Schooner's (Mostly Maritime) Musings

[Annie]

33 minutes ago, Schooner said:

On subject LSWR and quaysides, and cos it's the sort of thing you lot very sweetly indulge me in, Topsham:

Nice, - I like that.

[Schooner]

(Bristol's Port and Pier Railway, 1890s. Embedded link, high resolution so do open in new tab to get the benefit)

 

No reason. 

[Annie]

5 minutes ago, Schooner said:

(Bristol's Port and Pier Railway, 1890s. Embedded link, high resolution so do open in new tab to get the benefit)

 

No reason. 

The terminus is a perfect example of a model railway trackplan.  It even has a tunnel to hide the fiddle yard behind.

[Schooner]

Clifton Station > Sneyd Park Junction (GWR + MR on-scene; to fiddle yard) > Shirehampton Station (is that a carriage shed view block + engine shed offscene beyond road overbridge?) > dock and Crown Brick/Bottle Works sidings > Avonmouth Station.

 

Indecently modellable!

[magmouse]

And how can one resist the impossibly romantically-named 'Lamplighter's Hotel' at Pill?

 

http://www.shiresoft.net/riverside_bar/history/oct1895(2)bw.jpg

Edited January 15, 2023 by magmouse
Added link to picture

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

(Bristol's Port and Pier Railway, 1890s. Embedded link, high resolution so do open in new tab to get the benefit)

 

No reason. 

 

gorgeous

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Annie said:

The terminus is a perfect example of a model railway trackplan.  It even has a tunnel to hide the fiddle yard behind.

 

This one?

 

 

[The White Rabbit]

1 hour ago, magmouse said:

And how can one resist the impossibly romantically-named 'Lamplighter's Hotel' at Pill?

 

http://www.shiresoft.net/riverside_bar/history/oct1895(2)bw.jpg

 

More prosaically and less romantically (perhaps!) I've named the fictional waterside/lineside pub on mine 'The Drunken Duck'. There is a prototype ... shame it's a fair few miles inland... https://drunkenduckinn.co.uk/ 

[magmouse]

1 minute ago, The White Rabbit said:

 

More prosaically and less romantically (perhaps!) I've named the fictional waterside/lineside pub on mine 'The Drunken Duck'. There is a prototype ... shame it's a fair few miles inland... https://drunkenduckinn.co.uk/ 

Romance always has its limits - the Lamplighter’s Hotel sounds wonderful, but actually faces the tidal mud banks of the river - not so beautiful, and probably smelly on hot days…

 

Nick.

[Annie]

24 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

This one?

 

 

 

Yes this one.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Annie
Um.........

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, magmouse said:

Romance always has its limits - the Lamplighter’s Hotel sounds wonderful, but actually faces the tidal mud banks of the river - not so beautiful, and probably smelly on hot days…

 

Since a lamplighter's job was to run from lamppost to lamppost lighting the gas, he would probably have had his sense of smell knocked out by continual exposure to town gas.

 

I can recall, perhaps thirty years ago, Trevor Bailey (or possibly Henry Blofeld) on TMS describing someone scoring a quick single as "running like a lamplighter".

[magmouse]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Since a lamplighter's job was to run from lamppost to lamppost lighting the gas, he would probably have had his sense of smell knocked out by continual exposure to town gas.

 

I can recall, perhaps thirty years ago, Trevor Bailey (or possibly Henry Blofeld) on TMS describing someone scoring a quick single as "running like a lamplighter".

The website with the photo I linked to says the hotel was previously the Lamplighter’s Hall. The local area, according to the map, is called Lamplighter’s. I wonder whether the lamplighters referred to where responsible for navigation lights along the river, for ships making the tricky passage into Bristol docks at night.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, magmouse said:

I wonder whether the lamplighters referred to where responsible for navigation lights along the river, for ships making the tricky passage into Bristol docks at night.

 

So they were the leading lights of the district?

[magmouse]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So they were the leading lights of the district?

Hopefully not in the Cornish Wreckers sense…

 

Nick.

 

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Hopefully not in the Cornish Wreckers sense…

 

I though those were false lights? My knowledge of navigation is derived from devouring Swallows and Amazons many, many years ago, with a bit of more recent reinforcement from Patrick O'Brien.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Compound2632

[magmouse]

22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I though those were false lights? My knowledge of navigation is derived from devouring Swallows and Amazons many, many years ago, with a bit of more recent reinforcement from Patrick O'Brien.

 

False lights, or mis-leading lights?

 

I can match your Swallows and Amazons reading, but you beat me with O'Brien...

[Schooner]

On 15/01/2023 at 13:40, Edwardian said:

This one?

With c.6' under the bridge in O it could go over the door :)

 

On 15/01/2023 at 17:04, Compound2632 said:

a bit of more recent reinforcement from Patrick O'Brien.

Frowned upon to scream 'Hard a' Larboard!' at your helm nowadays, but otherwise you're good to go!

 

On 15/01/2023 at 16:54, magmouse said:

Cornish Wreckers

Reminds me that Mark Jenkin's new film, Enys Men, is out nowish. As the extraordinary Bait delivered the most powerful cinema experiences I've ever undergone, I'm very much looking forward to finding out what he can do in colour. 

 

We've seen one end of the line, under the eponymous cliffs. The other end was rather different:

 

Another aspect that would lend itself to creating the impression of having travelled some miles within the bounds of the layout room. 

[Edwardian]

On 15/01/2023 at 17:28, magmouse said:

 

 

I can match your Swallows and Amazons reading, but you beat me with O'Brien...

 

Ah, but which is the lesser of two weevils?

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Schooner said:

Frowned upon to scream 'Hard a' Larboard!' at your helm nowadays, but otherwise you're good to go!

 

49 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Ah, but which is the lesser of two weevils?

 

I am familiar with the perils of a lee shore.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

I am familiar with the perils of a lee shore.

 

For those unfamiliar with with the terminology ....

 

 

The incident that always comes to my miind in this connection is the action of the frigates HMS Indefatigable and HMS Amazon when they engaged a French 74-gun ship of the line, Droits de l'Homme, and drove it onto a lee shore. Amazon was also lost on the lee shore, though her crew survived, but with immense skill and determination, Indefatigable, under the command of the famed frigate Captain Sir Edward Pellew, managed to effect repairs and beat off the lee shore to safety.

 

 

 

 

The incident very much underscored the perils of a lee shore, and showed what happens when you commit regicide and then name a naval ship for an abstract egalitarian principle rather than conferring a proper name upon it.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Edwardian
Spelling!

[magmouse]

3 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

name a naval ship for an abstract egalitarian principle rather than conferring a proper name upon a ship.

 

HMS Amazon seems to be an early example of commercial sponsorship...

[Compound2632]

30 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

The incident very much underscored the perils of a lee shore, and showed what happens when you commit regicide and then name a naval ship for an abstract egalitarian principle rather than conferring a proper name upon it.

 

The Rights of Man is the merchantman from which Billy Budd is impressed to serve on HMS Bellipotent (according to Melville) or HMS Indomitable (according to Foster and Britten - I suppose it's an easier name to sing).

Edited January 17, 2023 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

27 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Rights of Man is the merchantman from which Billy Budd is impressed to serve on HMS Bellipotent (according to Melville) or HMS Indomitable (according to Foster and Britten - I suppose it's an easier name to sing).

 

A somewhat propagandist take by Melville, given impressment of Britiah sailors serving on US ships was a casus belli of the War of 1812. Obviously calling the merchantman Rights of Man is a somewhat clumsy attempt to suggest that the RN is violating such rights. Bellipotent is, presumably, an equally clumsy attempt to conjure a name suggesting bellicosty and tyranny from the name of the famous Napoleonic ship HMS Bellerophon, although the name of the Greek hero appears etymologically unrelated to bellicose, unless the latin word bellum ultimately derived fro the greek bélos, meaning "projectile, dart, javelin, needle, arrow", though bellum seems to be a evolution of the latin duellum which is thought to derive from the greek daíō, “to burn”, so likely Melville is simply relying upon the similarity in the sound of the words. 

 

It's quite endearing the way Americans characterise tax evasion in the Eighteenth Century as a principled stand for the rights of man that has justified US particularism ever since. Of course, I find English particularism and the delusions it fosters far more dangerous and cuplable. See BREXIT.  

[The White Rabbit]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Ah, but which is the lesser of two weevils?

 

The one which eats less [ship's?] biscuit? 😉

 

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

For those unfamiliar with with the terminology ....

 

 

The incident that always comes to my mind in this connection is the action of the frigates HMS Indefatigable and HMS Amazon when they engaged a French 74-gun ship of the line, Droits de l'Homme, and drove it onto a lee shore. Amazon was also lost on the lee shore, though her crew survived, but with immense skill and determination, Indefatigable, under the command of the famed frigate Captain Sir Edward Pellew, managed to effect repairs and beat off the lee shore to safety.

 

The incident very much underscored the perils of a lee shore... 

 

Just to add a bit for nautical novices: the particular problem for the Royal Navy in this engagement was that the three ships were 'embayed' in gale-force winds off the Brittany coast, with a lee shore in front of them and on both sides and square rigged ships can't point as closely into the wind as modern fore and aft rigged dinghies or yachts to enable them to tack out of danger. The strength of the wind meant the ships were pushed onto the shore more than they would have been on - say - a peaceful summer's day with a fresh breeze blowing. The French suffered from having their gun-decks crowded with many supernumeraries after a failed attempt to invade Ireland and high waves meant they could not open their lower deck ports, denying them much of their firepower and allowing the two frigates to engage when normally they would not have been able to. The two frigates 'hounded' Droits de l'Homme into a position of no return and it was wrecked, with high casualties. 

 

[drmditch]

It is now some ten years since I was last afloat under sail, although I hope that, when I have overcome the current complaints of my ageing body, I may yet do so again.

As it happens, my waking dream this morning featured memories of sailing a heavy, three crew, 22ft dinghy in a race which started in a light and fluky westerly. We managed to get to the first (windward) mark ahead of the other thirty or so boats , just as a heavy bar of dark could announced the imminent arrival of a local storm front. We got round the mark, and hoisted the (rather large) spinnaker*  thoroughly aware of increasing and shifting wind. However, since we were in front of better boats (and better sailors) there was no way we were going to let them sail over us. 

We hung on until just the last possible moment, and then dropped the spinnaker. and got the boat close-hauled** on the now furious and gusty northerly to get to the next mark. 

The two boats behind who had been closing the distance hung on too long. One blew out their spinnaker and damaged their rig, and one fell over. We survived and carried on and were eventually able to win the race, and then to anchor in the lee of a moored ship, drop the sails, and have coffee!

 

Sorry if this seems like boasting, (and nothing to do with railways) but it illustrates several points, even though it relates to a fore-and-aft rigged dinghy with a crew of three, rather then a big  square-rigger with a crew of hundreds.

 

Firstly, any vessel has to cope with the wind (and tide***) it encounters, not the conditions it's crew think they ought to have.

Secondly, the skill of the crew is vital, and they have to work together at the right time and the right way.

Thirdly, the helm/skipper/captain (whatever you call the person who makes the decisions) has got to know what they are doing and make the right decisions at the right time.  

There is no room and no time for debate.

 

This dependence on relatively 'low-tech' equipment, physical effort, and teamwork, is something that has largely vanished from the way that most of us live now.

Also, in our society, there are few places and times when we are totally dependent on the 'natural' forces of wind and weather. When we are, we tend to complain bitterly and claim that it is someone's fault.

 

Mr Edwardian mentions the Indefatigable and the Amazon, and the destruction of the Droit-de-l'Homme (and the six hundred or so of her crew). 

The example I am always amazed by, whenever I read (and re-read) of it, is the Battle of Quiberon Bay in 1759.

Two fleets of big square-rigged ships carrying hundreds of tons of artillery, sailing and fighting in a rising gale, on a lee shore, with fierce tides and islands and rocks all around. At least one French ship went straight down when they opened their gunports and mis-judged the roll of the ship.

In our national myth I don't think Admiral Hawke gets the remembrance he deserves.

 

However, in the days of working (and fighting) sail, there were perhaps many times when equivalent skill and judgement  were displayed, but taken for granted and not properly valued at all.

 

I also grew up with the Arthur Ransome books and they are about due for a re-read, and not just for their social history.

I must get to sea under sail again!

 

*      spinnaker  - the big balloon like sail that photographers love.

**    close hauled - a sailing vessel rigged to sail as close to the wind as possible. 

***  Mr Edwardian's nice diagram above doesn't show the effect the tide can have.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by drmditch