More model ideas

[GordonC]

9 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Apart from - well, with the notable exception of - the 124s ( & 123s ), no Swindon DMUs were particularly good looking - with that rather bored-looking two window slab front !

 

I liked the two window front on the Class 120s, and with that they were very distinctive at a distance. For those less knowledgeable, or skilled to convert the more subtle differences, a 117 might be close enough for a 116/118/125

[BR Blue]

I always liked the look of the 120, it was distinctive.

[Accurascale Fran]

Hi folks,

 

If anyone, anywhere can find some works drawings of the 120s to lend to us we might just be persuaded into it. They seem rather elusive though!

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, GordonC said:

 

I liked the two window front on the Class 120s, and with that they were very distinctive at a distance. For those less knowledgeable, or skilled to convert the more subtle differences, a 117 might be close enough for a 116/118/125

Back in the 80s when they were cheap as chips, I converted a Lima 117 to a passable (for those days) 116, which I still have and which still runs.  It needed 5 Lima vehicles to make a 3-car set.  
 

The DMBS is the simplest, a matter of filing off the headcode box and building up the smaller destination box (I used Milliput).  The DMS needs 2 coaches, as the Lima 117 had two DMBS; you need the same destination box conversion and the 2nd class end of a trailer for a cut’n’shut.  The 116 trailer is a radically different beast to the 117, and there are two basic types, a TS and a TC; I modelled the latter, again cut’n’shut Lima TCLs.  The DMS is another cut’n’shut, with the brake compartment replaced with the 2nd class end of another 117 TCL
 

As I wanted a set in early condition, the gangways had to come off, and new exhaust pipes without the fatter silencer mufflers fitted.  The interiors (also cut’n’shuts) had to have new saloon patitions without the doors built from plasticard.  Scale buffers made a massive improvement to the ends.  I decided to live with Lima’s stretched oversized window for the first seating bay behind the cabs.  Livery was unlined ‘electric green’ with speed whiskers and white cab roofs.  
 

I would be a lot less keen to attempt this butchery with a Bachmann 117, but the princple would be the same and the job is certainly feasible and doesn’t require major skill levels; if I can do it, it is within the capacity of most modellers!

 

Multiple units were the least interesting of trains to enthusiasts, and 116s were arguably the least interesting of dmu which probably explains manufactuers’ reluctance to make one, but they were such an essential part of the general scene for so long and in so many places that they deserve an RTR model to current standards IMHO. 

Edited August 16 by The Johnster

[dj_crisp]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

116

119

120

123

126 and IC

 

no models.

 

Apart from Trix Trans Pennine DMCL, no Swindon DMU cars have been produced RTR

 

I won't be surprised if another manufacturer already has a 120 in the pipeline ;) 

 

Always thought the 116 missed out Vs a 117 as to the majority they're quite similar and didn't have many of the later liveries.

 

There is a long list of possible heritage DMUs missing...  I'll add 114 and 115 to your list! Although these are more regionally bound

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, MJI said:

116

119

120

123

126 and IC

 

no models.

 

Apart from Trix Trans Pennine DMCL, no Swindon DMU cars have been produced RTR

 You could add 114s (Derby lightweights on 64’ underframes) & all the high-density sets other than 117s & bubbles to that list.  

[stewartingram]

109 and 125 as well.

[BR Blue]

21 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 You could add 114s (Derby lightweights on 64’ underframes) & all the high-density sets other than 117s & bubbles to that list.  

A Post Office 114 is on my to do list.

[TravisM]

1 hour ago, Accurascale Fran said:

Hi folks,

 

If anyone, anywhere can find some works drawings of the 120s to lend to us we might just be persuaded into it. They seem rather elusive though!

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

 

Surely the NRM has the drawings for all the 1st generation DMU's in their archive?  If not, you know their underframe length, width and other features must be easy enough to work out?  Other manufacturers have done it with great results (1200 'Falcon, Lion, Kestrel, DP2, SR Boosters to name a few).  I'm sure it's not beyond your capabilities to create a stunning model.

[Accurascale Fran]

8 minutes ago, TravisM said:

 

Surely the NRM has the drawings for all the 1st generation DMU's in their archive?  

 

Nope. Not catalogued at the very least. 

 

A 3 car DMU has a more complex underframe than any loco, with various battery boxes, underframe equipment and engines etc littered all over, not to mention various pipe runs. This is the area that needs most research, hence drawings are a must considering the real units no longer exist.

 

And yes, we are aware of existing similar units, but having looked at them and compared to photos, we can already see large differences, so not of enough use.

 

So, if anyone has the drawings, or can point us to where they are, feel free to PM me!

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

 

 

[Phatbob]

5 hours ago, Covkid said:

 I agree that a 117 > 118 would be straightforward with headcode "caps" and square buffers. 

IIRC from when I converted a Lima 117 to 118, you also need to change the roof vents from ridged dome type to shell type?

Likewise, for the 117 to 116 conversions I did many years ago, shell vents were required in addition to differences in cab ends and removing the lavatory and moving around the doors and windows in the centre car.

[wombatofludham]

2 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

 

Nope. Not catalogued at the very least. 

 

A 3 car DMU has a more complex underframe than any loco, with various battery boxes, underframe equipment and engines etc littered all over, not to mention various pipe runs. This is the area that needs most research, hence drawings are a must considering the real units no longer exist.

 

And yes, we are aware of existing similar units, but having looked at them and compared to photos, we can already see large differences, so not of enough use.

 

So, if anyone has the drawings, or can point us to where they are, feel free to PM me!

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

 

 

You probably am aware of the group but have you contacted the Railcar Association (The Railcar Association) to see if they have any resource material?  For those unaware, they are an organisation helping dmu preservationists and have details of preserved vehicles and other resources, and also administer the general history and image website https://www.railcar.co.uk/.  The Railcar website is an invaluable resource for anyone interested in first gen fart carts and you can spend a happy wasted day just trawling through the photo albums.  For a "boring DMU" there are usually a lot of variation in formation, liveries and general appearance over the years which would flabber the ghast of the most ardent kettleista.

There are preserved Class 116s out there to 3d scan as well, just saying....

[SC55015]

15 hours ago, dj_crisp said:

Having no markers that'll be one of the early sets if it's a 118 as i believe most had markers... or one of the early 117s with the curved headcode box. Being so similar I struggle with telling the difference!

There are two clues in that image that its a 118:
1) The whiskers are a different style. On the vehicles without marker lamps, BRC&W still painted the whiskers in the same style as the vehicles with them.
2) On this side, Pressed Steel put the crest under the fourth window. BRC&W put the crest one bay back further back under the half windows.

[GordonC]

3 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

 

Nope. Not catalogued at the very least. 

 

A 3 car DMU has a more complex underframe than any loco, with various battery boxes, underframe equipment and engines etc littered all over, not to mention various pipe runs. This is the area that needs most research, hence drawings are a must considering the real units no longer exist.

 

And yes, we are aware of existing similar units, but having looked at them and compared to photos, we can already see large differences, so not of enough use.

 

So, if anyone has the drawings, or can point us to where they are, feel free to PM me!

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

 

 

 

I'm assuming the existing similar units you're referring to are the Class 126s at Bo'ness. I'm surprised if they're significantly different to 120s bearing in mind they were built at a similar time at the same place. Taking equipment positioning on those as a starting point, would there be enough maintenance staff left that worked on them that could be asked whether things are in the right places for 120s?

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, Phatbob said:

IIRC from when I converted a Lima 117 to 118, you also need to change the roof vents from ridged dome type to shell type?

Likewise, for the 117 to 116 conversions I did many years ago, shell vents were required in addition to differences in cab ends and removing the lavatory and moving around the doors and windows in the centre car.

 

You can't just cut out the lavatory from the 117 TCL and replace it with a bay from the 2nd class, because of the supply pipes and vents for the lavatory on the 117 roof.  The new end for the 116 TC or TS to attach to the 117 2nd class end has to be sections from the 2nd class ends of further 117 trailers because the 117 1st class window spacing is different to the 116, first or second.   I'd forgotten the shell vents but yes, those are needed as well. 

 

The 116 Lima conversion is not beyond the ability of an 'average modeller', whatever that might be when it's at home, but is not a couple of hours on a Sunday afternoon job.  It is fairly complex, with a lot of filing and shaping, trimming, and filling & sanding of joins, IIRC mine took about 3 weeks.  It was a big success at exhibitions, though, a cut above the standard hi-density of the day, a Lima 117 straight out of the box with two DBMS and no white cab roofs if it was in green livery.  I was often asked where I had obtained it, and several people suggested I write an magazine article on the conversion, but I was working full-time in those days and din't really have the time, and was of the view that if I could work out the order of work, they should be able to too, and probably improve on it.  The model wasn't perfect, but not much was in those days, and it passed muster!

 

I had to rely on childhood memory to match the livery and the interior trim, which was done in RPG acrylic 'decaying flesh' light green; exhibition punters tended to agree that I'd got the colours close enough for jazz.  Seats were mid-grey with red leather headrests, blue with black headrests and white anti-macassars in first class, from the grey/red moquette remembered from childhood.  Some cut'n'shut work is needed for the bulkhead seating, and of course for pre-gangwayed sets new saloon-dividing bulkheads and their windows are needed.  The destination boxes are brass L-section and the marker lights, four on the version I modelled, were brass tube with glue to represent the opaque glass.  I deep-sixed the horrible Lima couplers and fitted scale at the ends and Bill Bedford solid screws between cars; it runs fine in both directions on trackwork to Peco 2' radius standards even propelling through reverse curves.

 

I filed a shape in the two outer marker lights at each end to represent the channels intended to take the red shades that modernisation plan dmus were built with, kept in a varnished box on the side of the drivers' desk.  These were never used in the event and oil tail lamps were deployed, so you need lamp brackets abover the buffers each cab end as well.  Finished off with flush window inserts, scale buffers, and vacuum hoses, the holes left by the original exhaust pipes were filled with Milliput; thought I was the mutt's nuts!

Edited August 16 by The Johnster

[MattR]

I never see anybody talk about the Class 113 DMU. Is the gigantic headcode box the only outwardly physical difference between it and a Class 105?

[MJI]

4 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

I'm assuming the existing similar units you're referring to are the Class 126s at Bo'ness. I'm surprised if they're significantly different to 120s bearing in mind they were built at a similar time at the same place. Taking equipment positioning on those as a starting point, would there be enough maintenance staff left that worked on them that could be asked whether things are in the right places for 120s?

 

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

You can't just cut out the lavatory from the 117 TCL and replace it with a bay from the 2nd class, because of the supply pipes and vents for the lavatory on the 117 roof.  The new end for the 116 TC or TS to attach to the 117 2nd class end has to be sections from the 2nd class ends of further 117 trailers because the 117 1st class window spacing is different to the 116, first or second.   I'd forgotten the shell vents but yes, those are needed as well. 

 

The 116 Lima conversion is not beyond the ability of an 'average modeller', whatever that might be when it's at home, but is not a couple of hours on a Sunday afternoon job.  It is fairly complex, with a lot of filing and shaping, trimming, and filling & sanding of joins, IIRC mine took about 3 weeks.  It was a big success at exhibitions, though, a cut above the standard hi-density of the day, a Lima 117 straight out of the box with two DBMS and no white cab roofs if it was in green livery.  I was often asked where I had obtained it, and several people suggested I write an magazine article on the conversion, but I was working full-time in those days and din't really have the time, and was of the view that if I could work out the order of work, they should be able to too, and probably improve on it.  The model wasn't perfect, but not much was in those days, and it passed muster!

 

I had to rely on childhood memory to match the livery and the interior trim, which was done in RPG acrylic 'decaying flesh' light green; exhibition punters tended to agree that I'd got the colours close enough for jazz.  Seats were mid-grey with red leather headrests, blue with black headrests and white anti-macassars in first class, from the grey/red moquette remembered from childhood.  Some cut'n'shut work is needed for the bulkhead seating, and of course for pre-gangwayed sets new saloon-dividing bulkheads and their windows are needed.  The destination boxes are brass L-section and the marker lights, four on the version I modelled, were brass tube with glue to represent the opaque glass.  I deep-sixed the horrible Lima couplers and fitted scale at the ends and Bill Bedford solid screws between cars; it runs fine in both directions on trackwork to Peco 2' radius standards even propelling through reverse curves.

 

I filed a shape in the two outer marker lights at each end to represent the channels intended to take the red shades that modernisation plan dmus were built with, kept in a varnished box on the side of the drivers' desk.  These were never used in the event and oil tail lamps were deployed, so you need lamp brackets abover the buffers each cab end as well.  Finished off with flush window inserts, scale buffers, and vacuum hoses, the holes left by the original exhaust pipes were filled with Milliput; thought I was the mutt's nuts!

I have 2 Lima 116s,  valleys set and a Tysely set.

 

120 and IC are very different underneath, same bogies, same profile, same windows.

 

But the IC and 126 underframes are nothing like 120.

 

Except same battery box design.

Edited August 16 by MJI

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

I'm assuming the existing similar units you're referring to are the Class 126s at Bo'ness. I'm surprised if they're significantly different to 120s bearing in mind they were built at a similar time at the same place. Taking equipment positioning on those as a starting point, would there be enough maintenance staff left that worked on them that could be asked whether things are in the right places for 120s?

 

Only the outer cabs were the same as 120s.  Not sure what differences there were on the underframe, possibly none, but the internal layout, and the positioning & spacing of the windows was radically different.  Of course the 126 inner cabs were unique to that class; other gangway cabs such as those on the 123 Swindon Intercity and Clacton electrics, and various Southern emus, were different again.  126s predated 120s and were for a different purpose, hence the 'Intercity' branding as opposed to 'Cross Country'.  To complete the Swindon dmu story, the 123s had a more mk1 (but not identical) profile, and were among the first vehicles to use the then new Swindon B4 bogie; the last set of chocolate & cream coaches, built in 1962 for 'The Bristolian' may have predated the first 123.  The 124 'Trans Pennine' 5-car sets had Commonwealth Pattern bogies and no gangways between sets; again, the interior layout was unique to these sets.

 

120s came in 3 types, with/without buffet trailers and the '1961' batch for the West Country with 4-character headcode boxes below the cab windows

[MJI]

The Swindon profile was based on late GWR style, as Was the mark 2 prototype.

 

The standard Swindon DMU, window is about 1mm shallower than a mk 1, i reckon 15mm wide.

 

Trans pennine was 6 car, and also used Swindon DMU bogies.

 

I would guess in cross section. 120, ic, 123, 124, 126 are all similar.

 

IC and 120 UF forget it, too different.

 

I have a 6 car IC under construction waiting on some design work for engines and tanks.

 

A 120 still to be glazed.

[Fire Queen]

One useful source for all things 1st generation DMU:

 

https://railcar.co.uk/

[MidlandRed]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

120s came in 3 types, with/without buffet trailers and the '1961' batch for the West Country with 4-character headcode boxes below the cab windows

Pedant mode - the last batch of 120s were allocated originally to Tyseley and used on services like Birmingham Snow Hill to Worcester via Stratford on Avon and Evesham. They were all transferred in the early 60s to the West Country (as were quite a few class 116 sets from South Wales).

 

Tyseley had an allocation of class 119s which remained when the area north of Banbury was transferred from WR to LMR - they moved to Chester along with a small batch of 3 car Met Cammell DMUs (ex Sutton services), all repainted blue (predated blue and grey) in 1967 to run the services north of Wolverhampton towards Shrewsbury and Chester after completion of the initial electrification on the WCML and closure of through services from Paddington via Birmingham Snow Hill. 

[nickb4141]

11 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

 

Nope. Not catalogued at the very least. 

 

A 3 car DMU has a more complex underframe than any loco, with various battery boxes, underframe equipment and engines etc littered all over, not to mention various pipe runs. This is the area that needs most research, hence drawings are a must considering the real units no longer exist.

 

And yes, we are aware of existing similar units, but having looked at them and compared to photos, we can already see large differences, so not of enough use.

 

So, if anyone has the drawings, or can point us to where they are, feel free to PM me!

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

 

 

Hi Fran,

 

Have you spoken to the guys at Revolution? I wonder if they’re having similar problems with Class 120 drawings, as their proposed N gauge model doesn’t appear to have made much progress? That aside, they must have had a plan how they were going to produce the 120 when they announced it, so could be worth asking the question? 
 

Whatever the outcome,it would be great to see some units come out of the Accurascale stable. Have you thought about Class 170 ‘Turbostars’ and 220/221/222 ‘Voyagers/Meridiens’? I’m guessing your response might be, ‘Bachmann will do them,’ but they don’t seem in any hurry to produce them, and with a myriad of liveries on the 170’s and new liveries to come on the 220/221and potentially the 222’s if they move to Scotland, they would seem to fit the Accurascale business model to a tee! They also have the added bonus of being around for a few years yet (unlike the Sprinters, which are now approaching the end of their life). 
 

Cheers, Nick.

[Flying Pig]

On 18/11/2023 at 00:16, The Johnster said:

A hi-fi Nielson pug would be fun, one in the eye for Smokey Joe and my time time he and his ilk have wasted in eBay searches...

 

I've just read through @Barclay's thread on bringing a Hornby pug up to somewhere near scale and there was precious little of the original left (and that modified, but still compromised).  So I'm inclined to agree with this suggestion, but as Accurascale already have a Scottish pug, courtesy of Hattons, it doesn't seem likely.

 

Anyway they've still got the Stephen Lewin to do if they want a tiny saddle tank to go with their chaldrons for a practically 009 sized train.

[NXEA!]

Away from my usual requests for GE steam or early diesel-related stuff, would the A/S team consider doing a 317 please?  Those lovely DC traction motors would sound absolutely hellfire with the Accurathrash set up, and would be a great way to relive them as sadly none have been saved. Myriad of colourful liveries, and operated into every AC-electrified London terminus other than Paddington at one time or another, even reaching as far north as New Street in the early days, what’s not to like?! Compliments the forthcoming Revolution 321 and is just a few tooling tweaks away from the 455 too…

Edited August 20 by NXEA!

[stewartingram]

317s? Hated the things when I was commuting. Uncomfortable, noisy, draughty & cold. When I walked to the suburban platforms at KGX after a night shift, finding the first train out was an all stations stopper to HDN my heart sank. Thank goodness they have gone.