Schooner's (Mostly Maritime) Musings

[Schooner]

Prompted by the arrival of some new passengers at Farthing, I thought I better start gathering some references for peopling Ingleford (a scene set on a sunny Spring lunch break):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyone fancy half an apple?

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Schooner

[kitpw]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

Anyone fancy half an apple?

...no, thankyou; but a snooze in the wheelbarrow would do very nicely.

 

[Mikkel]

What, no lace parasols? 😀

[Dave John]

Some fantastic images there.  Tackety boots as we kent them. 

 

For some reason an obscure snippet of conversation comes to mind, though from where I cannot remember . 

 

" I am now a working man, for I am wearing working mans boots " 

 

" Nae son, they are nae working mans boots till they have working mans feet in them "

 

 

[MrWolf]

I wish I could remember who it was that said "If you have to wash your hands before you go to the toilet, you're working class".

[Schooner]

 

BOO!

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Schooner
Sorted the shed over the weekend. Found a totally-forgotten box of stock carefully packed away 20+ years ago...she's a runner! As for layout progress, I'm building bridges...updates anon

[Schooner]

Things a bit quiet here as they've picked up at the other place, but there's not been total neglect of all things London.

 

@magmouse posted a rather fine pic of some warehouse hoists, which reminded me that the other two parts of my Virtua in Industria homage are probably ready to share here for review and comment.

 

The first is, as expected, my mad attempt to cram half the Port of London onto a 5'x2' tabletop layout. It'll be familiar to many, apologies, but thought I might as well repost the lot in one place:

Plan

 

Gull's eye view

 

Operator's view. 

 

Touchstones:

 

Private warehouse

 

Rail depot

 

Crane

 

Transit shed and bonded warehouse (low relief)

 

Ship to be on a removable extension a) for safe storage and b) for exchange, it being the only thing to date the layout to almost any period between 1850-1950.

 

Layout fulfils the original criterion from when I started with this lark - a shared space for a High Level Neilson 0-4-0T and a Billings Boats Cutty Sark. (At 1:75 I think it preferable to Sergal's offering in 1:78. I don't need false perspective, and would rather it tended towards over- rather than underwhelm). Rolling the clock on a bit would excuse a model of SS Robin, with Hornby W4 and Dapol Hawtorn Leslie in PLA livery etc. The last sailing barge (Cambria) worked under sail until 1970, so it's incongruous but legitimate to leave the front of the layout alone for any period I might be tempted by.

 

Operations could follow prototype fairly closely: Worked by two locos, the morning trip (07-08.00) brings in 3-4 wagons per dock into the exchange loop. They, empties and internals are worked as required (some form of RNG, perhaps the freight generator developed for the NM&GSRy) on the 12+ spots (five berths on two quays, seven+ 'users')  Midday shunt (12-13.00) - as req. Evening trip (17-18.00) mirrors the morning. Midnight shunt (22.00-02.00) mirrors the midday.

 

Quite a lot of train-playing potential. Megalols.

 

That's the sensible one :)

 

*tea break*

 

The seed for Plan the Second was planted when I spotted an Inglenook-esque tucked away in the corner of the spur off the L&B towards the LT&SR Commercial Road Depot, just East of Leman St Station):

 

...which seemed too good not to attempt :)

 

Plan. When you've stopped laughing, we'll proceed...

 

Offstage cassette to allow a train of c.6 wagons to enter stage right, into the arrival road, 3 for each Inglenook*. The cheeky single slip allows for on-stage running round. The two puzzles are independent, allowing competitive play. H is the headshunt for each puzzle, tiny stub siding front right is exchange loop loco release and/or break van spur. 

 

*This is a reversal of the norm. In this case 3 of the 8 wagons are exchanged each time, rather than 5. The game is the same, just who stays and who goes is flipped. This ensures the two '3' roads are empty at the start/end of a game. 

 

From the back, we've a pair of passenger lines (rearmost to hold a train waiting at the signal gantry) and pair of relief/goods lines (which could host a loco shuttling between them and the Down passenger line). At the front, two opposing Inglenooks which share arrival and depature facilities. On the right, the puzzle represents a secondary depot of a major line; on the left the puzzle is a sorting yard for the warehouse which closes off that side. 

 

Warehouse front left; signal box and gantry back left; low-relief houses backscene; another gantry back right; wagon hoist and depot front right. The whole lot on arches, obvs.

 

The RH game is pretty straightforward - play the game, 5 wagons in the '5' road, 3 in the 'Dep' road. Two games and the Dep road is full, so a departure train must be formed.

 

The LH game is a bit trickier, involving use of the exchange loop to deal with in- and out-bound traffic, but the fundamentals are the same. Pick up 3 new wagons, shuffle them about in the yard, 5 remainers into the '5' road, the 3 chosen into the warehouse road, collect another three, shuffle them about etc.

 

Touchstones:

This! ...just turned down from 11...

 

For the wagon hoist,

...something like that, at viaduct level serving low-level vaults (electriclocorequirementwhat?!)

 

As for the warehouse, I thought something modest and pre-dating the railway, eg

...would excuse having it rail served via a tin shack bolted on to the back, inspired by the ad-hock-looking arrangements of the various depots between Leman St and Fenchurch St stations (of which there are good pics, just none I can find atm).

 

Ridiculous, about as far from my current layout as it's possible to get, but a) very definitely London, with scope for all the tank locos and stock from all the companies (and even some scenic passenger trains) and b) lots and lots of scope for playing trains!

 

Ummm soooo....yeah. London plans. You never know...

[Schooner]

So...the above are plans I would like to build at some point - I think they'd be fun (and blow me if there isn't a Cutty Sark kit for sale on that auction site for 25% of usual price) - but there's something I'd like to try first, just in case...

 

 

+

 

 

 

+

either this or this

 

Cassette off to the RHS (dressed up as a swing bridge perhaps); 8 wagons (yup, you've guessed it, it's an inglenook!)...okay maybe a couple extra...and a travelling crane... for a coaling scene on that little kickback. Not much scenery, although there's scope for plenty of detailing; nothing clever, just a chunk of tidal quayside. 6' radius just in case :)

 

 

Hoping for a quick and simple first foray into O and DCC (for sound and smoke...aiming for small, but perfectly formed...!)

 

Oh go on then!

Edited November 29, 2022 by Schooner
Spelling; dialing down the hysteria; photo added

[Annie]

Yay!  LSWR B4.  I built one of those in coarse scale 'O' gauge about 20 years ago.  Wish I still had it instead of selling it off to somebody who more than likely didn't deserve it.

 

 

Those model ships took very nice, - but a wee bit on the pricey side.  Perfect for a small wharf type 'O' gauge layout though.

 

Your Inglenook trackplan is an interesting variation and I like the fake swing bridge/cassette idea.

[Northroader]

There’s the Dapol B4 due soon in 0. You’re a keen young lad, time to switch to 7mm and forget this 4mm stuff. Cooking with gas!

[Edwardian]

3 hours ago, Northroader said:

There’s the Dapol B4 due soon in 0. You’re a keen young lad, time to switch to 7mm and forget this 4mm stuff. Cooking with gas!

 

Brother Schooner has always cooked on gas. He'll need a bigger bottle, that's all!

[Northroader]

You too, matey!

[Schooner]

On 27/11/2022 at 21:03, Annie said:

 

Oh bravo, Annie! What a pity you don't have her to trundle around the room, but I'm sure she's a treasured possession of her current owner.

 

On 28/11/2022 at 10:18, Northroader said:

There’s the Dapol B4 due soon in 0.

Indeed! Without it I wouldn't be able to contemplate an 0 layout under current life constraints, but with it I think it'll be a viable next project.

 

Having an RTR dockside shunter opens up an intimate look at a small quay in the South West. My catnip! Whilst there's plenty of GWR RTR of a '30s disposition, I'm totally sold on a date as close to 1900 as possible. The main reason for this is stock size. Having been able to do a direct comparison in 4mm...

...I wouldn't contemplate a small layout based on anything but pre-1900 stock as far as possible. The visual impact is smaller, more variable (and interesting), and the overall impression is of a small facility, rather than a cramped one. Subjective, but very clear to me looking at my layout. Going small? Go early! Of course, I'm preaching to the converted...

 

Add the RTR LSWR Terrier, some 3D printed coaches from Mannin...

and I've got a fairly attainable roster for a decent timetable on a normal, typical and in every way average bog-standard BLT...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...ish.

A Bastardi Sed [thanks, autocorrect] amalgam of Southampton's Town and Royal Piers. Extra added Inglenooks, at no extra cost. Not an immediate concern, but a logical development of the shunting table-top layout (it's designed in sections which could be stored under the same table, and then be assembled on drop-down end extensions for running sessions). Annnnyway...!

 

EDIT: Another ship model with potential; info; predecessor to which she could be backdated

Edited November 29, 2022 by Schooner
Links

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

Oh bravo, Annie! What a pity you don't have her to trundle around the room, but I'm sure she's a treasured possession of her current owner.

It's coarse scale 'O' gauge 3 rail, - none of this 2 rail nonsense.  Soldered up from galvanized flashing offcuts with most pieces cut to size with the smallest size of Gilbow snips or else cut out with a piercing saw for the more tricky pieces.  Chimney, dome and buffers were specially purchased; - wheels are repurposed Hornby M1 with counterweights sculpted from car body filler.  All sorts of bits were filed up from brass offcuts and soldered together.  Motor was a Sagami driving through a gearbox made by a local trader here in NZ.

When I took it along to a Hornby Railway Collectors meeting I got a slightly backhanded compliment when somebody asked me where I purchased the kit.  I never should have sold it, but life got a bit difficult and I needed the money.

[Schooner]

 

Merry Christmas all!

 

Wherever you are, whatever you're doing and whoever you're with, I hope you have a lovely day. Thanks for all, and the very best wishes for 2023, we've earned a good'un!

 

[Schooner]

While I'm here...

 

Barge, smack, GWR 2-plank (?)...and some scenic schoonage. Teignmouth, back in the day,

 

Ideal. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Schooner
Sorry, ketch not smack. A less pleasing cadence though, so I'll leave the correction here

[Compound2632]

34 minutes ago, Schooner said:

GWR 2-plank (?)...

 

Yes. What gauge?

[Annie]

51 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes. What gauge?

Looks like a Broad Gauge one to me.  It's a shame somebody parked a boat in front of it.

[drduncan]

I think it might be a 3 plank convertible wagon.

Duncan 

[Schooner]

Ah, that's interesting and would tie together some bits of circumstantial evidence. Whilst the original Old Quay was indeed rail-served, broad gauge, from 1851...

...this is not what is shown in the photograph.

 

Rather, the wagon stands on a quay added as part of the port development, begun c.1890, that on the extreme right of the below...

 

...taken in 1930, two years before the next round of port development began so as-per the 1890s. The warehouses can be matched exactly in other aerial photos, so I'm confident about the location.

 

The photo differs from the broad-gauge trackplan on Old Quay, but closely matches the 1892-1914 25" OS...

...so my supposition had been that it was a standard gauge wagon, the photograph taken mid-1890s, but it looks a little off for a SG 2 plank (to my very inexpert eye) so it's good to hear other options :)

Edited January 6, 2023 by Schooner
Added extra map pic; spelling; formatting etc etc etc

[drduncan]

Even if narrow gauge it still looks like a 3 plank wagon.
 

If the track on the quay was put in in 1890 then there is a strong possibility that it was laid as BG /mixed despite the proximity to gauge conversion because the SDR was not mixed gauge, so if narrow (ok, SG) on the quay it would be a stub of track connected to nothing else. if it was laid as BG/ mixed in 1890 there is a strong chance it was chaired track laid to ease conversion when it was due.

 

Of course, if the quay siding dates from 1892,

even if early in the year, SG is a probability and the fact that it was a stub until May that year may have just been a case of not worth the additional expense and trouble…I just can’t see going to the trouble of laying track that can’t be used for more than a few months. 

 

Duncan

[Schooner]

1888:

Old Quay

 

Revised 1896:

East Quay in comission.

 

Revised 1908:

West Quay in commission.

 

The 25" OS posted previously was revised in 1904, so that remains our terminus ante quem. Aktins' Great Western Docks and Marine offers no further detail, and the sketch map included shows the three quays fully developed and the broad gauge track plan on Old Quay, which seems suspect.

 

I was wrong to think that the East and West Quays, with their narrow gauge sidings, were brought into commission at the same time; perhaps East Quay was in service early enough for it to be laid in broad and re-layed (along with Old Quay)* after the disaster gauge change. So, the photo could be earlier than I thought and might well depict a BG siding.

 

Right. Very good. As you were**.

 

*If it had been laid as mixed would it have been re-laid? I can see no evidence of a third rail in the aerial photograph. I note the GWR quaysides of Sutton Harbour retained their mixed track, 'tho not depicted on 25" maps...perhaps being inlaid in setts made it particularly tiresome to re-lay?

** Although if you've time for a sit-down and a cup of tea, this remains an excellent companion

 

"Manchester enjoys a unique position as an inland port" 

 

 

Simmer down young'un!

Edited January 8, 2023 by Schooner
Probably relevant that Sutton was served by the GWR and LSWR, so needed to be dual gauge from the get-go

[Annie]

12 hours ago, Schooner said:

Probably relevant that Sutton was served by the GWR and LSWR, so needed to be dual gauge from the get-go

Sounds completely sensible to me.

 

Your first three images have gone bung and aren't working.  😭

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Annie said:

Your first three images have gone bung and aren't working.  😭

I think he's tried to enlarge them too much with the result that they've gone fuzzy.

None of the NLS 25" maps give any indication as to the gauge of the tracks.  By the 1933 one there is no track shown on the Old Quay.

Jim 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Caley Jim
map info added

[Schooner]

2 hours ago, Annie said:

Your first three images have gone bung and aren't working.

Hmmm, strange. They're uploads rather than embedded links - same as the Brimscombe grab - and are viewable to me via computer and phone.

 

None of it is wildly exciting, just little grabs of the relevant chunk of the 1" OS map series. If of interest, links to the 1888 survey, 1896 revision and 1908 revision. None show detail (sidings) on the quaysides but do chart the distinct phases of the 1890s port development.

 

3 hours ago, Annie said:

Sounds completely sensible to me.

Soon sort that out! On subject LSWR and quaysides, and cos it's the sort of thing you lot very sweetly indulge me in, Topsham:

 

Opposing view here, station portrait here.

 

A bit of a fudge to get a scenic fiddleyard into the 6'x4' - aiming for a Vinters' Yard vibe - but the quayside itself could be reasonably accurate, and not far short of scale. Set up for Inglenook ratios, as per. As a successful balancing of challenge and fun, it seems a good ruleset to allow for, if not enforce. Two 'players' could work co-op - one playing the puzzle on the quay, the other preparing the next train (the yard holds up to 5 x (5 x <80mm wagon) trains) and standing it in the loop ready to exchange...

 

...or adversarial, with one 3-wagon siding each (TT road), sharing the long (2 x 5 wagon) inner-radius siding, and fighting over the remaining 3-wagon, outer radius, siding :)

 

Views on the long sides for the operators, but look in at the short sides to reveal detail scenes of the public quay on one side, and down the streets and into the boathouse on the other. Otherwise, there could perhaps be mirrored side panels. Would be reliant on KNP-level exquisite scenic modelling to convince, but, as a plan at least, could work quite nicely.

 

1 hour ago, Caley Jim said:

By the 1933 one there is no track shown on the Old Quay.

Given the state it was in (1930 aerial photo, above/here), and the necessity of wagon TTs for access, one can quite see why!