RevolutioN Trains announce "Caroline" Inspection Car in OO gauge and EOI for one in N gauge

[Martin_R]

9 hours ago, PeteScR said:

Finally got around to putting a decoder in mine, the LAIS 860019. When I put the coach on the track all of the lights come on (except the trailing reds). I can't get any of the functions to work to operate the lights and the NCE handset says it cant find the decoder if I try to interrogate it.

Anyone else had this? What am I missing? Is this decoder no good for this coach?

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Unfortunately you cannot interrogate a decoder in Caroline as it is in a no load installation ie no motor. I used my ESU Decoder Tester to read and program the 860019 (you could also use a dcc loco as a slave). You can re-write cv’s to the decoder but make sure you know original value’s first so you can revert if needed.

[LMSfan72]

6 hours ago, SRman said:

I don't have my Carolines yet (one blue/grey and one NSE), but I have the Lais decoders ready and waiting.

I am wondering whether using the programming logic for function mapping, could it be possible to put the condition in that with both F0 and F2 activated, for forwards, F0(f) is off, and similarly with F0 and F2 in reverse, F0(r) is off. I'll be trying a few things to see if I can get it to happen, although I don't doubt the expertise of those who have already tried.

I don’t think so, F0f connects to white at forward end and red at tail end. F0r connects to red at forward end and white at tail end. Therefore, these are the only combinations that result in lights:

 

Forward

 

End1 - F0f white (with or without AUX2)

End2 - F0f red with AUX2

 

Reverse

 

End1 - F0r red with AUX2

End2 - F0r white (with or without AUX2)

 

The mapping really just means that you don’t have to keep changing buttons manually but can’t get around the physical limitation

[SRman]

1 hour ago, LMSfan72 said:

I don’t think so, F0f connects to white at forward end and red at tail end. F0r connects to red at forward end and white at tail end. Therefore, these are the only combinations that result in lights:

 

Forward

 

End1 - F0f white (with or without AUX2)

End2 - F0f red with AUX2

 

Reverse

 

End1 - F0r red with AUX2

End2 - F0r white (with or without AUX2)

 

The mapping really just means that you don’t have to keep changing buttons manually but can’t get around the physical limitation

 

I see (thanks). Are there wires feeding the head and tail lights, or are they mounted on the PCB?

If there are wires, it might be possible to reroute them to work from a separate output. Or has that been covered already?

[LMSfan72]

14 minutes ago, SRman said:

If there are wires, it might be possible to reroute them to work from a separate output. Or has that been covered already?

No wires, all contacts on the pcb to the body. Re-routing means modifying the lighting circuits in the body ends and I don't fancy getting them out without damage. The easiest thing to do is to modify the pads on the pcb which would let one end be turned off by decoder function. The second mod would be to have another function output amplified on a decoder to then turn the +ve voltage off at the other end too.

[LMSfan72]

So, here's how I see the reversible mod to disable ALL End2 lights with AUX2:

 

1. Small pieces of "Kapton" tape covering the U1+ pad at End1 and the U+ pad at End2:

2. Some copper conductive tape:

3. Use the conductive tape to extend the remaining pad to cover both of the positive contact pads:

 

That now makes End1 have a permanent positive connection via U+ and End2 has a switchable positive connection via U1+ which is controlled by AUX2

 

I haven't put it back together to confirm it works yet as I am considering replacing U+ with "U2+" which would take the feed from U+ and interrupt it with a transistor switch (like U1+ is) switched by another function (will have to amplify another logic function of the decoder contact pads) and then feed that to where the new contact pad is. I need a couple of transistors before I can do that and don't want to keep assembling/disassembling the coach....

 

 

[LMSfan72]

57 minutes ago, LMSfan72 said:

I haven't put it back together to confirm it works yet as I am considering replacing U+ with "U2+" which would take the feed from U+ and interrupt it with a transistor switch (like U1+ is) switched by another function (will have to amplify another logic function of the decoder contact pads) and then feed that to where the new contact pad is. I need a couple of transistors before I can do that and don't want to keep assembling/disassembling the coach....

 

Well, I got impatient. I just clipped the board back in and left the interior out and sat the body on the connector. The mod works really well - End2 lights are now switched off with the decoder as well as the underside switch

[LMSfan72]

QUESTION ON HORNS

 

So, who has heard the real thing? Which horns are going to be closest to Caroline from the following free sound files I could use:

 

Class 08

Class 20

Class 31

Class 37

Class 40

Class 47

Class 55

 

I was discounting more modern locos although maybe a Class 150?

[newbryford]

58 minutes ago, LMSfan72 said:

QUESTION ON HORNS

 

So, who has heard the real thing? Which horns are going to be closest to Caroline from the following free sound files I could use:

 

Class 08

Class 20

Class 31

Class 37

Class 40

Class 47

Class 55

 

I was discounting more modern locos although maybe a Class 150?

 

here's the real thing.

 

[LMSfan72]

Thanks Mick. I am going with 37s I think.

 

Here's a short video with a mirror behind to show the End2 Lights now being enabled/disabled with the decoder and the 37 horn sounds!

 

https://youtu.be/HcwO4kMdi-0?si=1jpKdQWYjvul5-Nh

 

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by LMSfan72

[Fordbank]

16 hours ago, PeteScR said:

So it sounds like the Lais 860019 will work. I wonder why mine doesn't?

 

Pete

Further to my above post, prior to fitting the Lais 860019 I installed it temporarily in another loco for the purpose of re-setting CV1 - the decoder ID. I did not check or change any of the function outputs prior to its now successful installation in Caroline.

With the  hindsight provided by other subsequent posts taking a note of the values of other CVs would be sensible.

 

Two queries remain.

1. Is the switching on/off of the train end lights without any resort to blanking tape a unique function of the ZTC controller?

2. Is there a simple way of adding a resistor to the PCB to mimic a motor load so that were the decoder to default to ID3 (as some decoders unhepfully do on odd occasions ) then CV1 could be reset without having to remove the body and risk all those delicate fittings? I'm sure all the forensic c investigations of the PCB will produce some useful output.

 

Andy

[Martin_R]

19 minutes ago, Fordbank said:

Further to my above post, prior to fitting the Lais 860019 I installed it temporarily in another loco for the purpose of re-setting CV1 - the decoder ID. I did not check or change any of the function outputs prior to its now successful installation in Caroline.

With the  hindsight provided by other subsequent posts taking a note of the values of other CVs would be sensible.

 

Two queries remain.

1. Is the switching on/off of the train end lights without any resort to blanking tape a unique function of the ZTC controller?

2. Is there a simple way of adding a resistor to the PCB to mimic a motor load so that were the decoder to default to ID3 (as some decoders unhepfully do on odd occasions ) then CV1 could be reset without having to remove the body and risk all those delicate fittings? I'm sure all the forensic c investigations of the PCB will produce some useful output.

 

Andy

Hi Andy, I’ve found that you are able to amend CV’s on the decoder whilst in Caroline but you cannot read them back hence making a note of the existing CV’s from a reader or slave loco before doing any changes. If you get stuck you can write 4 to CV8 to reset the Lais decoder.
I’m rapidly coming round to having to make an additional custom pcb board with a sound decoder/speaker to get everything working correctly and have just horn sounds without any conflict with the loco sound functions.

Hope this helps 🤞

[LMSfan72]

1 hour ago, Fordbank said:

Further to my above post, prior to fitting the Lais 860019 I installed it temporarily in another loco for the purpose of re-setting CV1 - the decoder ID. I did not check or change any of the function outputs prior to its now successful installation in Caroline.

With the  hindsight provided by other subsequent posts taking a note of the values of other CVs would be sensible.

 

Two queries remain.

1. Is the switching on/off of the train end lights without any resort to blanking tape a unique function of the ZTC controller?

2. Is there a simple way of adding a resistor to the PCB to mimic a motor load so that were the decoder to default to ID3 (as some decoders unhepfully do on odd occasions ) then CV1 could be reset without having to remove the body and risk all those delicate fittings? I'm sure all the forensic c investigations of the PCB will produce some useful output.

 

Andy

I don't know that the ZTC does do what is interpreted - by that I mean I think we may be confused between turning off the red lights at one end as opposed to turning off ALL lights at one end. I struggle to understand how a controller can change the physical connections. I think the modification to change the switching of the positive voltage that powers the red lights, via pad "modification" so that the switched voltage can switch both lights at one end proves that.

 

The PCB has 2 pads for a motor connection. I can confirm that those pads do connect to the motor pins on the decoder socket, so, a resistor (or small motor!) could be added. The challenge with a resistor is it still needs to be removed before running as it would get way too hot over a period of running

 

 

[Fordbank]

11 minutes ago, LMSfan72 said:

I don't know that the ZTC does do what is interpreted - by that I mean I think we may be confused between turning off the red lights at one end as opposed to turning off ALL lights at one end.

 

 

Hmmm..   I think you are surely correct - the controller will be turning off ALL the lights at the train end. But I cannot think of many times when I would require Caroline to be showing headlights or even the searchlights at the train end whilst in motion. Hence I am quite content with the Laic 80069 which with my controller will  switch all the lights at the train end independently  either off or on.

 

And thanks for the warning regarding adding a resistor.  Beyond my expertise obviously.

 

Andy

[rorz101uk]

7 hours ago, LMSfan72 said:

Thanks Mick. I am going with 37s I think.

 

Here's a short video with a mirror behind to show the End2 Lights now being enabled/disabled with the decoder and the 37 horn sounds!

 

https://youtu.be/HcwO4kMdi-0?si=1jpKdQWYjvul5-Nh

 

 

Very good, you really need a class 73 horn if I remember right. 

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, rorz101uk said:

Very good, you really need a class 73 horn if I remember right. 

 

That should be easy enough, just turn a 37 one backwards 🤓

[Fordbank]

Lights sorted, a (driverless) Caroline emerges after an inspection of Great Rocks Tunnel.

[Steven B]

20 hours ago, Fordbank said:

2. Is there a simple way of adding a resistor to the PCB to mimic a motor load so that were the decoder to default to ID3 (as some decoders unhepfully do on odd occasions ) then CV1 could be reset without having to remove the body and risk all those delicate fittings?

 

Pictures of the PCB posted on Tuesday 

show the PCB to have Motor+ and Motor- connections. I'd guess you could connect a resistor across those to act as a motor load. Probably best to set the speed curve to zero across all speeds so you don't accidently end up with a heater in the coach! (and remove it if running on DC).

 

Steven B.

[Fordbank]

12 minutes ago, Steven B said:

 

 I'd guess you could connect a resistor across those to act as a motor load.

 

Steven B.

 Now that sounds like a very promising tweak. Thanks.

And should anyone else have tried it please let us know.

[Butler Henderson]

The mtor connectors are connected to the non-existant L1 and L2 . The other side of L1 and L2 look to be direct to the 21 pin plug

Edited August 25, 2023 by Butler Henderson

[big jim]

Saw Caroline in Carlisle this morning, coupled to 37418 as usual but interestingly also coupled up to the single car NR switch and crossing recording MPV at the other end! 

[Roy Langridge]

With regards to using a resistor to simulate a motor load, the Lais website states:

Quote

LaisDcc motor decoders can be also used as lighting function decoders. You just need to connect a 560ohm/0.25W resistor between the motor outputs to make it to a dummy load/motor.

 

Hope that helkps,

Roy

[newbryford]

28 minutes ago, big jim said:

Saw Caroline in Carlisle this morning, coupled to 37418 as usual but interestingly also coupled up to the single car NR switch and crossing recording MPV at the other end! 

 

Heading my way.... https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:U91461/2023-08-25/detailed

[PeteScR]

I have a daft question regarding operating this inspection saloon in DCC. I still can't get mine to work properly having tried 2 types of decoder.

Does Caroline need to be set up and lighting changed on a programme track or can it be done on the main? For example, if I have a loco address on my NCE power cab, and it is coupled to Caroline,  if I chose F0-4 I get sounds and horns etc from the loco, not lighting on Caroline.

Is there a video or detailed instruction somewhere on how to get this to work?

 

As you can probably guess I am a plug and play guy when it comes to DCC. :-)

 

Pete

 

[newbryford]

 

2 hours ago, big jim said:

Saw Caroline in Carlisle this morning, coupled to 37418 as usual but interestingly also coupled up to the single car NR switch and crossing recording MPV at the other end! 

 

Not the average 37 plus Caroline pic...... (Must get on with my 98008 project.)

Ta to Big Jim for the heads up!

(My pic)

Edited August 25, 2023 by newbryford

[Steven B]

1 hour ago, PeteScR said:

I have a daft question regarding operating this inspection saloon in DCC. I still can't get mine to work properly having tried 2 types of decoder.

Does Caroline need to be set up and lighting changed on a programme track or can it be done on the main? For example, if I have a loco address on my NCE power cab, and it is coupled to Caroline,  if I chose F0-4 I get sounds and horns etc from the loco, not lighting on Caroline.

Is there a video or detailed instruction somewhere on how to get this to work?

 

As you can probably guess I am a plug and play guy when it comes to DCC. :-)

 

Pete

 

If you want the lights on Caroline to function alongside the lights on the loco using the loco's address  then they either need to have the same loco address or consisted together (and the consist address used).

 

Setting the loco and Caroline to the same address will cause issues if you change loco, or want head lights on on Caroline but not on the loco.

 

Probably simpler and more flexible to set the address of Caroline to something unique.

 

Steven B.