Middleton Top and the C&HPR

[JustinDean]

4 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

 

I remember reading about how a lot of crossing keeper's houses had their drinking water delivered daily in a milk churn. What was done for other requirements I'm not sure.

Having had to sit through the usual adverts in the middle of a film the memsahib pointed out that if you believe the figures quoted, you are fourteen times more likely to die of drinking dirty water than you are to find love on eHarmony...

 

Which is why I don't have a "trunk" at Hattons!

I haven’t come across that info about milk churns but I have seen plenty of photographic evidence of churns in random railway locations on the line. 

[JustinDean]

The LNWR dock tank has now been painted and numbered. Some chassis parts need refitting next. 
 

Jay

 

 

[JustinDean]

2 hours ago, Rowsley17D said:

 

The water was to supply the company's tied houses and cottages along the route with a water supply as they were not on the mains.

Also to supply locomotives at Middleton Top and Longcliffe. 

[MrWolf]

16 minutes ago, JustinDean said:

I haven’t come across that info about milk churns but I have seen plenty of photographic evidence of churns in random railway locations on the line. 

 

It's possible, I haven't heard of it on the C&HPR, (although I haven't studied it anything like you will have) but it certainly happened on a number of GW lines and IIRC the Shropshire and Montgomery.

[MrWolf]

20 minutes ago, JustinDean said:

I met my missus on Bumble and haven’t died from dirty water. Living proof those odds are correct. 

 

I met mine at a "Sleep awareness course". I felt sorry for the chap running it. We were the only two regular attendants out of a dozen or so registered and he had to keep saying "If we can come back out of the rabbit hole just for a minute...."

 

 

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Tortuga said:

I’ve now added a 1800 gallon Webb six-wheel tender to my “needed” list. Would I be right in thinking this is the type of tender usually found behind a ‘Super D’?

 

No, not at all. It's the size usually found behind the 6-wheeled Webb engines - coal engines, 18" goods, Whitworths, Precursors, etc. Super Ds had Whale or Bowen Cooke tenders with proper steel frames:

 

 

[Embedded link to Wikimedia Commons.]

 

If you want an 1,800 gal Webb tender, then either you have to rob a Rails / Locomotion Precursor or build a London Road Models kit. (There was certainly a GEM whitemetal kit, possibly Ks too, if you can find them.)

[Tortuga]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

If you want an 1,800 gal Webb tender, then either you have to rob a Rails / Locomotion Precursor or build a London Road Models kit. (There was certainly a GEM whitemetal kit, possibly Ks too, if you can find them.)

B*gger! Another kit to build! Thanks for the link though (and I’ll check out the suggestions for whitemetal kits as well).

 

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

No, not at all. It's the size usually found behind the 6-wheeled Webb engines - coal engines, 18" goods, Whitworths, Precursors, etc. Super Ds had Whale or Bowen Cooke tenders with proper steel frames:

[Embedded link to Wikimedia Commons.]

I thought there was something off about the tender at Alsop: it had the flared edge and ‘swept’ front steps, yet once I see a photo; nothing like!

[JustinDean]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No, not at all. It's the size usually found behind the 6-wheeled Webb engines - coal engines, 18" goods, Whitworths, Precursors, etc. Super Ds had Whale or Bowen Cooke tenders with proper steel frames:

 

 

[Embedded link to Wikimedia Commons.]

 

If you want an 1,800 gal Webb tender, then either you have to rob a Rails / Locomotion Precursor or build a London Road Models kit. (There was certainly a GEM whitemetal kit, possibly Ks too, if you can find them.)

Thanks for clearing that up!

 

Jay

[JustinDean]

I’ve been thinking about the tender kits I have since the above conversation and thought it was time to check over a box of goodies I bought off eBay a few weeks ago. The box of mystery contains hundreds of locomotive parts but in the listing photos I noticed a set of tender bits. I’ve just split these bits out of the stash resulting in the following collection of parts:

 

[Tortuga]

Those wouldn’t be parts for three 6-wheel 1800 gallon Webb tenders by any chance would they?

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Those wouldn’t be parts for three 6-wheel 1800 gallon Webb tenders by any chance would they?

 

They certainly look very Webby. three-and-a-half, by the look of it. I'm not sure off-hand to distinguish between Webb's 1,500 gal and 1,800 gal tenders, not that that matters, I think.

[Tortuga]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

They certainly look very Webby. three-and-a-half, by the look of it. I'm not sure off-hand to distinguish between Webb's 1,500 gal and 1,800 gal tenders, not that that matters, I think.

I realised that just after I’d posted my comment!

[JustinDean]

I’ll post some appropriate details regarding Webb tenders and other water tanks when I get home to Wirksworth in a couple of days. I don’t won’t to risk any more disinformation after my brain fart on here the other day!

 

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by JustinDean

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, JustinDean said:

 

if you were to use one of the LRM kits to represent this, you would avoid one of the faffiest bits - making the curve in the flare at the rear corners!

[Tortuga]

1 hour ago, JustinDean said:

I’ll post some appropriate details regarding Webb tenders and other water tanks when I get home to Wirksworth in a couple of days. I don’t won’t to risk any more disinformation after my brain fart on here the other day!

 

 

Please do. I’m not an expert on tenders by any means, but I’m fairly certain one of the Foxline books mentioned that some of the water carriers were water tanks on old tender underframes rather than repurposed tenders: is that an example in the photo?

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, Tortuga said:

Please do. I’m not an expert on tenders by any means, but I’m fairly certain one of the Foxline books mentioned that some of the water carriers were water tanks on old tender underframes rather than repurposed tenders: is that an example in the photo?

 

The photo shows a genuine Webb tender that has had the flare around the top of the tank removed, along with the centre axle, axleguards, etc., and new buffer beams fitted at each end (I think), together with a handrail at what had been the leading end. 

 

There were some water carriers that had "new" tanks on the frames of McConnell tenders - the "new" tanks probably dating from the 1880s or so when the McConnell engines were withdrawn:

 

 

This 4 March 1967 photo, credited to J.W. Sutherland, has been taken from this website:

http://sutherland.davenportstation.org.uk/aaprint/chp.html.

Looking through there, I also see Webb tenders that still have their flares (as for example on the RH edge of this photo) and a pair of Whale or Bowen Cooke tenders.

 

The McConnell tender frames got recycled for a number of purposes, including the bogies for high-capacity well wagons. There 6-wheel design was the commonest but the 4-wheeler is interesting; 4-wheel tenders were fitted to Bloomers working local services in the West Midlands. The first station at Sutton Coldfield had a turntable as the engine release, so this may have been the reason:

 

 

[Embedded link to Warwickshire Railways image lnwrsc2610a.]

Edited February 18, 2023 by Compound2632

[JustinDean]

Walked down to Sheep Pasture with the hound today for a change rather than Middleton Top. 
 

 

 

[Dava]

I’m following this project with interest, having known the CHPR for 40 years and walked or cycled most of it. I am exploring a modelling project, possibly of Steeple Grange goods yard and the adjacent junctions with the branches to the Killers and Smarts quarries, now relaid by the 18” gauge Steeple Grange Light Railway. This section was the last haunt of the LNWR Choppers. The goods yard site is now houses, one being the former goods agent cottage, the site of the former stables is another house. 
 

Alf Rimmer’s book includes track diagrams which are consistent with the OS 25” scale maps, as below. But I’ve found very few photos of the goods yard and buildings, as distinct from the Killers branch area now occupied by the SGLR,. Any views of the yard and stables building would be very helpful. There is an evocative ColourRail view of a Chopper tank passing the yard, (I’d like an original slide copy) but it would breach copyright to reproduce it here. 
 

As to scale, I considered 2mm finescale (a Chopper chassis kit is available) but it’s just too small for me. I am considering TT120 with hand built track, but nothing is definite. 7mm is my normal scale, but would take all my available space.

 

Dava

Photo from SGLR website https://www.sglr.co.uk/history

LMS diagram from Rimmer book.

[JustinDean]

19 hours ago, Dava said:

I’m following this project with interest, having known the CHPR for 40 years and walked or cycled most of it. I am exploring a modelling project, possibly of Steeple Grange goods yard and the adjacent junctions with the branches to the Killers and Smarts quarries, now relaid by the 18” gauge Steeple Grange Light Railway. This section was the last haunt of the LNWR Choppers. The goods yard site is now houses, one being the former goods agent cottage, the site of the former stables is another house. 
 

Alf Rimmer’s book includes track diagrams which are consistent with the OS 25” scale maps, as below. But I’ve found very few photos of the goods yard and buildings, as distinct from the Killers branch area now occupied by the SGLR,. Any views of the yard and stables building would be very helpful. There is an evocative ColourRail view of a Chopper tank passing the yard, (I’d like an original slide copy) but it would breach copyright to reproduce it here. 
 

As to scale, I considered 2mm finescale (a Chopper chassis kit is available) but it’s just too small for me. I am considering TT120 with hand built track, but nothing is definite. 7mm is my normal scale, but would take all my available space.

 

Dava

Photo from SGLR website https://www.sglr.co.uk/history

LMS diagram from Rimmer book.

Hi Dava, I think Steeplehouse lends itself really well to creating a small layout and have often thought about doing this myself.

I've never managed to find photos of the weighbridge and office, a clear view of the front stables and the coal stacks but I do have some good views in my collection....

[JustinDean]

First up here's a Britain From Above overview:

[JustinDean]

The entire yard was perched beyond the retaining wall behind this young chap. Station cottage on the left, end of the stable on the right looking north:

[JustinDean]

This is towards the end of the 60's. Most of the tree growth has been removed revealing the tiny loading dock to the main route and the north side of station cottage:

[JustinDean]

East side of the cottage shown here. This view is the only one I've found showing any of the yard. The loading dock is just peeking out of the undergrowth on the right

[JustinDean]

The photographer has moved a little further east to capture a wider view of the junction clearly showing Killers branch off to the right and the quarry siding with the route to Middlepeak curving off to the left:

[JustinDean]

Looking in the opposite direction from the same spot is this John Evans photo: