, which has resulted in far fewer excavations at the site of old air crashes where it is believed the remains or partial remains of the crew remain within the structure.

 

 

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

I've just been bombarded by an email from Rails offering their latest fake livery/comestible, linking a Dapol 6-wheel tanker and a bar of toffee.

 

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/englands-finest-walkers-nonsuch-toffee-6-wheel-tank-wagon

 

Don't think I'm enticed....

 

They've just sent me notice of the new Heljan Turntable, reduced by 30% off RRP, to just £249.95.  I'm sorry, TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY QUID?!!!

 

Whatever happened to building the Airfix turntable kit and "powering" it round using some odd-bits of Meccano?  Are there really that many "modellers" out there with so little DIY skill or confidence that they couldn't do that themselves?

 

Perhaps we can look forward to the £500 device that will allow them to sit back each morning while it ties their shoelaces.

[Tony_S]

17 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

They've just sent me notice of the new Heljan Turntable, reduced by 30% off RRP, to just £249.95.  I'm sorry, TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY QUID?!!!

 

Whatever happened to building the Airfix turntable kit and "powering" it round using some odd-bits of Meccano?  Are there really that many "modellers" out there with so little DIY skill or confidence that they couldn't do that themselves?

 

Perhaps we can look forward to the £500 device that will allow them to sit back each morning while it ties their shoelaces.

I have actually got both though the Heljan was a very special offer. Apparently there were people who couldn’t understand the instructions. I have removed the Heljan turntable from my main layout and will use it on some sort of mpd one day. 

[cctransuk]

28 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

They've just sent me notice of the new Heljan Turntable, reduced by 30% off RRP, to just £249.95.  I'm sorry, TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY QUID?!!!

 

Whatever happened to building the Airfix turntable kit and "powering" it round using some odd-bits of Meccano?  Are there really that many "modellers" out there with so little DIY skill or confidence that they couldn't do that themselves?

 

Perhaps we can look forward to the £500 device that will allow them to sit back each morning while it ties their shoelaces.

 

..... or building the Peco turntable and well, and powering it with a cheapo, ultra-low speed gearbox motor off Aliexpress. At scale rotational speed, alignment does NOT require stepper motors and position-monitoring electronics.

 

We are way down the 'Cos we can' road of persuading us that railway modelling is only possible with a new, expensive gimmick at least once per month. We'll include it, charge you for it (even if you don't want it), and pretend it makes little or no difference to the price!

 

Not for me - there's a huge amount of S/H stuff around, now that models are being rendered as superceded on a yearly basis.

 

CJI.

Edited June 28, 2023 by cctransuk

[Tony_S]

The “if you haven’t made it from bits of wire and old bean tins, you are not a railway modeller” keeps on cropping up every now and then. I don’t care whether I am or not. Years ago I complimented someone on something that they had scratch built. I had commented that I couldn’t do whatever it was. He replied it was because I wasn’t trying hard enough. It was actually because at that time I couldn’t due my hands not working very well! What I really like is seeing trains go round  my mainline layout and backwards and forwards on my narrow gauge layouts, or as most of the locos and some of the rolling stock were ready to run, I am happy to say train sets.

I am still really impressed with many of the items constructed by people on RMWeb but I can’t do that so I enjoy the hobby in my own way. I haven’t bought anything for over a month so at may be able to gain some credibility. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Tony_S

[polybear]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

They've just sent me notice of the new Heljan Turntable, reduced by 30% off RRP, to just £249.95.  I'm sorry, TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY QUID?!!!

 

Whatever happened to building the Airfix turntable kit and "powering" it round using some odd-bits of Meccano?  Are there really that many "modellers" out there with so little DIY skill or confidence that they couldn't do that themselves?

 

Perhaps we can look forward to the £500 device that will allow them to sit back each morning while it ties their shoelaces.

 

It never ceases to amaze me that none of the big companies (Purveyors of Red & Blue boxes, for example) offer a decent, accurate UK Prototype Turntable with indexing.  OK, so there are variations - but I'm sure something to please most tastes could be cobbled up.

I suspect the best recent offering was that by ADM - though they've recently shut up shop so that's NLA.

Bear does live in hope of gettin' his paws on an unbuilt Metalsmith T/T kit though.......

[br2975]

5 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

Moving onto happier events, how was your latest trip away?

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Rather splendid, thank you, Santorini is a lovely place.

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We stayed in Kamari, a lovely little hotel with just 27 rooms and 50 yards from the beach - not that we are beach people.

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There are any number of excellent tavernas to choose from locally.

[Dave Hunt]

Unless you have lots of roads leading of a turntable or its location makes it difficult to see, I don't see the need for automatic indexing. My turntable has four roads leading off it and is powered by a Gaugemaster DC controller via a switch that changes it from track power to turntable motor power and through a reduction drive so as it nears the desired orientation I just slow it down and align it by eye. 

 

Dave

 

[Dave Hunt]

1 hour ago, Tony_S said:

...if you haven’t made it from bits of wire and old bean tins, you are not a railway modeller....

 

The body, i.e., platform, boiler, cab etc. of my first ever scratchbuilt model (a 00 Johnson 0-4-4T) wasn't made from old bean tins but from an old Christmas chocolates tin whilst most of the chassis came from some brass cupboard door hinges. Over the years I've collected lots of brass, nickel silver and steel sheet, strip, bar etc. and silver steel for axles from allsorts of sources and to this day most of my 7mm locos are made from what you could call scrap, including tinplate from old tin cans etc. for boilers. I've got a large drawer full of metal sheet, strip and bar and several ice cream tubs full of smaller scraps but a lot of modern tins are plastic coated inside so now I'm rich 🤣I've invested in a sheet of tinplate and hang the expense. Scrooge, me??

 

Dave

[Happy Hippo]

35 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

Unless you have lots of roads leading of a turntable or its location makes it difficult to see, I don't see the need for automatic indexing. My turntable has four roads leading off it and is powered by a Gaugemaster DC controller via a switch that changes it from track power to turntable motor power and through a reduction drive so as it nears the desired orientation I just slow it down and align it by eye. 

 

Dave

 

It is alleged that non Midland locos are wound up on the turntable at speeds approaching gas turbine tick over, before being slowed to take the appropriate road off.

 

Many locos have involuntarily dumped their ashpan after such an experience.

 

'Flying Scotsman', was very appropriately named, as it disappeared out of an open window like a demented Huey helicopter having gained enough lift to overcome gravity.

 

Fortunately, Jill was on hand to catch 4472 in a dustbin.

 

One can live in hope that there it remained.

[Dave Hunt]

2 hours ago, Tony_S said:

The “if you haven’t made it from bits of wire and old bean tins, you are not a railway modeller” keeps on cropping up every now and then. I don’t care whether I am or not. Years ago I complimented someone on something that they had scratch built. I had commented that I couldn’t do whatever it was. He replied it was because I wasn’t trying hard enough. It was actually because at that time I couldn’t due my hands not working very well! What I really like is seeing trains go round  my mainline layout and backwards and forwards on my narrow gauge layouts, or as most of the locos and some of the rolling stock were ready to run, I am happy to say train sets.

I am still really impressed with many of the items constructed by people on RMWeb but I can’t do that so I enjoy the hobby in my own way. I haven’t bought anything for over a month so at may be able to gain some credibility. 

 

In my opinion that is an excellent and thought provoking post. All the arguments about what constitutes railway modelling and what scale, gauge and standards should be used really annoy me. Railway modelling is a hobby, not a competition, and as far as I am concerned the only real criterion for inclusion in the hobby is does it bring someone enjoyment? The fact that I like to scratchbuild in S7 doesn't mean I can't appreciate models of any other type, be they scratchbuilt, kitbuilt, RTR, modified RTR in plastic, metal, cardboard or stale bread. Some of the layouts I admire are in 00, EM, P4, 0F, S7 and a host of other scales, gauges or standards and I don't care what their provenance is. And while I have been involved with operating exhibition layouts my main enjoyment is in making things but I can quite understand someone whose interest is in operation, or even just running trains round and round (which is something I too enjoy occasionally with friends' layouts, particularly when accompanied by a glass of something tasty and a fine cigar). Yes, I do sometimes try to encourage 'hands on' modelling and explain to people who show an interest why I think that finescale modelling is for me but the zealots who insist that only those who scratchbuild in P4 or have layouts with electric locomotives taking power from working OLE or whatever get right up my nose.

 

Rant? It didn't start out as such but I guess it developed that way.  

 

Dave

[PhilJ W]

As much as I like to  make my own models I have never scratchbuilt a model but kitbashed dozens. Sadly I cannot do much modelling now as the arthritis is now affecting my hands so I have to resort to RTR. I wonder what the percentage of railway modellers out there is who have RTR stock running on Setrack and nothing else?