locomotive kits 30368's Workbench SR Loco's with a bit of LNER

[30368]

2 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

I've got a BR photo of 61711 with guard irons removed......

Me too but also one with them fitted.

But it is not straitforward!

 

P117 of Locomotives of the Great Central Railway Vol 2 has a picture of E1391, with British Railways on the tender, this loco became 61711. It has G.Irons fitted.

P104 of LNER 4-6-0 Locomotives has E1391 at Gorton in steam on 13 March 1948, it has G.Irons fitted. It was renumbered 61711 in April 1949.

P123 of Robinson Locomotives has a picture of 61711 standing in a run down state at Gorton in April 1950 - No G.Irons fitted but it looks out of service.

P103 of Yeadons Vol.22 has two pictures of this loco one as E1391 with G.Irons and one as 61711 with no G.Irons located on the buffer stops at Gorton.

So the picture evidence suggests that 61711 did not have G.Irons fitted, however the two pictures of it in this state show it at the buffers at Gorton shed shortly before withdrawl.

 

So since the only pictures of this loco in use in BR Days has it with G.Irons fitted (as E1391) and my view is that it would not have run on a train without them.

 

Then I found some pictures of B7 4-6-0s running on trains with one or no guard irons! I'll stick with my assumption that when it was renumbered 61711in April 1949 it still had Guard Irons fitted......

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

 

Edited August 28 by 30368

[Michael Edge]

Don't worry about it!

[30368]

14 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

Don't worry about it!

 

Thanks, I'm not worried, honest..

 

Thanks for the excellent image of 61711 in steam with no guard irons. They are coming off!

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[65179]

5 hours ago, 30368 said:

 

Thanks, I'm not worried, honest..

 

Thanks for the excellent image of 61711 in steam with no guard irons. They are coming off!

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

It seems to have lost them by late May 1949 at the latest.  That leaves a very small period, if any, where it might have run as 61711 with guard irons. 

 

Anyone else wanting to find in service photos of 61711 in this condition should look at Colour Rail (https://colourrail.co.uk/ ) photos with references 98245 and 98246.

 

Simon

[Michael Edge]

The guard irons went when E1391 was renumbered 61711, quoted date is 30th April 1949. My E1391 has guard irons, your 61711 shouldn't have them.

[30368]

I have two images 0f 61711 that confirm the lack of guard-irons on the locomotive. In both cases the loco is in steam. Thanks for all the help Michael and 65179.

 

I have purchased this ColourRail image - please abide by the copyright rules.

Poor old thing is filthy, located at Chester.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[65179]

On 29/08/2024 at 07:37, Michael Edge said:

The guard irons went when E1391 was renumbered 61711, quoted date is 30th April 1949. My E1391 has guard irons, your 61711 shouldn't have them.

 

Thanks Mike, that's useful.

 

BRdatabase quotes the following dates which presumably come from either Yeadon or the RCTS books:

 

 

Has anyone seen a photo of this loco as 61391? I've only come across views of it as E1391 or 61711.

 

Why were the guard irons removed (or if they weren't needed anyway why fit them at all)? B9 1475/61475 seems to have ended its days with just one. 

 

Edit: It had just one when here ca.1947, but when running as 61475 had none as highlighted in posts below.

 

Flickr image

 

Simon

Edited August 30 by 65179
Duff info

[65179]

13 minutes ago, 30368 said:

I have two images 0f 61711 that confirm the lack of guard-irons on the locomotive. In both cases the loco is in steam. Thanks for all the help Michael and 65179.

 

I have purchased this ColourRail image - please abide by the copyright rules.

Poor old thing is filthy, located at Chester.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

Obligatory painted over charred lower smokebox front too.

 

Simon

[30368]

 

 

 

1 hour ago, 65179 said:

Why were the guard irons removed (or if they weren't needed anyway why fit them at all)? B9 1475/61475 seems to have ended its days with just one:

 

I am surprised that loco's seem to have been in traffic without guard irons fitted. In my BR Apprentice Fitter days no item of rolling stock or traction would be released to traffic with a loose or missing guard iron. Perhaps things were "looser" after the demands of WW2?

 

Here is a picture of my 61475 built from Judith Edge etches a few years ago. Picture by Tony Wright during a visit to LB earlier in the year.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[Michael Edge]

By the time the B9 was 61475 it had lost the other one as well - I'll have to take them off mine now!

The B7 was never numbered 61391, went from E1391 to 61711, the original number series was being taken up with new B1s by then. I have no idea why the frame guard irons gradually disappeared but I'm always glad to see them gone when I'm building models, they are easily bent into the track and often foul bogie wheels.

[65179]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

By the time the B9 was 61475 it had lost the other one as well - I'll have to take them off mine now!

The B7 was never numbered 61391, went from E1391 to 61711, the original number series was being taken up with new B1s by then. I have no idea why the frame guard irons gradually disappeared but I'm always glad to see them gone when I'm building models, they are easily bent into the track and often foul bogie wheels.

 

So it did: https://www.thetransportlibrary.co.uk/m/page/1?hits=1&per_page=25&search=B9+61475#media_4cd1d317-3b07-46e6-b439-7ba6c6e0a936 !

 

I'd forgotten I chopped them both off on mine.

 

 

Simon

[30368]

2 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

I'll have to take them off mine now!

Me too!

[Michael Edge]

See where this has led us to, we might be turning into rivet counters at this rate!

[65179]

29 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

See where this has led us to, we might be turning into rivet counters at this rate!

 

No, that would be suggesting you should both fill in the small square 'spectacle' above the reversing rod on your 61475s 😉

 

Simon

[Michael Edge]

Thanks very much.....

I hadn't noticed that 61475 had lost the small square windows on each side - other B9s still had them.

I've removed the guard irons on mine this morning but I'm afraid the windows will have to stay.

[30368]

1 minute ago, Michael Edge said:

I've removed the guard irons on mine this morning but I'm afraid the windows will have to stay.

 

I will attend to this new information after I have finished the B7 4-6-0.

 

KInd regards,

 

Richard B

[65179]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

Thanks very much.....

I hadn't noticed that 61475 had lost the small square windows on each side - other B9s still had them.

I've removed the guard irons on mine this morning but I'm afraid the windows will have to stay.

 

Sorry. I hadn't noticed it until you'd both finished yours. I did note it as part of my build on my workbench thread.  The square window is still present on the other side. Run yours facing Liverpool Central on Herculaneum Dock and no-one will know Mike!

 

 

 

 

Simon 

 

Edited August 30 by 65179

[Michael Edge]

I should have seen it myself, there's a good photo of it under Brunswick's coal hole of all places! You're right it's still there on the other side although I don't have a photo as clear as the one you posted.

[30368]

Pushing ahead with the front of the loco. I still need to fit some of the fine all pipes etc on the smokebox sides and the lamp brackets but I think it is looking fairly good and a fair representation of the B7 towards the end of its working life.

 

Close-ups are so cruel... What a rough old job.

 

A fair bit of fine p[ipework to add to the smokebox on this side.

 

As you can see those controversial guard irons are off.  This side has a oil pipe running along the boiler - still to fit. I think I might add an etched adjusting wheel to the mech. lubricator.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

[t-b-g]

11 minutes ago, 30368 said:

Pushing ahead with the front of the loco. I still need to fit some of the fine all pipes etc on the smokebox sides and the lamp brackets but I think it is looking fairly good and a fair representation of the B7 towards the end of its working life.

 

Close-ups are so cruel... What a rough old job.

 

A fair bit of fine p[ipework to add to the smokebox on this side.

 

As you can see those controversial guard irons are off.  This side has a oil pipe running along the boiler - still to fit. I think I might add an etched adjusting wheel to the mech. lubricator.

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

 

That is looking very nice. I would just mention a couple of things. With the smokebox door handles in the position you have them, I am not sure that the door would be properly closed. My understanding is that the handle nearest the door should be just about at 6 o'clock. The outer handle then tightens up against the inner one, so could be in a different position.

 

The other thing is the guide for the piston valve rod/crosshead. If you look at drawings and photos, I think the etches are about the right size and shape but the drawing showing where to put them on has them back to front. The wider part should be next to the cylinder.

 

I reversed it on my Valour and attach a photo (taken before it was cleaned up!) showing what I mean.

 

I think the B7s also had the vertical handrail attached to the vertical bar at the back end of the slidebar bracket, as seen on Valour.

 

You are encouraging me to do a B7. What a beast they are! I have an almost finished one that the late Roy Jackson was working on, plus a set of etches the same as yours and a Gladiator kit in O gauge, so one day I may end up with three.

 

 

[65179]

Looking really good Richard.  Can you persuade the handrail around the front to follow the curve of the smokebox a little more closely?

 

Simon

[30368]

44 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

I would just mention a couple of things. With the smokebox door handles in the position you have them, I am not sure that the door would be properly closed.

 

Thanks to all for the help and advice.

 

Re - the smokbox door handles. I tried to replicate 61711 at Chester as below.

 

Re the valve guides. I suspect you are correct but looking at P105 of Vol 2 of Locomotives of the Great Central Railway it seemed to me that the bulky part of the valve guide was at the outer end of the guide. The actual guide is much more complicated than the etch and it struck me that a casting would have been better.

 

Re the handrail on the guidebar cross member - I have made them but not fitted yet - they are a bit vulnerable!

I am pleased that you are considering a B7 - they are big locomotives compared to their contemporaries!

 

Re The handrail profile around the smokebox - I'll see what I can do! With these wrap around handrials I am just happy that they turn the corner ok, as it were!

 

Kind regards and many thanks,

 

Richard B

 

[John Tomlinson]

29 minutes ago, 30368 said:

 

Thanks to all for the help and advice.

 

Re - the smokbox door handles. I tried to replicate 61711 at Chester as below.

 

Re the valve guides. I suspect you are correct but looking at P105 of Vol 2 of Locomotives of the Great Central Railway it seemed to me that the bulky part of the valve guide was at the outer end of the guide. The actual guide is much more complicated than the etch and it struck me that a casting would have been better.

 

Re the handrail on the guidebar cross member - I have made them but not fitted yet - they are a bit vulnerable!

I am pleased that you are considering a B7 - they are big locomotives compared to their contemporaries!

 

Re The handrail profile around the smokebox - I'll see what I can do! With these wrap around handrials I am just happy that they turn the corner ok, as it were!

 

Kind regards and many thanks,

 

Richard B

 

 

When looking at this rather sad photo, it's clear how noticeable the rivet detail on the sides and front of the smokebox is. Your brass add on's in this respect have made a huge difference to the final appearance of the model.

 

John.

[t-b-g]

28 minutes ago, 30368 said:

 

Thanks to all for the help and advice.

 

Re - the smokbox door handles. I tried to replicate 61711 at Chester as below.

 

Re the valve guides. I suspect you are correct but looking at P105 of Vol 2 of Locomotives of the Great Central Railway it seemed to me that the bulky part of the valve guide was at the outer end of the guide. The actual guide is much more complicated than the etch and it struck me that a casting would have been better.

 

Re the handrail on the guidebar cross member - I have made them but not fitted yet - they are a bit vulnerable!

I am pleased that you are considering a B7 - they are big locomotives compared to their contemporaries!

 

Re The handrail profile around the smokebox - I'll see what I can do! With these wrap around handrials I am just happy that they turn the corner ok, as it were!

 

Kind regards and many thanks,

 

Richard B

 

 

I looked at the same photo in volume 2. It is odd how we can look at the same thing and see it differently. I was looking at the change in profile from top to bottom. The wider part is nearer the cylinders. I agree that the etchings are not ideal and mine could have done with beefing up at the rear end.

 

For the door handles, the photo of the real loco does show the inner handle at about 6 o'clock, which is where it should be. Yours is nearer 8 o'clock. I don't recall seeing any photos of locos running with the handles there.

[30368]

32 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

Yours is nearer 8 o'clock. I don't recall seeing any photos of locos running with the handles there.

Thanks, I will see if I can make the adjustment.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B