The Night Mail

[Dave Hunt]

34 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

The final point to consider is: If someone is deemed by the state to be so dangerously and irredeemably evil that they should be locked away for the rest of life in something like the Florence ADX "Supermax" prison with no possibility of ever being released - is that more humane than execution?

 

I think that execution may be the more 'humane' punishment in some cases but I find it difficult to look favourably on the welfare of such evil individuals. Life imprisonment without the possibility of release seems more fitting an exchange for the lives such people have taken and the suffering they have inflicted on family, friends etc.

 

Dave

[Oldddudders]

I think that in the present era, when the average family is having to tighten its belt by more than the odd notch, and the innocent poor are at their wits' end, the cost to the state of keeping some unspeakable scoundrel in prison forever and a day has become significant. If his/her guilt has been proved incontrovertibly, could better, far more humane use not be made of that money? 

[DenysW]

8 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

some unspeakable scoundrel

When I were a lad (1960s) the conventional view was that you got 14 years in the slammer for murder. I believe it's now around 20 years as the default. Death was NOT the routine recourse of the judicial system, at least by that time.

 

Are we simply re-stating entrenched positions about the very small minority of a rare crime (murder) where the circumstances are so clear and so awful that much worse than the default punishment is called for? And is life without chance of parole actually worse than death? For most sane inmates.

[Northmoor]

10 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

In fact the GWR were quite ruthless in closing off routes that were not really required once they had control of the vast majority of the SW Valleys traffic.

 

The rot had set in as WWI came to an end.  The huge amounts of coal that had left from S Wales to fuel the Royal Navy was no longer required.  The size of the Grand Fleet  was reduced considerably. Plus there was a shift away from coal firing in favour of fuel oil.  this had a considerable impact on the coal industry, and this knocked onto the railways.

The first point is so often missed by the general public (and most national newspaper/broadcaster journalists) who believe Beeching was responsible for all railway closures, none of which occurred before about 1955 (when he got the BR job, apparently).

 

Your second point is an interesting point in history; until the early 1920s and the progressive withdrawal of coal-fired warships, Britain was actually self-sufficient in oil.

 

2 hours ago, PMP said:

If I may present the opposing view in favour of capital punishment.

I’d suggest, a compelling argument. 

You could argue Black Lace were punished enough.  Probably sick of performing the same few "novelty" singles for a few years, they realised their management had ripped them off and were left with almost nothing to show for selling a lot of records.  

 

2 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

The final point to consider is: If someone is deemed by the state to be so dangerously and irredeemably evil that they should be locked away for the rest of life in something like the Florence ADX "Supermax" prison with no possibility of ever being released - is that more humane than execution?

Agreed, also worth noting that in the USA, with death sentences deferred for years or decades by endless appeals (which do little more than keep lawyers wealthily employed and on television, which is where they seem happiest), some criminals eventually serve a life sentence AND a death sentence.

 

9 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

British law was particularly savage in this regard. The Bloody Code had 21 categories of crime which carried the death penalty (note categories not specific offences) including (but not limited to) Offences against public revenue, including smuggling, Simple grand larceny and allied offences, Burglary and allied offences, Larceny from the person, Larceny and embezzlement by servants, Post Office employees, clerks and other agents, Offences by bankrupts, Forgery of deeds, bonds, testaments, bills of exchange, stocks, stamps, banknotes, etc. Falsely personating another with intent to defraud, Coinage offences, Malicious injuries to property, including arson.

Notable how all those offences could be said to be "Crimes against Money", which is probably a good indicator of the establishment's priorities.

 

My own objection to the death penalty is its' ineffectiveness.  If it worked as a deterrent, no country with it, would ever need to award it.  Criminals are almost never deterred by sentencing, because (virtually) no criminal ever commits a crime if they expect to be caught.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Northmoor

[iL Dottore]

2 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

My own objection to the death penalty is its' ineffectiveness.  If it worked as a deterrent, no country with it, would ever need to award it.  Criminals are almost never deterred by sentencing, because (virtually) no criminal ever commits a crime if they expect to be caught.

There has been some interesting psychological research into the effectiveness of punishment as a deterrent. To make a long story short, it is not the severity of the punishment which is the deterrent, but the inevitability and unavoidability of that punishment.
 

There was an elegant study done where volunteers were divided into two groups and informed that they would get a very mild or a moderate and unpleasant electric shock if they “broke the rules of the experiment*” they said they would keep to. To summarise: those volunteers in the very mild shock group got shocked every time they “broke the rules” and immediately after breaking the rules; whereas the moderate shock group only got shocked once every 20 or 30 times they “broke the rules” and even then not always immediately. At the end of the experiment, the group in the mild shock group did not break the rules at all, whilst the moderate shock group were still breaking the rules.

 

* no eating the donuts until allowed or something like that

[DenysW]

On a much more serious (and contentious note), does eliminating copper and brass accoutrements make p***ier tanks acceptable?

[polybear]

41 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I think that in the present era, when the average family is having to tighten its belt by more than the odd notch, and the innocent poor are at their wits' end, the cost to the state of keeping some unspeakable scoundrel in prison forever and a day has become significant. If his/her guilt has been proved incontrovertibly, could better, far more humane use not be made of that money? 

 

From a 2019 Sun article:

 

"......with high-security jails even more costly to run. At one such facility, HMP Whitemoor in Peterborough, where London Bridge killer Usman Khan was held before his release, £86,871 a year is spent per lag, or £238 a day".

 

"The cost of running jails has been ramped up by a series of bizarre spending schemes in England and Wales, including buying portable fridges and in-cell phone lines for inmates. The phone scheme alone has so far cost £10million and is to be rolled out from 20 jails to 50 by March.

Inmates have also had pay rises for carrying out work. At HMP Berwyn in Wrexham, North Wales — dubbed Britain’s cushiest jail — lags can spend up to £250 from their cells on goods from CDs to groceries. Food in jails has also been upgraded, with spending now double that on hospital meals."

 

If that doesn't deserve a Rant.....

 

 

 

 

[Dave Hunt]

29 minutes ago, DenysW said:

On a much more serious (and contentious note), does eliminating copper and brass accoutrements make p***ier tanks acceptable?

 

But they aren't pannier tanks, they're side tanks.

 

Very nice ones though. What are they?

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

I think that in the present era, when the average family is having to tighten its belt by more than the odd notch, and the innocent poor are at their wits' end, the cost to the state of keeping some unspeakable scoundrel in prison forever and a day has become significant. If his/her guilt has been proved incontrovertibly, could better, far more humane use not be made of that money? 

 

We're all cheaper dead than alive...

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

The following is worth considering....................

.

At July 13th. 1963 tonnages of coal and coke moved in the Cardiff Division had increased from 12,688m tons to 12,993m tons, and of iron and steel from 3,0003m tons to 3,754m tons compared to the same period for 1962.

In total, freight tonnage in the division had risen from 17,329m tons to 18,104m tons.

52% of the Cardiff Division freight receipts are from coal and coke traffic, which totals 19m tons per annum.                                                                                                        

Of these 19m tons,                                                                                                            

3.3m tons goes for export shipment;                                                                                           

  3.6m tons goes to public utilities;                                                                                      

10.6m tons goes to ‘large’ industries;                                                                                

1.5m tons (principally household fuel) goes to 212 coal handling stations and depots; of which only 54 pass more than 7,500tons per year, more than half deal with less than 5,000tons per annum.                                                                                     

Approx 300 block trains run per day.

17% of the Cardiff Division freight receipts are from iron and steel related traffic.                                

It was planned to reduce the facilities handling other traffic to 12 central depots for wagonload traffic, which accounted for 11% of the Cardiff Division’s freight receipts, and 7 depots for sundries traffic which accounts for 2% of the Division’s receipts..                                   

 The likely locations of the wagonload depots (at 1964) were: Ludlow, Hereford, Pontypool Road, Newport, Cardiff, Merthyr, Pontypridd, Bridgend, Swansea, Llanelly, Carmarthen and Haverfordwest.

The likely locations of the sundries depots (at 1964) were Hereford, Newport, Cardiff, Merthyr, Swansea, Llanelly and Carmarthen.

Parcels traffic was to be concentrated (1964) at just Pontypool Road and Cardiff.

.

Many stations along the South Wales Main Line e.g. Ely, St. Fagans even Llantrisant were slated for closure pre-Beeching, as a means to speed up the movement of freight  along the SWML.

.

Many of the 1960s  closures in South Wales were pusued with great vigour, but little foresight as highlighted by David Maidment, who referred topost Beeching 'slash and burn' policy, championed by Stanley Raymond.

.

However, it must be remembered that traffic on certain routes was 'on the wain' - 

eg

2nd. October, 1967                                                                                                           

Glyn Neath – Hirwaun Pond closed. It was being used by only one through train per day,  the 15:30 Aberdare – Jersey Marine.

From 20th. November, 1967  ,                                                                                                   

Caerphilly – Machen closed.

Latterly used by just three Dowlais Cae Harris – Newport trains per day since 2nd. January, 1967.

Trains diverted via Penrhos Junc. Radyr and Cardiff General.       

.

The 'Reorganisation of freight working in South Wales'  (a.k.a. 'Blockplan') identified the many issues, and set out to alleviate them, where possible.

.

As certain Hippos, and local RCTS members know, to their cost- I can 'Bore for Britain' on the late 60s, early 70s reorganisation

 

Bore on, Brian, it is all useful background stuff.  I could probably bore for Earth in the interplanetary olympics about the Tondu Valleys workings of the 1948-58 period.  It is good that somebody knows this stuff and can bore us about if so that we know who to ask when we need to know something about it, and I would respectfully contend that 'Blockplan' had a lot more influence on workings in the area than Tondu's contribuitions a decade earlier, so your boring stuff trumps my boring stuff.

[Northmoor]

35 minutes ago, polybear said:

At HMP Berwyn in Wrexham, North Wales — dubbed Britain’s cushiest jail — lags can spend up to £250 from their cells on goods from CDs to groceries. Food in jails has also been upgraded, with spending now double that on hospital meals."

It's a Cat.C jail so is hardly likely to be "harsh".  Quoted from Wikipedia so probably only slightly more straight than The Currant Bun:

It was designed to house 2100 men and to be the cheapest to run Category C prison in the country, with a projected cost of £14,000 per inmate. However as of 2019, it is still incomplete, only 60% full and costs £36,000 per prisoner each year.

So the substantial fixed costs are divided amongst only 60% of the expected population, therefore it will be more expensive.  However that's long division which is probably well beyond a Sun journalist, let alone most of their readers.

[DenysW]

8 minutes ago, Dave Hunt said:

But they aren't pannier tanks, they're side tanks.

 

Very nice ones though. What are they?

Bavarian outline, a BB II (the Mallet 0-4-4-0) and a D XII (the 0-6-0). RTR by Trix and Roco. Sadly the Mallet was modelled without articulation.

[Dave Hunt]

31 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

From a 2019 Sun article:

 

"......with high-security jails even more costly to run. At one such facility, HMP Whitemoor in Peterborough, where London Bridge killer Usman Khan was held before his release, £86,871 a year is spent per lag, or £238 a day".

 

"The cost of running jails has been ramped up by a series of bizarre spending schemes in England and Wales, including buying portable fridges and in-cell phone lines for inmates. The phone scheme alone has so far cost £10million and is to be rolled out from 20 jails to 50 by March.

Inmates have also had pay rises for carrying out work. At HMP Berwyn in Wrexham, North Wales — dubbed Britain’s cushiest jail — lags can spend up to £250 from their cells on goods from CDs to groceries. Food in jails has also been upgraded, with spending now double that on hospital meals."

 

I suppose it largely depends on whether you consider jail a disincentive for crime, punishment or a vehicle for rehabilitation. I suppose that ideally it should have an element of all three but when dealing with the likes of violent and recidivist criminals it seems to me that the first and last of those elements have already proved to be a waste of time so preventing them from causing further harm to the public becomes of prime importance. Additional to that is the thought that seeing prison as a 'doddle' is hardly a disincentive for others taking to crime so making prison a highly unattractive place may help preventing at least some from going down the same path. Hence, the provision of such luxuries as fridges, phone lines etc. seems counterproductive.

 

37 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

There has been some interesting psychological research into the effectiveness of punishment as a deterrent. To make a long story short, it is not the severity of the punishment which is the deterrent, but the inevitability and unavoidability of that punishment.
 

There was an elegant study done where volunteers were divided into two groups and informed that they would get a very mild or a moderate and unpleasant electric shock if they “broke the rules of the experiment*” they said they would keep to. To summarise: those volunteers in the very mild shock group got shocked every time they “broke the rules” and immediately after breaking the rules; whereas the moderate shock group only got shocked once every 20 or 30 times they “broke the rules” and even then not always immediately. At the end of the experiment, the group in the mild shock group did not break the rules at all, whilst the moderate shock group were still breaking the rules.

 

* no eating the donuts until allowed or something like that

 

This would seem to indicate that swift and inescapable punishment, even though it may be restricted in its severity, would be a way of deterring petty criminals from continuing with a life of crime before they become much more serious offenders; oh that the police had the manpower and the courts the wherewithal to ensure it. 

 

Dave

 

[br2975]

6 hours ago, polybear said:

 

Whilst there is the very real risk of an innocent person going to the hangman, under the current scheme there is the very real risk that someone (guilty) gets sentenced to life for murder etc. (where, under the "old scheme" they probably would have got the death penalty) and then, upon release go on to commit a further murder(s) and another innocent victim dies.  The latter scenario seems to be appearing in the news far too often recently.

 

.

If 'Life meant Life' this sceanario would never arise.

.

I may not support capital punishment,

But

I strongly advocate 'life meaning, life' (not 13 years as it currently equates)

[bbishop]

I'm missing in action for about a week.  B

[pH]

3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

If his/her guilt has been proved incontrovertibly, could better, far more humane use not be made of that money? 

“If” is important there. 
 

This site:

 

http://criminalnotebook.ca/index.php/Beyond_a_Reasonable_Doubt

 

says:

 

The standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" (BARD) is a common law standard of proof in criminal matters.

and gives this description:

 

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt "it does not involve proof to an absolute certainty; it is not proof beyond any doubt nor is it an imaginary or frivolous doubt."

 

This dictionary:

 

https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/incontrovertible

 

defines ‘incontrovertible’ as “definitely true and impossible to be proved false”.

 

Therefore a “guilty” verdict in a criminal trial does not establish incontrovertibly that a person is guilty. And convictions being overturned on appeal, or if later evidence comes to light, emphasize that this is the case. I don’t think that standard can be met under the law.

 

Having said that, I think that ‘life’ should mean ‘whole life’, with very, very few exceptions (there are rare cases where rehabilitation appears genuinely to have been achieved, though whether that should lead to release would still be arguable).

[J. S. Bach]

Night Owl from the Piedmont.

[AndyID]

Sometimes it pays to be nice 😀

 

I discovered there were a lot or "vampire" recurring monthly charges on a credit card. My fault for not paying enough attention but I have to admit I find it a lot more difficult to stay on top of things like that these days.

 

Last night I sent a nice email to the CEO (big boss) of the credit card company asking if it might be possible for charges that look like they could be recurring monthly charges to be highlighted or grouped somehow in the monthly statements. I suggested that old geezers like me might really appreciate such a feature.

 

I thought that would that would be the last I would hear of it but the guy replied this morning and said he thought it was a good idea and he was having his tech crew look into it.

[Happy Hippo]

When RMWeb didn't work this morning, my initial reaction was to rush outside to see if the sky had fallen down.

 

But it was bright, sunny and without a breeze, although there is a lot more movement in the trees now with the smaller branches visibly moving around.  Clouds are also beginning to appear, but it still appears pleasant outside.

 

We have visitors coming to stay next week and I have taken a break from repairing and reinforcing three legs that run down the centreline of the bedframe.

 

I have no idea who designed this piece of furniture, but I am convinced they have a PhD in  design stupidity.

 

Stand the bed on it's end and a gentle push with even 7/8ths of a finger on one of the 'uprights' will see the frame transform from a rectangle to a parallelogram.

 

The ideal solution would be to scrap the bedframe and get a new one, although going around 'Beds R Us' and making then stand all their bedframes on end, so I can vouch for their structural integrity, might not go down to well.

 

A temporary fix will have to suffice for now, but a more structurally rigid solution which involves some 18 mm thick ply corner plates and  a new centre beam to support the legs properly * could be on the cards.

 

* As built, just held in place by a bolt through the centre beam which feeds into threaded insert which has been put into end grain. any side loading on the leg causes it to detach.  As I wrote earlier a PhD in design stupidity.

[iL Dottore]

14 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 I could probably bore for Earth in the interplanetary olympics about the Tondu Valleys workings of the 1948-58 period.

Now that’s impressive.

 

Chapeau, mon ami, chapeau!
 

NOTE: I am not being facetious, I truly believe we need people who go into depth in researching the topics they love. Anyone can do a “close enough for government work” jobbie, but excellence requires a little bit more effort.

 

I really think that good research on a topic allows you to understand what you want to do better and that is a great guide to knowing what you must leave in and what you can take out to arrive at something worthwhile.

 

When I built the Georgian Terraced Houses (pictures posted earlier in this thread) before embarking on the build I extensively researched Georgian buildings and their histories - learning probably more than anyone sane would want to know about the buildings and that period (for example: most of the Georgian buildings still standing today were built as “speculators rubbish“ and weren’t designed to last more than 100 years or so; and investing in building property was one of the few avenues of investment open to successful Georgian Courtesans [who were generally very smart, very able and very ambitious women]).
 

Although I am not entirely happy with the result, I am partly assuaged by the fact that those parts which I think are a bit crappy are at least accurate in their crappiness - my abilities and not my knowledge being the weakness.

Edited March 22, 2023 by iL Dottore
Typo

[polybear]

12 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

If 'Life meant Life' this sceanario would never arise.

.

I may not support capital punishment,

But

I strongly advocate 'life meaning, life' (not 13 years as it currently equates)

 

And "Life" should mean a sentence where they don't have their own TV/Fridge/access to a Gym/phone or internet etc.  Ever.  And food should be cr@p - and minimal.  And they should have to work for it.

Oh yes, and no visitors.  Ever.  The families of those they've killed can't visit their loved one.

Oh yes, and weekly random drug testing, with strict punishment (solitary etc.) whenever they test positive.

I could think of a few more, but Bear is in a compassionate mood....

 

 

 

[jamie92208]

hello from the Charente where the sky has not fallen down but much time has been wasted due to the impending day of inaction tomorrow.   Our ferry got cancelled putting paid to plan A, yesterday due to the supposed inaction so Plan D came into play. Thus was after spending two hours on the phone to Brittany ferries trying to sort out alternative Plan B.   They then closed the phone lines and told me in an email that I could apply for a refund.   Plan C was the tunnel but that would still leave us with a long drive in the UK on Friday.   Thus Plan D came into play which is Rotterdam hull via North Sea Ferries.  This leaves us with a long drive today and tomorrow but only an hours drive from Hull on Friday.   Tonight we are heading to Orleans for the night. Then up to Rotterdam on Thursday. Sorting all this out took 4 hours in total but was sorted.  

 

All part of life's rich pattern.

 

Jamie

 

[Oldddudders]

Sherry tells me the BF Facebook page is awash w indignant customers, left high and dry by cancelled sailings. BF seems to have no idea what will and won't be sailing, which given the length of each voyage seems surprising. If the ship hasn't left Portsmouth, then it won't be coming back from Caen, now will it? Unhelpful. 

[Compound2632]

15 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

This would seem to indicate that swift and inescapable punishment, even though it may be restricted in its severity, would be a way of deterring petty criminals from continuing with a life of crime before they become much more serious offenders; oh that the police had the manpower and the courts the wherewithal to ensure it. 

 

Fifteen minutes with a denizen of TMN might do the trick?

[Tony_S]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

and weekly random drug testing,

My neighbours grandson (Richard) is a fair way through his initial army training course. They had a weekend’s leave (Mothers Day weekend) so came to visit his grandparents. Our neighbour said her grandson was given a drugs test on return to Pirbright. I said did he test positive for cake? She laughed as she said he had gone back with a large box of cakes she had made for the other recruits, A lot less than when they started. The first week had been too much for some, getting up at 5 am was a problem. It wouldn’t have been a problem for Richard, at home he would have probably been up that early helping with the animals (sheep/horses/ assorted poultry).