The Night Mail

[SM42]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

 

It's quite possible that @SM42 might not spend his life permanently covered in paint specks either......🤣

 

It's also quite possible that he would not be, ( less than 2 hours after getting into bed after after night shift, ) swapping insurance details over the phone  with a young lady who has just scuffed the rear of Mrs SM42's ride. 

 

Henry is sporting the  little crumpled look  this morning. 

 

Fortunately only metal has been crumpled and nothing else  

 

Andy

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by SM42

[bbishop]

Or if Franz Ferdinand hadn't decided to return to the place in Sarajevo where someone had thrown a bomb at his car.  Bill

[DenysW]

Or if Prussian imperialism had been stopped in 1868 by the British Empire siding with Hanover in the Austro-Prussian war. The Hanoverians did ask for our aid on the grounds that Vicky was descended from Hanoverians, but we'd had a good war recently in the Crimea and declined.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, DenysW said:

Or if Prussian imperialism had been stopped in 1868 by the British Empire siding with Hanover in the Austro-Prussian war. The Hanoverians did ask for our aid on the grounds that Vicky was descended from Hanoverians, but we'd had a good war recently in the Crimea and declined.

 

The King of Hanover was Victoria's first cousin. But the King of Prussia was her daughter's father-in-law.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Compound2632

[Happy Hippo]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Rail nationalisation following the Great War would have more likely been the brainchild of David Lloyd George than Winston Churchill, and Lloyd George was in a far more powerful and influential position at the time.  Some duplicate lines would have gone, but I suspect Lloyd George would have been more concerned with an integrated nationalised network covering road, rail, and waterways.  This is what was actually attempted in 1948, but half-heartedly; Lloyd George would have been less influenced by private industry lobbying.

 

Can't accept that the Heads of the Valleys M,T,&A was a duplicate of anything, much as the LNWR tried to divert traffic off the N,A,&H on to it.  It was more a formalisation and upgrading of the pre-existing tramway network along the 'Top', and an integral part of local industrial and commercial networks in that area, which wasn't always the forgotten failed backwater it is nowadays!  Same may be said (to an extent at least) of the Somerset & Dorset.

 

There were at one time three main line railways, an industrial line, a canal, and two main roads in close proximity to each other threading through the Tongwynlais Gap north of Cardiff.  The three railways are often quoted as examples of wasteful competition, but there was plenty of traffic for all of them at the time, the Cardiff only being prevented from realising it's potential by the TVR managing to stop them with a court order.  Even in the 70s one could see coal trains backed up along the relief on the TVR as far as Taff's Well and beyond in the late afternoon and early evening queueing up on the permissive block awaiting entrance to Radyr Yard, suggesting that, had the Cardiff been successful, it would still have been handling it's share of traffic and relieving congestion on the TV even then.  One man's competition is another man's share of the traffic; is it really competition if you are taking on traffic that your competitor cannot find paths or siding space for anyway?

After the grouping, had the GWR wanted to, they could have built up Treforest Junction and opened up the ex Cardiff Railway back to a through route if they felt there was a need.  It wouldn't have been competition, but might have eased traffic congestion.  But they didn't.  Economically it didn't make much sense.  After the 1920's it effectively rotted away north of Coryton, until there was a brief revival, after WWII after which  a new double track junction was made to connect the new Nantgarw Colliery direct to the ex TVR main line just north of Walnut Tree Junction. Nantgarw was now extracting coal which had previously been worked at Senghenydd.

 

In fact the GWR were quite ruthless in closing off routes that were not really required once they had control of the vast majority of the SW Valleys traffic.

 

The ex Cardiff line was small fry compared to the closure of the ex Barry Railway line from Penrhos Junction north to join up with the ex Brecon and Merthyr at Dyffryn Isaf. Three viaducts (including the mighty Pwll-Y-Pant aka Llanbradach)  on a route that lasted less than 25 years.  The northern end of the Barry from Trehafod junction south to Tonteg, which skimmed along the western edge of Pontypridd was initially retained as a freight route, but  eventually was mothballed and saw little use apart from storage purposes until it was finally lifted in the  late 50's.

 

One of the reasons for the large amounts of coal traffic on the ex TVR line during the 70s was that of progressive closure of alternative routes.  This was all part of the plan for concentration of freight at various yards within the system. Many of the small transfer yards, such as Llancaiach Sidings, Maesycymmer and Peterston/Drope were closed, whilst others such as Radyr Junction became freight traffic  hubs.

 

BR had closed the ex Barry 'main line' from Cadoxton to Treforest Junction (via Tonteg Junction) as a result of the signal box fire at Tynycaeau Junction in 1963.  This also closed the Penrhos branch which ran from Tynycaeau to Penrhos junction and was the line that crossed over the Taff Gap by way of Walnut Tree viaduct.  (The line remained open from Penrhos as a long siding to serve the dolomite works that was perched on the hillside at the Western end of Walnut Tree viaduct until closure about 5 years later.)

 

These route had provided exits for coal traffic from Pontypridd and the Rhymney Valleys  direct to Cadoxton and then on to Barry Docks. 

 

Likewise the line from Pontypridd to Caerphilly and onwards to Newport via Machen was also axed, so this effectively closed another outlet for coal traffic.  Traffic from The Rhymney valley either coming down into Cardiff via the ex Rhymney line into Cardiff (Queen Street) or down the 'big hill' from Aber junction, through the site of the once incredibly busy Penrhos Junction and down to Walnut Tree Junction.

 

The rot had set in as WWI came to an end.  The huge amounts of coal that had left from S Wales to fuel the Royal Navy was no longer required.  The size of the Grand Fleet  was reduced considerably. Plus there was a shift away from coal firing in favour of fuel oil.  this had a considerable impact on the coal industry, and this knocked onto the railways.

 

So the nose to tail coal trains in the 70's actually gave a false impression that the coal industry was still buoyant. Yes, there appeared to be a lot of trains, but that was due to a compression of the rail network due to other line closures that had been made on economic grounds.

 

I might have joined the railway when I left school, but all the family members who had worked for the railway advised against it.

 

Since they were to a man, made redundant with the swing of the Beeching axe, they may have had a slightly jaundiced view.

 

To clear up any confusion.  The current Taffs Well station is located at the site of Walnut Tree Junction. It was the second station of that name, the first being a mile or so north of the present station. For many years the junction's signal box sat on the southern end of the up platform. The station now hosts a tram depot which is being constructed just to the east of what was Walnut Tree Junction.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Happy Hippo

[PhilJ W]

7 hours ago, monkeysarefun said:

"Blackbirding" , the term used to describe the abduction or coercion of natives of  South Pacific islands such as Tuvulu, Fiji, New Guinea and The Solomons to work for little or no pay  on plantations owned by European colonists in Australia, Hawaii, Fiji and Tahiti commenced in the 1840's and continued until the 1930's and later.

 

Modern day blackbirding is still undertaken in Central America where Indigenous people are kidnapped at gunpoint to work as plantation workers. 

The slaves in the British Empire replaced the 'Indentured servants' which was little better than slavery.

[Compound2632]

11 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

The slaves in the British Empire replaced the 'Indentured servants' which was little better than slavery.

 

I'm fairly sure both systems ran in parallel in the American colonies; which system you were under largely depended on your colour. Indenture was for a fixed period, although this could be extended if you were deemed to be incapacitated for a period, e.g. through pregnancy. Masters were not slow to exploit this.

 

The establishment of New South Wales as a penal colony was a result of the loss of the American colonies. With transportation still the favoured sentence for many offences (it being increasingly difficult to get juries to convict for minor offences if the likely sentence was death), somewhere was needed to transport the convicted to.

[iL Dottore]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

With transportation still the favoured sentence for many offences (it being increasingly difficult to get juries to convict for minor offences if the likely sentence was death), somewhere was needed to transport the convicted to.

British law was particularly savage in this regard. The Bloody Code had 21 categories of crime which carried the death penalty (note categories not specific offences) including (but not limited to) Offences against public revenue, including smuggling, Simple grand larceny and allied offences, Burglary and allied offences, Larceny from the person, Larceny and embezzlement by servants, Post Office employees, clerks and other agents, Offences by bankrupts, Forgery of deeds, bonds, testaments, bills of exchange, stocks, stamps, banknotes, etc. Falsely personating another with intent to defraud, Coinage offences, Malicious injuries to property, including arson.

 

Much of the petty (and some of the not-so petty) crime that is prevalent today would merit the death penalty if convicted under The Bloody Code: such as Eco-protests (Offences against public order), tax evasion (Offences against public revenue) throwing tomato soup at a painting in a national museum (Malicious injuries to property) or even YouTube influencers (Falsely personating another with intent to defraud 🤣 😁). So perhaps it is as well that the last remaining offences that carried the death sentence (piracy with violence, treason and 6 military offences [serious misconduct in action; assisting the enemy; obstructing operations; giving false air signals; mutiny or incitement to mutiny; and failure to suppress a mutiny with intent to assist the enemy]) were abolished in the UK in 1998 - presumably part of Tony Blair's "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" approach.😁🤣😉

 

The debate on capital punishment is fraught with emotion, but it's worthwhile acknowledging the following Terry Pratchett quote:

 

"'Do you really think all this [capital punishment] deters crime, Mr Trooper?' Albert Spangler asks him.
'Well, in the generality of things I'd say it's hard to tell, given that it's hard to find evidence of crimes not committed,' said the hangman, giving the trapdoor a final rattle. 'But in the specificality, sir, I'd say it's very efficacious.'
'Meaning what?' said Albert.
'Meaning I've never seen someone up here more'n once, sir. Shall we go?'"

Edited March 21, 2023 by iL Dottore

[SM42]

3 hours ago, bbishop said:

Or if Franz Ferdinand hadn't decided to return to the place in Sarajevo where someone had thrown a bomb at his car.  Bill

 

Or his driver hadn't taken a wrong turn. 

 

Andy

[Winslow Boy]

1 hour ago, SM42 said:

 

Or his driver hadn't taken a wrong turn. 

 

Andy

 

Or the bomb had failed to detonate as happened the previous day I believe.

[rockershovel]

A propos alternative histories of the Russian Revolution, it's not generally understood that the Russians had a Revolution in 1905 which led to a form of Constitutional Monarchy. This was the Duma which led Russia into the increasingly inescapable Triple Entente and hence, commitment to war with Germany in the event of war between Germany and France. 

 

This led in turn to the Revolution of May 1917, and the Kerensky government which continued the war. Had Kerensky opted for an armistice of some sort with Germany then Lenin et al would most likely have remained as little-heeded malcontents living on their not-inconsiderable private incomes in Switzerland. 

 

The consequences are fairly easy to predict. The German March 1918 offensive would have been much the same, because the Russians were out of the War either way. The French would still have been ground down by the 1916-17 offensives, still incapable of defending themselves in 1940.

 

The Germans would still have attacked Russia in 1941 or 1942; they could not afford not to. Whether a senile Tsarist state would have resisted with the ferocity the Soviets offered is doubtful, but no European army has ever conquered Russia.... 

 

The great unknowable here is the post-WW2 settlement, leaving the USA dominant with no ideological enemy... 

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

A propos alternative histories of the Russian Revolution, it's not generally understood that the Russians had a Revolution in 1905 which led to a form of Constitutional Monarchy.

 

There's a whole symphony about that; here's 9th Jan (Julian Calendar), Bloody Sunday:

 

 

 

[br2975]

5 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

 

 

One of the reasons for the large amounts of coal traffic on the ex TVR line during the 70s was that of progressive closure of alternative routes.  This was all part of the plan for concentration of freight at various yards within the system. Many of the small transfer yards, such as Llancaiach Sidings, Maesycymmer and Peterston/Drope were closed, whilst others such as Radyr Junction became freight traffic  hubs.

 

 

.

The following is worth considering....................

.

At July 13th. 1963 tonnages of coal and coke moved in the Cardiff Division had increased from 12,688m tons to 12,993m tons, and of iron and steel from 3,0003m tons to 3,754m tons compared to the same period for 1962.

In total, freight tonnage in the division had risen from 17,329m tons to 18,104m tons.

52% of the Cardiff Division freight receipts are from coal and coke traffic, which totals 19m tons per annum.                                                                                                        

Of these 19m tons,                                                                                                            

3.3m tons goes for export shipment;                                                                                           

  3.6m tons goes to public utilities;                                                                                      

10.6m tons goes to ‘large’ industries;                                                                                

1.5m tons (principally household fuel) goes to 212 coal handling stations and depots; of which only 54 pass more than 7,500tons per year, more than half deal with less than 5,000tons per annum.                                                                                     

Approx 300 block trains run per day.

17% of the Cardiff Division freight receipts are from iron and steel related traffic.                                

It was planned to reduce the facilities handling other traffic to 12 central depots for wagonload traffic, which accounted for 11% of the Cardiff Division’s freight receipts, and 7 depots for sundries traffic which accounts for 2% of the Division’s receipts..                                   

 The likely locations of the wagonload depots (at 1964) were: Ludlow, Hereford, Pontypool Road, Newport, Cardiff, Merthyr, Pontypridd, Bridgend, Swansea, Llanelly, Carmarthen and Haverfordwest.

The likely locations of the sundries depots (at 1964) were Hereford, Newport, Cardiff, Merthyr, Swansea, Llanelly and Carmarthen.

Parcels traffic was to be concentrated (1964) at just Pontypool Road and Cardiff.

.

Many stations along the South Wales Main Line e.g. Ely, St. Fagans even Llantrisant were slated for closure pre-Beeching, as a means to speed up the movement of freight  along the SWML.

.

Many of the 1960s  closures in South Wales were pusued with great vigour, but little foresight as highlighted by David Maidment, who referred topost Beeching 'slash and burn' policy, championed by Stanley Raymond.

.

However, it must be remembered that traffic on certain routes was 'on the wain' - 

eg

2nd. October, 1967                                                                                                           

Glyn Neath – Hirwaun Pond closed. It was being used by only one through train per day,  the 15:30 Aberdare – Jersey Marine.

From 20th. November, 1967  ,                                                                                                   

Caerphilly – Machen closed.

Latterly used by just three Dowlais Cae Harris – Newport trains per day since 2nd. January, 1967.

Trains diverted via Penrhos Junc. Radyr and Cardiff General.       

.

The 'Reorganisation of freight working in South Wales'  (a.k.a. 'Blockplan') identified the many issues, and set out to alleviate them, where possible.

.

As certain Hippos, and local RCTS members know, to their cost- I can 'Bore for Britain' on the late 60s, early 70s reorganisation

Edited March 21, 2023 by br2975

[br2975]

3 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

 

The debate on capital punishment is fraught with emotion,

.

.

Not for me it isn't.

.

Crimes are committed by humans.

The victims are invariably human.

The witnesses are human.

The investigators are human.

The judges are human.

The juries are human.

.

All of the above, being human are gifted with human frailties, and human prejudices.

.

In my mind, it only takes the execution of one innocent man (or woman) following a miscarriage of justice, to negate the argument for 'capital punishment'

.

Unlike (probably) any other member of TNM, I have investigated murders, and on one occasion, the convictions were overturned, as being unsound.

Another man, who didn't feature in the original enquiry later admitted the offence.

 

"Nothing concentrates a man's mind like knowing he hangs in the morning" - but imagine his mind if he knows he is innocent ?

[polybear]

1 hour ago, br2975 said:

.

Not for me it isn't.

.

Crimes are committed by humans.

The victims are invariably human.

The witnesses are human.

The investigators are human.

The judges are human.

The juries are human.

.

All of the above, being human are gifted with human frailties, and human prejudices.

.

In my mind, it only takes the execution of one innocent man (or woman) following a miscarriage of justice, to negate the argument for 'capital punishment'

.

Unlike (probably) any other member of TNM, I have investigated murders, and on one occasion, the convictions were overturned, as being unsound.

Another man, who didn't feature in the original enquiry later admitted the offence.

 

"Nothing concentrates a man's mind like knowing he hangs in the morning" - but imagine his mind if he knows he is innocent ?

 

Whilst there is the very real risk of an innocent person going to the hangman, under the current scheme there is the very real risk that someone (guilty) gets sentenced to life for murder etc. (where, under the "old scheme" they probably would have got the death penalty) and then, upon release go on to commit a further murder(s) and another innocent victim dies.  The latter scenario seems to be appearing in the news far too often recently.

 

I certainly think there's a sound argument for having a death penalty where the accused is most definitely "banged to rights" and of a nature serious enough that under the current system they receive a whole-life sentence, or alternatively are a repeat offender involving a serious offence involving violence, terrorism etc.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, polybear said:

Whilst there is the very real risk of an innocent person going to the hangman, under the current scheme there is the very real risk that someone (guilty) gets sentenced to life for murder etc. (where, under the "old scheme" they probably would have got the death penalty) and then, upon release go on to commit a further murder(s) and another innocent victim dies.  The latter scenario seems to be appearing in the news far too often recently.

 

That, as far as I can see, is chiefly due to lack of resources, coupled with, probably consequent, mismanagement. With capital punishment there is no opportunity for reformation and social rehabilitation.

 

11 minutes ago, polybear said:

I certainly think there's a sound argument for having a death penalty where the accused is most definitely "banged to rights" and of a nature serious enough that under the current system they receive a whole-life sentence, or alternatively are a repeat offender involving a serious offence involving violence, terrorism etc.

 

Would you really want to be a juror in a capital case?

[polybear]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Would you really want to be a juror in a capital case?

 

Does Bear need to answer that one......

If they were a totally evil b'sterd I'd have no worries whatsoever.

 

edit:  What's the saying?  "If you can't do the time then...."

Edited March 21, 2023 by polybear

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, polybear said:

If they were a totally evil b'sterd I'd have no worries whatsoever.

 

What would you have done but to descend to their level?

[polybear]

26 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

What would you have done but to descend to their level?

 

Or perhaps it's punishment for what they've done and protecting society from them ever being able to do it again.

 

As regards being a Juror in such a case, I think we ask far more of our Armed Forces every time they are sent into combat based on decisions made in Parliament etc.

 

[PMP]

2 hours ago, br2975 said:

In my mind, it only takes the execution of one innocent man (or woman) following a miscarriage of justice, to negate the argument for 'capital punishment'

If I may present the opposing view in favour of capital punishment.

I’d suggest, a compelling argument. 

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, PMP said:

If I may present the opposing view in favour of capital punishment.

 

I’d suggest, a compelling argument. 

 

I thought death as a punishment for offending against public taste went out with Nero.

[PMP]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I thought death as a punishment for offending against public taste went out with Nero.

The above is a crime against humanity, all bets are off.

[Dave Hunt]

I think that we've just opened a real can of worms. The subject of capital punishment is one that could quite possibly end up with heated argument and even after much of that I doubt whether anyone would be persuaded from the viewpoint they held at the beginning. I used to be in the hang 'em camp but with old age my view has changed, albeit not from wishing less ill on those guilty of capital crimes. Rather I have come to see the possibility of wrongful conviction as something that I would not like to see were it to lead to an innocent person losing their life BUT I do want to see the guilty pay and it occurs that to spend the rest of their lives in prison may be a suitable exchange for the life they took. Providing, that is, that life meant life and not a twelve year (or even less) sojourn before being released. It would also, of course, enable a change of conviction if new or better evidence came to light.

 

Dave

[iL Dottore]

Some interesting philosophical topics being raised in the posts above.

 

I think, firstly, we should consider whether or not an Utilitarianism is an appropriate approach for a state actor (e.g. country or group of countries). Jeremy Bentham said of "Utility" <That property in any object, whereby it tends to produce benefit, advantage, pleasure, good, or happiness ... [or] to prevent the happening of mischief, pain, evil, or unhappiness to the party whose interest is considered>. As philosophers have grappled with this, it has morphed (in many philosophies) to being <doing the most good for the most people> which implies, by default, that "whilst some may lose, most will benefit". In other words (to paraphrase Star Trek) "the good of the many outweighs the good of the few".

 

The second point to consider is "is it the duty and responsibility of a country to protect itself ["itself" being both the entity and the citizens] from all things inimical to the well being and survival of itself" If the answer is "yes" then shouldn't this encompass both external and INternal dangers? At a purely utilitarian level what is the difference between the state (as embodied by and in the military) killing an enemy soldier who has killed (or tried to kill) your fellow citizens (whether soldiers or civilians) and killing a citizen who has killed (or tried to kill) other citizens? A purely utilitarian and logical answer would be "there isn't a difference".

 

The third point to consider is "are there people so intrinsically evil and whose continued existence remains a threat to the state/society"? Here I would say <possibly>. I think few would argue that Paul Blobel, Josef Kramer, Oskar Dirlewanger or Ted Bundy were not incredibly evil individuals, but did they merit the death penalty?

 

The final point to consider is: If someone is deemed by the state to be so dangerously and irredeemably evil that they should be locked away for the rest of life in something like the Florence ADX "Supermax" prison with no possibility of ever being released - is that more humane than execution?

 

As I said, interesting philosophical questions.

Edited March 21, 2023 by iL Dottore

[Dave Hunt]

8 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

I might have joined the railway when I left school, but all the family members who had worked for the railway advised against it.

 

 

Me too but then I went up in an aircraft for the first time and decided that was for me. I don't think that mu Mum was ever really happy about my choice, though.

 

Dave