East Barnet Joint Stock - a workbench

[Chas Levin]

50 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

Impressive results there Chas!

 

Thanks Jon, I'm very pleased with them.

 

Next up, the unpowered bogie frame:

 

 

This shouldn't take too long - it'll be entirely hidden so no need to worry about cosmetics, plus it's possible I won't end up using it if only one powered Black Beetle is insufficient and I have to use two, so there's no point in getting too fancy. The idea is to make a replica in brass of what you see in the photo above, with the added strength and rigidity that brass offers over white-metal...

[Bucoops]

Safe to say you've nailed those brackets.

[Chas Levin]

4 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

Safe to say you've nailed those brackets.

 

Thanks Rich! One down, a few more details to go...

[EHertsGER]

On 10/06/2023 at 16:44, Chas Levin said:

 

Hello Steve, the hinge etch arrived, thanks again for the recommendation. I may not be using them on this project but I'll defintiely be using them in future - here's a clearer photo than the one on Dart's site, in case anyone wants a detailed view:

 

I’ll vouch for these little marvels; so far I’ve used them on the fabled quad art (there you go, Richard, one less excuse…) a twin art, a half dozen NPCs and about a dozen coaches. Just be careful keeping them in line and you’ll have some really nice looking hinges. Steady with the solder, though, or you’ll get blobs. Clean work, flux and heat, as ever, are your friends.

[Chas Levin]

6 hours ago, EHertsGER said:

I’ll vouch for these little marvels; so far I’ve used them on the fabled quad art (there you go, Richard, one less excuse…) a twin art, a half dozen NPCs and about a dozen coaches. Just be careful keeping them in line and you’ll have some really nice looking hinges. Steady with the solder, though, or you’ll get blobs. Clean work, flux and heat, as ever, are your friends.

Morning - and thanks, good to know these find wide favour!

 

I had indeed thought that extreme care woul be needed with solder quantities because of the fineness of the hinges, but soldering from the back of course helps and I'm gradually getting used to trusting the solder to do the job without over-applying!

 

My next brass coach build will likely either be a D&S Howlden 45' Luggage Brake, or a Brassmasters GCR Newspaper & Parcels Brake and while neither has a lot of hinges, both will provide an opportunity to try this etch out...

[Chas Levin]

Looking further at the unpowered bogie, I'm still keen to replace the white-metal assembly with something in brass, for greater strength, resistance to twisting and so forth. I now have a plan, but I got there in a rather 'all round the houses' way which I suspect some reading this would have thought of right at the start, so this is an illustration of how to arrive at an obvious conclusion in a rather long-winded way... 🙃

 

I started by trying to replicate the main central bar of the bogie frame, thinking that it needed to be very strong:

 

 

I then realised that using a piece of that thick brass angle you see in the above picture and soldering other sections to it would slightly defeat the object as I'd be relying on soldered joints for structural strength, so I thought about cutting a central 'H'-shaped piece of thick brass sheet as the main frame, to give a strong backbone which could have further strengthening pieces added underneath:

 

 

Then, it occurred to me that I could lengthen the outer arms to give fold-round pieces to provide larger fixing areas for the cosmetic white-metal bogie sides:

 

 

Which led to imagining full length brass sides with bearing holes too, so the whole thing could be folded up and soldered for added strength and more accurate and secure bearing seating:

 

 

At which point the penny finally dropped and I realised I was basically re-inventing the wheel, learning to draw an etched bogie!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

I never mind this sort of thing though - it's always enjoyable and interesting because you learn something about how things are made!

 

That being said, having completed the proof of concept exercise by folding up and glueing my homebrew bogie, the penny dropped another notch when it occurred to me that I could probably make use of an etched bogie frame from an existing manufacturer's range... and that's the point that I suspect many other folks would have thought of before sitting down to draw anything!! 🙄

 

The bogie wheelbase needs to be 6'6" but I've not found anything of that size as yet. I looked through my kit stash with no luck and I've so far only found 6'4" online.

 

So, I have three questions to ask, if anyone can help please:

 

1. Does anyone know of an etched 6'6" bogie from an existing kit or manufacturer?
2. If not, would I be able to get away with 6'4", given there'll be cosmetic WM bogie sides covering the axle ends and a 2" too short wheelbase is only 0.33mm adrift for each axle?
3. What about using a compensated / sprung bogie (which for instance the Palatine Models 6'4" twin torsion bar bogie kit offers)?

Edited August 4, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Bucoops]

6'6" is very short - would a loco bogie etch work?

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/4-10411

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/locomotive/ls5/

 

Edit - duh - loco bogies are inside bearing. Sorry, just got back from a week at Butlins Hell, brain cells are in very short supply.

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Bucoops

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

6'6" is very short - would a loco bogie etch work?

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/4-10411

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/locomotive/ls5/

 

Edit - duh - loco bogies are inside bearing. Sorry, just got back from a week at Butlins Hell, brain cells are in very short supply.

 

 

Welcome back Rich!

 

Nice idea but yes, I think the bearing situation would be an unnecessary extra thing to contend with.

 

I have a pair of 6'4" twin torsion bar coach bogies ordered from Palatine Models (http://www.checksystems.com/palatinemodels/4mmproducts.html) which will be interesting to see and try out for possible future coach use, even if they don't suit this build.

 

I checked with them first and although these bogies are designed for EM/P4 use, they're based on 26mm axles and built around the wheels, with the two soldered crosswires forming the basis of the bogie width, so it can easily be made narrower...

[34016]

8 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

Looking further at the unpowered bogie, I'm still keen to replace the white-metal assembly with something in brass, for greater strength, resistance to twisting and so forth. I now have a plan, but I got there in a rather 'all round the houses' way which I suspect some reading this would have thought of right at the start, so this is an illustration of how to arrive at an obvious conclusion in a rather long-winded way... 🙃

 

I started by trying to replicate the main central bar of the bogie frame, thinking that it needed to be very strong:

 

 

I then realised that using a piece of that thick brass angle you see in the above picture and soldering other sections to it would slightly defeat the object as I'd be relying on soldered joints for structural strength, so I thought about cutting a central 'H'-shaped piece of thick brass sheet as the main frame, to give a strong backbone which could have further strengthening pieces added underneath:

 

 

Then, it occurred to me that I could lengthen the outer arms to give fold-round pieces to provide larger fixing areas for the cosmetic white-metal bogie sides:

 

 

Which led to imagining full length brass sides with bearing holes too, so the whole thing could be folded up and soldered for added strength and more accurate and secure bearing seating:

 

 

At which point the penny finally dropped and I realised I was basically re-inventing the wheel, learning to draw an etched bogie!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

I never mind this sort of thing though - it's always enjoyable and interesting because you learn something about how things are made!

 

That being said, having completed the proof of concept exercise by folding up and glueing my homebrew bogie, the penny dropped another notch when it occurred to me that I could probably make use of an etched bogie frame from an existing manufacturer's range... and that's the point that I suspect many other folks would have thought of before sitting down to draw anything!! 🙄

 

The bogie wheelbase needs to be 6'6" but I've not found anything of that size as yet. I looked through my kit stash with no luck and I've so far only found 6'4" online.

 

So, I have three questions to ask, if anyone can help please:

 

1. Does anyone know of an etched 6'6" bogie from an existing kit or manufacturer?
2. If not, would I be able to get away with 6'4", given there'll be cosmetic WM bogie sides covering the axle ends and a 2" too short wheelbase is only 0.33mm adrift for each axle?
3. What about using a compensated / sprung bogie (which for instance the Palatine Models 6'4" twin torsion bar bogie kit offers)?

Hi Chas, the only option I can see is to move the bearings in by 1mm each. That's what I would do.

[Chas Levin]

3 hours ago, 34016 said:

Hi Chas, the only option I can see is to move the bearings in by 1mm each. That's what I would do.

 

Hello 34016 👋, thanks for the suggestion and yes, I'm thinking the same. Though I don't think they need to move by 1mm, but only by 0.3 mm each - 1" each side in 4mm scale (i.e. the 2" difference between 6'4" and 6'6").

 

I think the best way would be to elongate the bearing holes in the backs of the 6'6" white-metal castings to extent them inwards by 0.3mm each side, so that they sit flat over the sides of the slightly shorter 6'4" brass bogie sides: is that the same thing you meant?

The more I think about it the more I'm sure that such a small adjustment won't be at all visible and certainly not from normal viewing distances and angles.

 

On the question of whether a compensated bogie would ride well under this vehicle alongside the rigid motor bogie, the Palatine Models etch has two bogies on it, so I could make up one as per the instructions and make the other up as a mildly bodged rigid version, just to see how the two compare...🤔

[Chas Levin]

These arrived yesterday, twin torsion bar bogie etches from Palatine Models - the one on the left is the 6'4", the one on the right is the 8'6" which I bought at the same time for future LNER or GNR coach use:

 

 

I was caught off-guard however by something I didn't spot when looking at the etch artwork online: although the lefthand etch has a wheelbase of 6'4", the actual bogie frame is the same length as the 8'6" one, too long for the Sentinel's 6'6" needs.

 

Whether it can be successfully shortened or not remains to be discovered; I suspect that shortening while also preserving the compensation functionality might be a tall order, but a rigid version might still be possible and it would be a lot neater and smoother running than anything I scratchbuild.

 

In any case, assembly will have to await the arrival of wheels - I have some on the way (thank you again Andrew!) to match those on the Black Beetle powered bogie.

 

I've also order a set of the MJT 2228BG 6'4" Dean broad gauge bogies, just to see whether they might be easier to modify: they look to be pretty much the correct length, but of course they're too wide (28mm instead of 16.5). It's possible though that narrowing their gauge might be more successful than shortening the Palatine bogies' lengths...🤔

 

Good to have options though and one way or another I'll be able to construct something workable.

[Chas Levin]

While I await the MJT bogies and the wheels, there are plenty of other things to be considered, not least the question of the size and shape of the cut-out that the Black Beetle will need in the floor to allow the body to ride at the right height and allow the bogie to pivot for curves.

 

As you can see in the photos below, the top part of the Beetle's housing will be projecting up into the body when the two are united:

 

 

 

I haven't yet folded up the tabbed sections on the Worsley Works floorpan or added the solebar pieces, but it seems to me that those solebar pieces will be mounted pointing downwards from the floorpan, so that the floorpan's actual level will be in line with the upper line of the solebar as viewed from the side, shown here on the Isinglass drawing. Here's another version of one of the photos above, with the line I mean highlighted in yellow:

 

 

Assuming that positioning is right, then there will definitely need to be a substantial section cut out of the floor: if I've got that wrong though, and misunderstood how and where the Beetle should sit under the floor, please would anyone who can see my error(s) let me know?

One reason I'm puzzled is that the Beetle's clearly designed only to need a small round hole when fitted under some floors, just enough to let through the plastic surround of it's mounting screw: does the Sentinel body sit that much lower than other vehicles?

Edited August 7, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Chas Levin]

On 04/08/2023 at 13:45, Bucoops said:

6'6" is very short - would a loco bogie etch work?

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/4-10411

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/locomotive/ls5/

 

Edit - duh - loco bogies are inside bearing. Sorry, just got back from a week at Butlins Hell, brain cells are in very short supply.

 

Hey Rich, just been emailing Andrew at Wizard, I'd asked whether he had any 6'6" coach bogies in his range and he said not, but that he too thought the LS5 loco bogie might work. He suggested retaining the axles with underside keepers and if necessary using wider than OO spacers to fatten the width a little - so your brain cells were working very well after all!

 

I still think a coach bogie will be a better fit in various ways, but if I can't modify either the Palatine or MJT ones successfully and I haven't by that time located any others I'll come back to the LS5... Come back to the LS5, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean... 😁🤣🙄 (Sorry!)

Edited August 7, 2023 by Chas Levin

[Bucoops]

Crikey, gonna frame that comment 🙃

[Chas Levin]

2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Crikey, gonna frame that comment 🙃

 

Ha - framed in GNR Frame Chocolate Brown I hope? 🤣

 

Your instincts were spot on but then because you had second thoughts, I followed your lead and discounted the idea too: you have a lot more experience than me so it's only natural!

 

One thing I hadn't thought about was how easy it might be to overcome the narrow width of loco bogies in a way that would actually look fine from normal viewing angles. Some sort of frame, with outlying spacers or outer false sides, sort of thing.

 

By the way, how did you find the Phoenix LMS one, or did you know of it already? I spent some time googling things like "6'6" bogie", "6 ft 6 inch bogie" etc but never turned up that one...

[Bucoops]

Mmm, chocolate.

 

Hardly more experienced - I'm still learning every day!

 

Strange as it was the first result for me -

 

 

Perhaps as I've visited the site a few times recently it did some clever stuff to put it at the top of the list?

[Chas Levin]

Wow, that's interesting: you must be right that it's taking recent browsing into account.

 

Actually, that's not as helpful of google as it might be, is it? We surely want to know all the most useful results, not just those with a connection to sites we've already visited!

 

In fact, it's arguably more helpful to see results from sites we haven't visited, as we're less likely to know about their producst already...

 

Well, there we are: the internet is what it is. I'd already decided to spend some more time looking for other possible 6'6" bogies or bogie frames, because I thought there might be things lurking around that hadn't shown up yet and this just makes me more hopeful of finding something...!

[Bucoops]

Curveball - apparently the NER Bo-Bo electric (BR 26500/1) has 6'6" bogies according to here -

 

http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html

 

Perhaps @Michael Edge may be able to rustle something up?

[Chas Levin]

10 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

Curveball - apparently the NER Bo-Bo electric (BR 26500/1) has 6'6" bogies according to here -

 

http://www.clag.org.uk/wheelbase.html

 

Perhaps @Michael Edge may be able to rustle something up?

 

Ooh - nice spot, thanks Rich: that's what I meant about there being more things out there...

 

I'm being told by SWMBO that it's my bedtime now, but in the morning I'll investigate further... They might be a good fit as presumably they'd be wider than steam loco front bogies... 🤔

 

That's a very interesting CLAG page too, one I hadn't come across, though I've only looked through a fraction of what they have online. From a quick scan though, 6'6" obviously wasn't a common wheelbase as it looks like that NER was the only one...

[Chas Levin]

While the unpowered bogie end is being worked on, there's also the question of mounting the body on the powered Black Beetle. The height from rail top to floor (= solebar top) on the Isinglass is 15 mm (3'6" or 14 mm from rail top to buffer centres) so a little experimentation is in order.

I'd greatly prefer not to have to cut out a section of the floorpan but I don't think it can be avoided.

First though, I thought I'd enlarge the two bogie location holes to allow the Beetle's narrowest central pivot screw housing - 4mm - to poke through, just to see what the ride height would be. They're only about 0.5mm on the etch, so you have to work through a lot of reamer sizes and after developing a small blister and seeing the start of a second one, I discovered that you can mount successively larger reamers in a drill, providing you go slowly and very carefully:

 

 

With the hole suitably enlarged, the floorpan sits on that top plastic shoulder beautifully and if things were at the right height, that would be job done:

 

 

However, the distance from rail-top to floor is a rather excessive 18.25mm, so I can't see any alternative to creating a void for the bogie to poke up through the floor. A further complication is that the step level that would be right is also the one on which the wires emerge so a nice, clear surface isn't available to rub under the floor:

 

 

That 4 mm pivot hole in the NS floor fits the bogie's plastic pivot bolt collar so neatly and smoothly that I'd like to keep and use it... so my current thought is to cut out a suitable size piece of the floor - with the pivot hole in the middle - to give the bogie room to pivot and then to fix the cut out piece 3 mm higher than the surrounding floor, by something like soldering brass angle or bar round the edges of the cut-out: sounds more complicated than it is! To put it another way, the idea would be to use that enlarged pivot hole on a raised bit of floor... 🤔

I've nly built unpowered coaches (or bogie wagons) or steam locos to date and this seems more like something that builders of powered coaches, auto-coaches, DMUs or EMUs must deal with on a regular basis, so some further reading is called for...

[Bucoops]

Ah yes, those broach things play havoc with your hands when using them. Not considered running them in a drill before...

[Chas Levin]

Can't recommend highly enough, Rich! Providing you go slowly and maintain straightness etc, it takes all the work out of it, and all the pain! It leaves a sort of raised collar by the time you're finshed, but I ran a much larger drill - by hand - into the collar and took it back down:

 

[John Isherwood]

16 minutes ago, Chas Levin said:

While the unpowered bogie end is being worked on, there's also the question of mounting the body on the powered Black Beetle. The height from rail top to floor (= solebar top) on the Isinglass is 15 mm (3'6" or 14 mm from rail top to buffer centres) so a little experimentation is in order.

I'd greatly prefer not to have to cut out a section of the floorpan but I don't think it can be avoided.

First though, I thought I'd enlarge the two bogie location holes to allow the Beetle's narrowest central pivot screw housing - 4mm - to poke through, just to see what the ride height would be. They're only about 0.5mm on the etch, so you have to work through a lot of reamer sizes and after developing a small blister and seeing the start of a second one, I discovered that you can mount successively larger reamers in a drill, providing you go slowly and very carefully:

 

 

With the hole suitably enlarged, the floorpan sits on that top plastic shoulder beautifully and if things were at the right height, that would be job done:

 

 

However, the distance from rail-top to floor is a rather excessive 18.25mm, so I can't see any alternative to creating a void for the bogie to poke up through the floor. A further complication is that the step level that would be right is also the one on which the wires emerge so a nice, clear surface isn't available to rub under the floor:

 

 

That 4 mm pivot hole in the NS floor fits the bogie's plastic pivot bolt collar so neatly and smoothly that I'd like to keep and use it... so my current thought is to cut out a suitable size piece of the floor - with the pivot hole in the middle - to give the bogie room to pivot and then to fix the cut out piece 3 mm higher than the surrounding floor, by something like soldering brass angle or bar round the edges of the cut-out: sounds more complicated than it is! To put it another way, the idea would be to use that enlarged pivot hole on a raised bit of floor... 🤔

I've nly built unpowered coaches (or bogie wagons) or steam locos to date and this seems more like something that builders of powered coaches, auto-coaches, DMUs or EMUs must deal with on a regular basis, so some further reading is called for...

 

When faced with the same height problem when motorising a Kitmaster Midland Pullman power car, I cut off the section of floor that would be over the BB, and raised it by the necessary amount with a spacer - in other words, a cranked floor.

 

It worked a treat!

 

CJI.

[chris p bacon]

I do it occasionally but I run the drill veeeerrrryy slowly as I made a hash of something  few years ago by being a bit gung ho with the drill.

[Chas Levin]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

When faced with the same height problem when motorising a Kitmaster Midland Pullman power car, I cut off the section of floor that would be over the BB, and raised it by the necessary amount with a spacer - in other words, a cranked floor.

 

It worked a treat!

 

CJI.

Thanks John - exactly, a cranked floor! That's what I was trying to describe and I knew there must be a sensible phrase for it but I couldn't think what it should be.