NSE Railway Society copyright issues?

[big jim]

Don’t know what to make if this really, a twitter member has put some pics up of some work he has done on some network south east models, Only to be singled out by the Network south east society...note the reply below the initial post...

 

the link to the NSE society website is below 

 

https://www.nsers.org/trademark.html

 

as I say I genuinely don’t know what to make of it but seems from other tweets too that you have to ask to seek permission from the society to use the logos if you intend to make a profit from your models, similarly those transfer producers who already make NSE transfers will have to ask for permission from now on too

 

see this further tweet 

[rob D2]

I’m sure a lawyer will be along soon to give their expert advice, but I’d have thought NSE branding belongs to whatever government department the British railways board became ? Not sure if a trademark is same as copyright ?

[AY Mod]

5 hours ago, big jim said:

you have to ask to seek permission from the society to use the logos if you intend to make a profit from your models,

 

That is correct.

[7821]

you can however do the models yourself under fair usage without permission  

[pirouets]

I'm no twitter expert so trying to follow all the replies was a bit confusing but it does look like he then apologised for confusion (1:24 today), though in truth I read the thread and lots of people hadn't grasped what he was trying to say either. As Andy says though if anyone is selling something they did, then you need permission. 

[big jim]

20 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

That is correct.

what would happen to a Transfer company Who already has a stock of transfers made under an old agreement?

 

And say I painted a loco in NSE livery and decided to sell it on eBay as surplus to requirement, or indeed decided to sell my Bachmann NSE thumper unit could they get the listing pulled? 

[AY Mod]

6 minutes ago, big jim said:

what would happen to a Transfer company Who already has a stock of transfers made under an old agreement?

 

If the supplier had the appropriate permissions at the relevant time I wouldn't think there'd be an issue.

 

On the second point it may be better to ask the society rather than me.

[7821]

16 minutes ago, big jim said:

 

 

And say I painted a loco in NSE livery and decided to sell it on eBay as surplus to requirement, or indeed decided to sell my Bachmann NSE thumper unit could they get the listing pulled? 

that would come under the fair usage part of copyright law and as they were not done for profit you would be fine but say you were to start to sell the same thing over and over again then unless you could prove a reason for say 10 items the same then that could be classed as an infringement  

[AY Mod]

23 minutes ago, 7821 said:

that would come under the fair usage part of copyright law and as they were not done for profit you would be fine but say you were to start to sell the same thing over and over again then unless you could prove a reason for say 10 items the same then that could be classed as an infringement  

 

Are you posting this from a position of authority or experience? Please post links for any substantiation for the quantities stated.

[7821]

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/part/I/chapter/III

 

making copies of other peoples work for your own use is not a copyright infringement 

[AY Mod]

21 minutes ago, 7821 said:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/part/I/chapter/III

 

making copies of other peoples work for your own use is not a copyright infringement 

 

I'm au fait with that, where are your arbitrary quantities from? 

 

Aside from your interpretation of law what is your experience in giving !eval advice? 

[7821]

12 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

I'm au fait with that, where are your arbitrary quantities from? 

 

Aside from your interpretation of law what is your experience in giving legal advice? 

sorry dont get your point 

 

it clearly states that copying others work for your own use is not an infringement im sure we could find loads more info if we wanted but i would think that .GOV would be a safe bet for all we need

 

[AY Mod]

3 minutes ago, 7821 said:

sorry dont get your point 

 

 

I asked you for your source of the arbitrary quantities, a simple enough question.

 

Providing a link to the law does not answer that question.

[7821]

ok its simple really if you made 10 items of say a class 50 all the same number then that could be seen as a production run but if you made 10 coaches then you can say that you need ten coaches for the rake.

 

so the quantities will vary depending on what your doing 

 

you could make yourself 1 maybe 2 hogwarts locos but if you made more then that could be considered a production of them but the main bit is that they are for your own use

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, rob D2 said:

I’m sure a lawyer will be along soon to give their expert advice, but I’d have thought NSE branding belongs to whatever government department the British railways board became ? Not sure if a trademark is same as copyright ?

 

I have a feeling that either it is slightly different, or they weren’t registered by BR originally. It seems that Great Western Trains (i.e. the first GW franchisee after privatisation) registered ‘INTERCITY’ as a trademark:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thebeautyoftransport.com/2016/10/05/the-train-on-kaleidoscope-lines-british-passenger-railway-post-privatisation-visual-identities/amp/

‘Great Western Trains registered the pre-privatisation Intercity wordmark as a trademark.’

 

The key point seems to be that it’s the branding as BR used, so presumably just the word ‘intercity’ or ‘inter-city’ which has been/is used by other UK rail companies is fine. But if they were able to do this then presumably the same is possible with the NSE branding (and with Railfreight, Regional etc. as well?). Also I wonder if someone could advise on the technicalities but do trademarks lapse if not used?

 

Edit: apparently copyright is automatic, trademark has to be registered: https://www.loveniplaw.co.uk/difference-trademark-copyright/

Edited April 13, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[andyman7]

16 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

The key point seems to be that it’s the branding as BR used, so presumably just the word ‘intercity’ or ‘inter-city’ which has been/is used by other UK rail companies is fine. But if they were able to do this then presumably the same is possible with the NSE branding (and with Railfreight, Regional etc. as well?). Also I wonder if someone could advise on the technicalities but do trademarks lapse if not used?

Yes they do. Part of my work with ATOC was to help the legal team review and understand which terms were active terms to stop them becoming restricted in use by another party trademarking them. At one time there was an attempt by Rover Group to assert the right of that name for transport purposes that we had to respond to to avoid the Rail Rover product names accidentally being restricted.

 

The Network SouthEast issue is interesting because of course many models in existence pre-date the NSE Society's assertion of rights over the trademark. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by andyman7

[009 micro modeller]

5 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

Yes they do. Part of my work with ATOC was to help the legal team review and understand which terms were active terms to stop them becoming restricted in use by another party copyrighting them. At one time there was an attempt by Rover Group to assefrt the right of that name for trademark purposes that we had to respond to to avoid the Rail Roverr product name accidentally being restricted.

 

The Network SouthEast issue is interesting because of course many models in existence pre-date the NSE Society's assertion of rights over the trademark. 

Does this suggest that, in the Great Western/Intercity case, it hadn’t previously been registered at all? Because I can see NSE having lapsed by now (over 20 years after privatisation) but Great Western Trains supposedly registered INTERCITY immediately after they took over, when the branding would  presumably still have been all over the rail network.

Edited April 13, 2020 by 009 micro modeller

[big jim]

58 minutes ago, 7821 said:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/part/I/chapter/III

 

making copies of other peoples work for your own use is not a copyright infringement 

that’s what I thought hence why I started the thread, it seemed at first read that the NSE society were coming down hard on an individual modeller for showing his NSE branding on his own model on Twitter 

 

it appears to me now that it it was a member of said society trying to be a mouthpiece and was corrected by a person with more authority, (that’s how I see it anyway) 
 

I totally get the making money out of a logo position, I had to get permission from colas to get some decals made for some models (class 67 or 70 iirc) when I worked for them and they were keen to make sure I only had the correct number made for my own use with a few spare livery elements incase of errors 

[andyman7]

Just now, 009 micro modeller said:

Does this suggest that, in the Great Western/Intercity case, it hadn’t previously been registered at all? Because I can see NSE having lapsed by now (over 20 years after privatisation) but Great Western Trains supposedly registered INTERCITY immediately after they took over, while the branding would still have been all over the rail network.

Great Western didn't register the InterCity brand, it was retained as a licensed marque available to all the former InterCity TOCs by ATOC but most TOCs wanted to have nothing to do with any of the ex British Rail brands. Only Great Western chose to use it. Pullman is another reserved marque, and GWR are the only ones to currently use it for their scheduled Pullman dining services. The use in relation to scheduled services does not impinge on charter and private operators - rather it is to stop one of them preventing a National Rail operator from using it. 

[Flood]

If you take the link to their trademark page it states:

 

"The Society is happy to offer support and advice to anyone interested in learning more about all aspects
of the Network SouthEast period.

They are not trying to stop the use of the name and logo by the trade and preservation movement or raise money,
on the contrary the Society wish to encourage its use – all they ask is that permission is obtained in advance.
Brand manager John Shepherd is keen to talk to all interested parties. "

 

Clearly they are just asking for a bit of politeness.

[pirouets]

Looking at the trademark itself  - UK00003110943 (I know to much time on my hands at the moment) they have only registered 3 variants of Network SoutEast but it does not look like they applied for Network SouthCentral as well which is in the picture. Looking at the guidance on trademarks that needed an application as well as I read the examples.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/trade-mark-series-applications

[big jim]

1 minute ago, Flood said:

Clearly they are just asking for a bit of politeness.

Politeness works both ways 

 

the twitter user simply put a picture of his NSE branded unit (or could possibly be NSE ‘inspired’ branding), I don’t know if ‘network south central’ existed within NSE, only to be told bluntly by someone supposedly within the NSE society that the branding is copyright! 

 

stupid thing is this has really bothered me today, Worried that aspects of future modelling will be affected by individuals/groups/societies whoever buying up out of copyright liveries, logos, designs etc to make a quick buck, if they don’t get however much they want for a company to use their copyrighted livery then it won’t get produced and we all lose out

 

 I’m sure something similar happened in the past with ‘in copyright’ EWS livery elements which meant there was a shortage of ‘official’ decals for ages as none were getting produced 

[AY Mod]

57 minutes ago, 7821 said:

ok its simple really if you made 10 items of say a class 50 all the same number then that could be seen as a production run but if you made 10 coaches then you can say that you need ten coaches for the rake.

 

so the quantities will vary depending on what your doing 

 

you could make yourself 1 maybe 2 hogwarts locos but if you made more then that could be considered a production of them but the main bit is that they are for your own use

 

So you're just making permissible numbers up? And giving advice on the basis of that?

[andyman7]

19 minutes ago, pirouets said:

Looking at the trademark itself  - UK00003110943 (I know to much time on my hands at the moment) they have only registered 3 variants of Network SoutEast but it does not look like they applied for Network SouthCentral as well which is in the picture. Looking at the guidance on trademarks that needed an application as well as I read the examples.

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/trade-mark-series-applications

Network SouthEast ceased to exist as a business unit of British Rail on 1 May 1994 when the shadow privatsiation structure came into being.  The TOUs were required to retain the relevant BR branding until they were sold off and not to indulge in any rebranding whilst they were for sale. The only allowed exception was Thameslink which had some 319s coming up for C6 repaints - they were allowed to have these painted in light grey with the Thameslink diamond logo on the side. My masters at the South Central division of NSE decided however to be a little rebellious which is why the Network SouthEast logos were changed to Network SouthCentral. You could hardly call it branding, it was a minor gesture and to hear it being argued over 25 years later as a copyright issue is quite frankly hilarious.

Incidentally, when CGEA of France acquired South Central, they planned a rebrand (the notorious 'Connex') which was a few months away. However, their new MD was not amused to see a CIG unit emerge from C6 repaint in full NSC toothpaste colours, but of course no-one had actually given the works any alternative instructions on what to paint the trains. A hasty set of calls saw all subsequent repaints appear in pale grey until the Connex livery was launched.

Edited April 13, 2020 by andyman7

[newbryford]

[flippant post time - may have been influenced by lockdown cabin fever and alcohol]

 

Can I copyright various shades of yellow?