Birmingham Bull Ring

[longchap]

Hi Tony.

 

What a difficult time you must have had, not to mention the worry of what your future could have held, but thank goodness you and your right hand man are sorting things out again.

 

It’s reassuring that RMWeb can provide so much to us all and particularly continued support and inspiration in times of need.

 

What's on your workbench right now?

 

Very best wishes,

 

Bill

[Graham T]

Tony, very sorry to hear about the problem, but also pleased to hear that you seem to be recovering.  All the best to you!

 

[Compound2632]

Very sorry to hear of this but glad to hear we've been a source of entertainment and solace during your troubles - I'd noticed you'd been keeping up with the D299 thread!

[Neal Ball]

Afternoon Tony, that all sounds awful.

 

Im glad you found solace in RMWeb.

 

Hope you are back at the workbench soon.

 

Regards, Neal.

[Edwardian]

My goodness, what a thing to happen. It must have been a terrifying experience, quite apart from anything else. Your stoicism is to be commended. Thank goodness it is on the mend. I suspect there are many reasons for wanting a functioning limb and appendage, of which modelling may not be the most important, nevertheless, I enjoy and esteem the alternative vision of Brum you have conjured for us in these pages and hope that this world will now only to continue grow and be attested in these pages.  

[ChrisN]

Fony,

What an awful thing to happen; I am glad you are coming through it.  If my layout has been an inspiration then I am grateful that it has, and I suppose I better get on and post something else soon.  I will be praying for you.

[BobM]

2 hours ago, brumtb said:

Two months ago, overnight, I lost the use of my right arm and hand.

This put a stop to any modelling as well as most everyday tasks.

Thankfully, some use is now returning and I can gently start modelling again. 

I'd just like to say thank you to all RMwebbers whose posts have kept my modelling hopes alive during a difficult couple of months.

There has been so much inspiration but in particular thanks to @Edwardian for Castle Aching, @MrWolf for Aston on Clun, @Graham T for Chuffnell Regis (which I recently discovered and enjoyed reading the whole story), @Neal Ball for Henley on Thames, @Compound2632 for everything wagons and more! and @ChrisN for Traeth Mawr, all of who's posts I continue to look forward to.

Hopefully I'll have my own progress to post again soon.

Best wishes to all.

Tony

All the very best wishes for a speedy recovery Tony.

Regards

Bob

[Schooner]

That must've been awful Tony, I'm sorry you've had to deal with that. The silver lining is that you're on the mend. Great news, more power to your elbow.

 

Top choice in layouts btw, to which yours firmly belongs. It's brought pleasure at the worst times of a suboptimal 12 months this end. Thank you, looking forward to future updates!

Edited February 20, 2023 by Schooner
Sp

[AY Mod]

4 hours ago, brumtb said:

Thankfully, some use is now returning and I can gently start modelling again. 

 

I wish you all the best with your recovery, take it steady and just look on it as additional research time!

[MrWolf]

As someone who nearly lost his right hand, (along with a few other bits and pieces) I can sympathize with you, although the problems and the process of recovery are unique to everyone. All I can say is don't give up on being able to get back to your old self and keep using it as much as possible, it's surprising what you can re-learn to do. I never thought I would be able to paint and draw again, or build railway models, but I did.

[Northroader]

It must have been a hell of a shock to have that suddenly happen, hope you have a full and speedy recovery. Looking forward to more news from old Brummagem.

[CKPR]

Best wishes for a speedy and full recovery.

 

Dougal ['CKPR']

[brumtb]

Thanks to all for your kind words and encouragement, I'm quite overwhelmed!

I've certainly had time for research and planning and a few online purchases.

I did succumb to temptation and purchase a Kerr Stuart Victory from Planet Industrials and now have to fabricate a reason for one to be running in the Birmingham area post great war. That has resulted in some interesting research down side alleys! I hope to post this shortly.

More long term is the construction of GWR 4-4-0ST number 13.  I've been collecting as much information and as many photos as I can and am beginning to formulate a plan.

So, there has been a positive side to my enforced lay off.  

There has also been plenty of time to think and realise just how fragile we all are and to try and make the most of every day.

So, again, many thanks

Tony

 

[brumtb]

Clun Castle and Earl of Mount Edgecumbe just south of Leamington Spa en route to Didcot today

https://www.facebook.com/851105382/videos/526208529637740/

Tony

[brumtb]

 

As I mentioned recently, during my enforced layoff from modelling,  after strong resistance, I finally succumbed to the temptation of a Planet Industrials Kerr Stuart “Victory” loco just before the price went up on January 1st.  I’d had a soft spot for these locos long before Planet Industrials announced their model especially as three of the locos became part of the Great Western fleet at Grouping.  But my modelling is set in the late Pre-Grouping years and although very impressed with the model I just couldn’t see how to justify it in the pre-grouping Birmingham area.  However now that I've got one, I’ve got to provide a plausible back story.

My layout is already a complete work of fiction, but I do like to set it within a historical context where possible.

 

So, here goes:

 

The 10 Kerr Stuart locos were built in 1917 for the government Inland Waterways and Docks Department and subsequently transferred to the Royal Engineers Railway Operating Division before being put up for sale in 1919.

One of the locos, ROD number 605, was purchased by the Brecon and Merthyr Railway, which, although the locos were only 2 years old, insisted that number 605 received a full overhaul by the manufacturers, Kerr Stuart, in Stoke on Trent.

After the overhaul the B&M plan was to move 605 to Birmingham where it would collect several second-hand Midland Railway 6-wheel coaches, the purchase of which was being simultaneously negotiated.  So, 605 made its way to Birmingham via the NSR to Colwich and on to join the Midland line to Birmingham at Walsall.  It was here that the plan went awry.  Either by accident or design the coach purchase negotiations stalled and 605 was stranded in Birmingham.  The MR kindly offered 605 shelter at Saltley shed until the coaches were ready.  However, given the maintenance backlog following World War 1 the shed foreman at Saltley couldn’t resist putting a newly overhauled 605 to good use on local goods trip working, often being found working between Camp Hill and Church Road Sidings via Digbeth, as below:

 

 

It was 1920 before the coach purchase was completed and 605 (to become B&M number 35) and the coaches made their way to South Wales over Midland rails via Worcester and Hereford. 

 

I acknowledge that a lot of this is fiction but:

 

The ROD did put the locos up for sale in 1919.

The Brecon and Merthyr did buy number 605 and it arrived on the railway in 1920.

The Brecon and Merthyr did buy 14 Midland coaches in 1920.*

See MR 6-wheel 5 Compt Third, later Brecon and Merthyr 111 (rhrp.org.uk)

 

I don’t know of any Victory Class locos being overhauled by the manufacturers but Don Townsley’s article in Railway Modeller September 1966 states “Kerr Stuart’s records are somewhat vague and full of anomalies” so who knows!

 

*I’ve subsequently discovered from A Register of GWR Absorbed Coaching Stock 1922/3 that the 14 Midland coaches weren’t supplied directly by the MR but were initially sold to J F Wake of Darlington ( MR C&W Committee Minute No 6029, dated 18/12/1919) but were sold to the Brecon & Merthyr by E E Cornforth of Trentham, Staffs in !920.  This makes me wonder whether these second hand rolling stock dealers actually took possession of the coaches but merely acted  as (in modern terms) commodity traders who bought and sold the right to acquire the stock.  If not, would the coaches really have been hauled from the MR to Darlington (J F Wake had a large engineering operation, dealing, rebuilding and scrapping a wide range of railway and associated equipment on around 60 acres at the Geneva Engineering Works, Darlington) and then back to Trentham (Cornforth seems to have been a much smaller concern)  before being passed over to the B&M?

Thanks for reading

Tony

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, brumtb said:

*I’ve subsequently discovered from A Register of GWR Absorbed Coaching Stock 1922/3 that the 14 Midland coaches weren’t supplied directly by the MR but were initially sold to J F Wake of Darlington ( MR C&W Committee Minute No 6029, dated 18/12/1919) but were sold to the Brecon & Merthyr by E E Cornforth of Trentham, Staffs in !920.  This makes me wonder whether these second hand rolling stock dealers actually took possession of the coaches but merely acted  as (in modern terms) commodity traders who bought and sold the right to acquire the stock.  If not, would the coaches really have been hauled from the MR to Darlington (J F Wake had a large engineering operation, dealing, rebuilding and scrapping a wide range of railway and associated equipment on around 60 acres at the Geneva Engineering Works, Darlington) and then back to Trentham (Cornforth seems to have been a much smaller concern)  before being passed over to the B&M?

 

Midland Railway Carriage & Wagon Committee minute 6029 of 18 December 1919:

 

Sale of Old Carriages

                             Resolved that the following old passenger vehicles, which are unfit for further traffic, be sold to Mr J.F. Wake, of Darlington, at the undermentioned prices:-

               8 Third Class Carriages at £200 each

               3 Composite Carriages at £220 each

               3 Passenger Guards’ Brake Vans at £160 each

Free on rail at Derby, plust £25 per vehicle for altering short buffers to long buffers on certain vehicles.

 

Some of the third class carriages presumably came from short-buffer sets. built 1883/4 but with additional vehicles later in the 80s. These sets had generally been replaced by bogie stock between 1900 and 1914, progressively by district.

 

J.F. Wake was the principal purchaser of redundant Midland rolling stock; he has a rolling contract to purchase 400 old 8-ton wagons (i.e. D299) a year from 1905 to 1916, with the contract frequently being renewed 3 months ahead of time; in all he had just over 6,000 8-ton wagons. From 1905 to 1912 this was in partnership with R.Y. Pickering, the well-known Glasgow wagon firm; from 1913 with Cornforth. Wake also purchased large quantities of old wheelsets and redundant C&W equipment such as old wheel lathes. He also bought carriages from time to time; at first he seems to have chiefly been interested in old first class carriages - I've no idea what his market for these was!

 

This convoluted transaction is a bit of a mystery. The Midland had sold old duplicate-list stock direct to the M&SWJR and SAMJR before the Great War, and also to industrial users. The M&SWJR and SAMJR where railways within the Midland sphere of influence, but so was the B&MR. The only other instance where carriages were sold via a third party and the final customer is known are the six sold to the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire in 1911, which went via R. White & Sons, Widnes. 

 

"Free on rail at Derby" is "buyer collects"! - or at least, pays for onward transport. So I'm inclined to think the carriages would have gone direct from Derby to the B&MR via Worcester, Hereford, Hay, and Brecon. 

 

I do like your story!

Edited March 12, 2023 by Compound2632

[brumtb]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Midland Railway Carriage & Wagon Committee minute 6029 of 18 December 1919:

 

Sale of Old Carriages

                             Resolved that the following old passenger vehicles, which are unfit for further traffic, be sold to Mr J.F. Wake, of Darlington, at the undermentioned prices:-

               8 Third Class Carriages at £200 each

               3 Composite Carriages at £220 each

               3 Passenger Guards’ Brake Vans at £160 each

Free on rail at Derby, plust £25 per vehicle for altering short buffers to long buffers on certain vehicles.

 

Some of the third class carriages presumably came from short-buffer sets. built 1883/4 but with additional vehicles later in the 80s. These sets had generally been replaced by bogie stock between 1900 and 1914, progressively by district.

 

J.F. Wake was the principal purchaser of redundant Midland rolling stock; he has a rolling contract to purchase 400 old 8-ton wagons (i.e. D299) a year from 1905 to 1916, with the contract frequently being renewed 3 months ahead of time; in all he had just over 6,000 8-ton wagons. From 1905 to 1912 this was in partnership with R.Y. Pickering, the well-known Glasgow wagon firm; from 1913 with Cornforth. Wake also purchased large quantities of old wheelsets and redundant C&W equipment such as old wheel lathes. He also bought carriages from time to time; at first he seems to have chiefly been interested in old first class carriages - I've no idea what his market for these was!

 

This convoluted transaction is a bit of a mystery. The Midland had sold old duplicate-list stock direct to the M&SWJR and SAMJR before the Great War, and also to industrial users. The M&SWJR and SAMJR where railways within the Midland sphere of influence, but so was the B&MR. The only other instance where carriages were sold via a third party and the final customer is known are the six sold to the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire in 1911, which went via R. White & Sons, Widnes. 

 

"Free on rail at Derby" is "buyer collects"! - or at least, pays for onward transport. So I'm inclined to think the carriages would have gone direct from Derby to the B&MR via Worcester, Hereford, Hay, and Brecon. 

 

I do like your story!

Thank you Stephen, I rather thought you'd have more information and it certainly adds a lot to what I'd discovered.

I do like "Free on rail",  as you suggest it seems more likely that the coaches went direct from the Midland to to the Brecon and Merthyr and in my version the B&MR might well have paid for delivery to Birmingham for collection by No 605. 

So, thanks very much.

Tony

[Neal Ball]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Midland Railway Carriage & Wagon Committee minute 6029 of 18 December 1919:

 

Sale of Old Carriages

                             Resolved that the following old passenger vehicles, which are unfit for further traffic, be sold to Mr J.F. Wake, of Darlington, at the undermentioned prices:-

               8 Third Class Carriages at £200 each

               3 Composite Carriages at £220 each

               3 Passenger Guards’ Brake Vans at £160 each

Free on rail at Derby, plust £25 per vehicle for altering short buffers to long buffers on certain vehicles.

 

Some of the third class carriages presumably came from short-buffer sets. built 1883/4 but with additional vehicles later in the 80s. These sets had generally been replaced by bogie stock between 1900 and 1914, progressively by district.

 

J.F. Wake was the principal purchaser of redundant Midland rolling stock; he has a rolling contract to purchase 400 old 8-ton wagons (i.e. D299) a year from 1905 to 1916, with the contract frequently being renewed 3 months ahead of time; in all he had just over 6,000 8-ton wagons. From 1905 to 1912 this was in partnership with R.Y. Pickering, the well-known Glasgow wagon firm; from 1913 with Cornforth. Wake also purchased large quantities of old wheelsets and redundant C&W equipment such as old wheel lathes. He also bought carriages from time to time; at first he seems to have chiefly been interested in old first class carriages - I've no idea what his market for these was!

 

This convoluted transaction is a bit of a mystery. The Midland had sold old duplicate-list stock direct to the M&SWJR and SAMJR before the Great War, and also to industrial users. The M&SWJR and SAMJR where railways within the Midland sphere of influence, but so was the B&MR. The only other instance where carriages were sold via a third party and the final customer is known are the six sold to the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire in 1911, which went via R. White & Sons, Widnes. 

 

"Free on rail at Derby" is "buyer collects"! - or at least, pays for onward transport. So I'm inclined to think the carriages would have gone direct from Derby to the B&MR via Worcester, Hereford, Hay, and Brecon. 

 

I do like your story!

So what you are saying is that JF Wake are like a clearing house… taking in redundant stock and selling it on.

 

Fascinating

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

So what you are saying is that JF Wake are like a clearing house… taking in redundant stock and selling it on.

 

More of a dealer or possibly antiques merchant! His firm was equipped to maintain wagons, thanks to the redundant workshop equipment bought from the Midland. What is unclear to me is who the majority of his customers were - I'm pretty sure that the Midland 8-ton wagons he was buying went for use as internal user only wagons and that he wasn't hiring them out as PO wagons. When the Midland made sales direct to the end user, there was usually the statement "for use on their private lines". A few can be traced going to Col. Stephens lines including the PD&SWJ and WC&P. 

 

Also, I don't know if he had other lines of supply from other main-line companies.

[MrWolf]

I'd taken an interest in the brokers of old Midland Railway carriages and similar because I wanted to build something close to the MR brake 3rds which went to the M& SWJR, on to the GWR and presumably for firewood before 1948?

[brumtb]

35 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

I'd taken an interest in the brokers of old Midland Railway carriages and similar because I wanted to build something close to the MR brake 3rds which went to the M& SWJR, on to the GWR and presumably for firewood before 1948?

I can PM you scans of the M&SWJR pages in the Register of GWR Absorbed Coaching Stock if it would be of any interest.

Includes numbers and renumberings, dates of acquisition and disposal by GWR.

Tony

[MrWolf]

Thanks, that would be very helpful, I've no idea on the numbers used.

 

Rob Wolf 

[Compound2632]

Here's the data from the Midland side:

 

 

There's full information on these in M. Barnsley, M&SWJR Railway Vol. 3 (Wild Swan, 1995). The 16 composite brakes were 40 ft carriages, the last of which were withdrawn in October 1930. The 16 thirds and 4 third brakes were 43 ft carriages, Midland diagrams D490 and D502 respectively, with last withdrawals in November and October 1930, respectively. All are listed as built in 1882 except one of the thirds, a youngster from 1884. The 43 ft carriages are available (in principle) as etched kits or could be cut and shut from the Slaters 6 wheelers; the 40 ft carriages are more of a challenge - but one I'm working myself up to tackling, as I want one for my c. 1902 Brownhills Branch train.

 

Barnsley gives full M&SWJR and GWR numbering details, which I could send if you are interested, @MrWolf. The Midland numbers are not known.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Compound2632

[brumtb]

13 hours ago, MrWolf said:

Thanks, that would be very helpful, I've no idea on the numbers used.

 

Rob Wolf 

OK, will do later today.

Tony

[brumtb]

7 hours ago, brumtb said:

OK, will do later today.

Tony

Rob @MrWolf scans now sent.

Tony