Birmingham Bull Ring

[Compound2632]

I rather like the idea of North Staffordshire trains penetrating South Staffordshire and even North Warwickshire, even if only in your fictional version of events. The Stoke-Walsall trains running via Colwich, Rugeley, and Cannock are particularly thought-provoking for my fictional north Birmingham area Midland line with LNWR and GWR running powers, which increasingly draws inspiration from the Walsall area...

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 19/11/2021 at 17:01, brumtb said:

Here are links to some of the Warwickshire Railways photos:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_pg446.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_pg449.htm

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_str1856.htm

which have piqued my interest.  I now begin to wonder if the North Staffordshire Bay is however, misdescribed.

My family's connections with New Street go back to the 1880s and I never heard any mention of a North Staffordshire Bay. The bays at the West end were known as the Stour Valley bays, those at the East end were sometimes called the South Staffordshire bays as they were used for trains going to Walsall and Rugeley via Aston.

I agree that the first of the pictures is the Down side of platform 2, which later became platform 5.

The second picture is taken from the Up side of Platform 2, the loco standing on one of the sidings between platform 1 and platform 2.

Both of those pictures are at the No.1 box end. 

The third picture is indeed the old platform 3, later platform 6  and is taken from the LNWR parcels office.

Regarding the Stoke train, one still ran as far as Silverdale at about 5pm until the early 1960s. There was also a later DMU from Manchester via Stoke which returned to Stoke around 6.30pm.

Edited November 21, 2021 by TheSignalEngineer

[brumtb]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I rather like the idea of North Staffordshire trains penetrating South Staffordshire and even North Warwickshire, even if only in your fictional version of events. The Stoke-Walsall trains running via Colwich, Rugeley, and Cannock are particularly thought-provoking for my fictional north Birmingham area Midland line with LNWR and GWR running powers, which increasingly draws inspiration from the Walsall area...

That's what attracted me, I'm quite content to follow a fictional path, provided there is some (even tenuous) link to reality and I still cling to the reported and occasionally photographed fact that NSR locos and stock were seen in Birmingham.  I'm also now intrigued by the photo of a K class at Tamworth on a New Street to Derby service on April 19th 1923, technically still pre grouping for the NSR as the company didn't join the LMS until July 1923.   https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrthl128.htm 

[brumtb]

15 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

My family's connections with New Street go back to the 1880s and I never heard any mention of a North Staffordshire Bay. The bays at the West end were known as the Stour Valley bays, those at the East end were sometimes called the South Staffordshire bays as they were used for trains going to Walsall and Rugeley via Aston.

I agree that the first of the pictures is the Down side of platform 2, which later became platform 5.

The second picture is taken from the Up side of Platform 2, the loco standing on one of the sidings between platform 1 and platform 2.

Both of those pictures are at the No.1 box end. 

The third picture is indeed the old platform 3, later platform 6  and is taken from the LNWR parcels office.

Regarding the Stoke train, one still ran as far as Silverdale at about 5pm until the early 1960s. There was also a later DMU from Manchester via Stoke which returned to Stoke around 6.30pm.

Thanks very much it all adds to the picture.  Yes, the North Staffordshire Bay does seem to be incorrect.

Tony 

[Compound2632]

If can supply improvements (with evidence) to captions on the Warwickshire Railways website, in my experience Mike Musson will be pleased to hear from you; there is a contact address on the About Us page or via the Guestbook.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I have sent an email to Mike Musson questioning the captions on some of the photos at New Street and an apparent discrepancy in dating some of the plans.

[brumtb]

Midland Railway 1377 Class Number 1741 manoeuvres an MR diagram 833 Motor Car Van in the yard at Digbeth.

I believe the van is from a NuCast kit, found on Ebay in a rather poor condition, which I have attempted to tidy up.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by brumtb
Replaced photos

[brumtb]

 

This corner of the layout (one of the first areas to be attempted) has been giving me much cause for thought recently.

The idea was to include a transition from the rural outskirts to the more developed urban areas.  Birmingham, Digbeth and Deritend have a history going back to the 7th century so there is some scope.  The Airfix church is probably seen as a classic modelling cliché but in one form or another it has been a part of my modelling life since its introduction in 1959 and a connection which was strengthened in the mid-80s when I discovered the real Old Saint Boniface Church and found solace there during a difficult time.  The church has been dated to the 12th century, a time when Birmingham also gained its market status.

I still feel there is more to do to take the scene back to the first decade or so of the 20th century, but another problem has arisen.  So keen was I to complete the original scene that I foolishly never allowed for it’s removal.  The tracks which run underneath the scene are inaccessible and effective cleaning is virtually impossible.  This recently came to a head when I lost my new Rails Improved Precedent!  It went in and didn’t come out.  I eventually recovered it by cutting a hole in a grassy bank but the loco came out covered in cobwebs! The scene is mounted on a piece of MDF so if I can make it removable without too much collateral damage it will still be heavy and unwieldy.  Other options which come to mind are to rebuild the scene on a much lighter base so removal is easier or permanently remove it and build a replacement scene where the tracks are exposed in, say, a brick lined cutting.  I’m in a quandary, I’m attached to what I’ve already built but can see the practical benefits of option 2 particularly as I get less mobile and access gets more difficult and spiders have to be discouraged!.

The scene to be removed comprises the church, vicarage beyond and the shop and houses at right angles.

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by brumtb
Replaced photos

[ChrisN]

46 minutes ago, brumtb said:

This corner of the layout (one of the first areas to be attempted) has been giving me much cause for thought recently.

The idea was to include a transition from the rural outskirts to the more developed urban areas.  Birmingham, Digbeth and Deritend have a history going back to the 7th century so there is some scope.  The Airfix church is probably seen as a classic modelling cliché but in one form or another it has been a part of my modelling life since its introduction in 1959 and a connection which was strengthened in the mid-80s when I discovered the real Old Saint Boniface Church and found solace there during a difficult time.  The church has been dated to the 12th century, a time when Birmingham also gained its market status.

I still feel there is more to do to take the scene back to the first decade or so of the 20th century, but another problem has arisen.  So keen was I to complete the original scene that I foolishly never allowed for it’s removal.  The tracks which run underneath the scene are inaccessible and effective cleaning is virtually impossible.  This recently came to a head when I lost my new Rails Improved Precedent!  It went in and didn’t come out.  I eventually recovered it by cutting a hole in a grassy bank but the loco came out covered in cobwebs! The scene is mounted on a piece of MDF so if I can make it removable without too much collateral damage it will still be heavy and unwieldy.  Other options which come to mind are to rebuild the scene on a much lighter base so removal is easier or permanently remove it and build a replacement scene where the tracks are exposed in, say, a brick lined cutting.  I’m in a quandary, I’m attached to what I’ve already built but can see the practical benefits of option 2 particularly as I get less mobile and access gets more difficult and spiders have to be discouraged!.

The scene to be removed comprises the church, vicarage beyond and the shop and houses at right angles.

 

Tony,

What a lovely part of the layout, it would be a shame to lose it.  If you built it on a lighter base would any of it be reusable?  

 

If you made a cutting lined in brick, how accesable would it actually be?  Not knowing where your lines run, if they are at the back then it might be nearly as difficult as now.  If you made a lighter base then probably you should make it in several parts to make it not only light but in easy manageable bits.

[brumtb]

Hi Chris

That is the conclusion I'm coming to. A lighter base and in separate sections seems the way to go.  Many thanks.

Tony 

[brumtb]

Having seen the artwork for the LNWR Private Carriage Trucks in the HMRS LNWR Livery book and then the self adhesive overlays that appear from time to time on Ebay I thought I would see what I could do to produce one.

This is the result, not perfect but I’m quite pleased.  The body is an old Hornby sausage van sanded flat and shortened on a suitable 4 wheeled chassis from the spares box with some additional detailing.

 

 

Tony

Edited December 15, 2022 by brumtb
Replaced photos

[brumtb]

It’s good to be getting back on track again, there are several projects on the go, Great Western 517 class, Deritend station, Deritend Goods Warehouse and Offices (complicated further by succumbing to temptation in the recent acquisition of a Peco/Kato Ffestiniog Small England).  More to follow but for now here is LNWR Improved Precedent number 1673 Lucknow waiting in the Deritend exchange sidings to return to its home system.  The loco now has a tender with coal rails from Hardwicke to bring it into the later pre-grouping period together with coal and a crew.  When 247 Developments release their promised name and number plates Lucknow will change its identity. At the moment I’m thinking of Puck which was photographed in Birmingham in 1920.

[brumtb]

My Great Western 517 class begins to take shape.  It is based on a Stafford Road 3D printed body with brass extras, safety valve housing and whistle to be added later.

It is designed to fit on a Hornby 0-4-2 chassis which I'm currently dismantling prior to sawing off its 14xx sandboxes.

517 identities are a real minefield, (to me anyway!) I couldn't find a Birmingham area loco in the style shown at the post WW1 period so settled on 832 as being of a similar style and plates are on order from Modelmaster (since February!) but they don't seem to be answering their phone so hope the plates turn up soon.

Once the chassis is prepared and a decoder fitted I'll start painting.

  

[ChrisN]

1 hour ago, brumtb said:

My Great Western 517 class begins to take shape.  It is based on a Stafford Road 3D printed body with brass extras, safety valve housing and whistle to be added later.

It is designed to fit on a Hornby 0-4-2 chassis which I'm currently dismantling prior to sawing off its 14xx sandboxes.

517 identities are a real minefield, (to me anyway!) I couldn't find a Birmingham area loco in the style shown at the post WW1 period so settled on 832 as being of a similar style and plates are on order from Modelmaster (since February!) but they don't seem to be answering their phone so hope the plates turn up soon.

Once the chassis is prepared and a decoder fitted I'll start painting.

  

 

Tony,

I have resisted the Stafford Road model of a 517 up until now, and the last time I looked they were redoing them and making them more expensive.  My real issue is that, apart from the fact that why should I actually need one, is that as is quite obvious from your picture that what should be round is not.  I had that issue on the 850 I had, but it was not a problem as it was the saddle tank and Halfords Primer/filer worked wonders.  It would appear to be more difficult with this one, so I will be interested on how you get on.

 

Do you have the Great Western Railway Journal 74 and 75 which has all about 517s including lots of pictures and shed allocations?

[brumtb]

12 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Tony,

I have resisted the Stafford Road model of a 517 up until now, and the last time I looked they were redoing them and making them more expensive.  My real issue is that, apart from the fact that why should I actually need one, is that as is quite obvious from your picture that what should be round is not.  I had that issue on the 850 I had, but it was not a problem as it was the saddle tank and Halfords Primer/filer worked wonders.  It would appear to be more difficult with this one, so I will be interested on how you get on.

 

Do you have the Great Western Railway Journal 74 and 75 which has all about 517s including lots of pictures and shed allocations?

Hi Chris

Yes there are the usual 3D issues which I'm trying to overcome but I think the photo exaggerates the problem a bit. Anyway, I was aware in advance and happy to make the best I can of it.

I did replace the chimney with a brass one, though. I'll post more pictures as I go on.

I do have the GWRJ issues thanks, as well as the RCTS Part 6, just confused by the permutations and changes over the loco's long lives!

Tony

[Mikkel]

Hi Tony, I had missed this one. Printing issues aside, it's good to see a 517 with roundtopped firebox. So much more elegant!

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Mikkel

[brumtb]

6 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Hi Tony, I had missed this one. Printing issues aside, it's good to see a 517 with roundtopped firebox. So much more elegant!

 

Hi Mikkel, yes, I really wanted the roundtopped firebox, although a few lasted quite late it really speaks of an earlier era.  I'm still working on it and hope to post a progress report quite soon now.

Tony

[brumtb]

On 14/01/2022 at 22:19, brumtb said:

 

This corner of the layout (one of the first areas to be attempted) has been giving me much cause for thought recently.

The idea was to include a transition from the rural outskirts to the more developed urban areas.  Birmingham, Digbeth and Deritend have a history going back to the 7th century so there is some scope.  The Airfix church is probably seen as a classic modelling cliché but in one form or another it has been a part of my modelling life since its introduction in 1959 and a connection which was strengthened in the mid-80s when I discovered the real Old Saint Boniface Church and found solace there during a difficult time.  The church has been dated to the 12th century, a time when Birmingham also gained its market status.

I still feel there is more to do to take the scene back to the first decade or so of the 20th century, but another problem has arisen.  So keen was I to complete the original scene that I foolishly never allowed for it’s removal.  The tracks which run underneath the scene are inaccessible and effective cleaning is virtually impossible.  This recently came to a head when I lost my new Rails Improved Precedent!  It went in and didn’t come out.  I eventually recovered it by cutting a hole in a grassy bank but the loco came out covered in cobwebs! The scene is mounted on a piece of MDF so if I can make it removable without too much collateral damage it will still be heavy and unwieldy.  Other options which come to mind are to rebuild the scene on a much lighter base so removal is easier or permanently remove it and build a replacement scene where the tracks are exposed in, say, a brick lined cutting.  I’m in a quandary, I’m attached to what I’ve already built but can see the practical benefits of option 2 particularly as I get less mobile and access gets more difficult and spiders have to be discouraged!.

The scene to be removed comprises the church, vicarage beyond and the shop and houses at right angles.

 

As mentioned earlier, the scene has now been removed and replaced by lightweight removeable sections. It is now much easier to access the trackwork below to keep it clean and free of spiders!  I've also taken the opportunity to alter the layout of the buildings and replace the vicarage, which I wasn't happy with and add in some more.  

 

There is more to do but its coming together nicely and trains now run smoothly underneath.

Tony

[ChrisN]

12 minutes ago, brumtb said:

As mentioned earlier, the scene has now been removed and replaced by lightweight removeable sections. It is now much easier to access the trackwork below to keep it clean and free of spiders!  I've also taken the opportunity to alter the layout of the buildings and replace the vicarage, which I wasn't happy with and add in some more.  

 

There is more to do but its coming together nicely and trains now run smoothly underneath.

Tony

 

Tony,

They do look good, but you are not getting away that easily.  🙂  Are the buildings kits, scratchbuilt or what?  You have probably said earlier but have missed it.  (Yes, the church is Airfix, and I know most have just been put back, but not all.)

[brumtb]

Hi Chris

The terraced houses are ready to plant from Skaledale and Scenecraft ranges as they are just so Birmingham to me, reminding me of the rows of late Victorian/Edwardian houses  where I grew up in the early 50s.  They are due some repainting though and generally toning down.  The shop is renamed Woodrow Stores reflecting the general store owned by my grandfather in the years up to WW2.

The blacksmith's building on the right is from the same source but again needs toning down.  I'm also intending to open up the doorways to make it appear more of a working building and to put in some interior detail.

The small engineering works of Banks & Davis (who actually operated in Deritend but in a much bigger way) in the foreground is a mixture of oddments from my bits store.  The cobblestones that can be seen are from Redutex sheets which to my mind are very realistic but again need toning down.

The church, as you know is Airfix but the churchyard is modelled on the one here in Harbury which I can see from my bedroom window.

As with everything this is a continuing work in progress.

Thanks for your interest.

Tony

[brumtb]

At the Deritend end of the layout I’m just trying the Great Western goods warehouse and station entrance building for size.

This was inspired by a photo I saw many years ago of a “northern” industrial town station and it has always stuck in my mind. I can’t remember where it was or which railway but I like the idea of looking through archways.  The passenger station proper will be beyond the main arch where it will have steps down to track level whilst the left hand arch is over the entrance slope down to the goods facilities.

The building started as a cardboard mock up to test the dimensions and rather took off from there, the original was adjusted until it seemed to fit and then formed the basis of the current structure.

Now a bit more tweaking before bedding it in and making good the walls and fences around it.  The surrounding buildings are in the main just to give an idea of the overall effect at the moment.

[ChrisN]

4 minutes ago, brumtb said:

At the Deritend end of the layout I’m just trying the Great Western goods warehouse and station entrance building for size.

This was inspired by a photo I saw many years ago of a “northern” industrial town station and it has always stuck in my mind. I can’t remember where it was or which railway but I like the idea of looking through archways.  The passenger station proper will be beyond the main arch where it will have steps down to track level whilst the left hand arch is over the entrance slope down to the goods facilities.

The building started as a cardboard mock up to test the dimensions and rather took off from there, the original was adjusted until it seemed to fit and then formed the basis of the current structure.

Now a bit more tweaking before bedding it in and making good the walls and fences around it.  The surrounding buildings are in the main just to give an idea of the overall effect at the moment.

 

Tony,

What a lovely building, and quite original.  I do like it.  I assume it is covered in brick paper.  Where did the windows come from?

 

I am sitting here wanting to type more as I am really taken with this structure.  This for one will not be appearing in the 'Clichés on Layouts' thread. 

[brumtb]

22 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Tony,

What a lovely building, and quite original.  I do like it.  I assume it is covered in brick paper.  Where did the windows come from?

 

I am sitting here wanting to type more as I am really taken with this structure.  This for one will not be appearing in the 'Clichés on Layouts' thread. 

Thanks Chris, for your kind comments I have enjoyed making this building and I'm looking forward to completing the whole station approach area.  

Yes it is brickpaper, Dirty Red Brick by https://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/gee-designs and the windows were laser cut arch top windows from https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/modelrailwayscenery.

Although this is definitely a one off, I like to think that some of my cliches won't appear quite so obvious when I've "helped" them to fit more comfortably into the overall scene! 

Thanks

Tony

[Mikkel]

I agree with Chris, that's a very attractive structure. I like how it spans two levels and brings them together. The look through the archways works well too, I think. 

[brumtb]

13 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I agree with Chris, that's a very attractive structure. I like how it spans two levels and brings them together. The look through the archways works well too, I think. 

Thanks Mikkel, your kind comments are much appreciated.

Tony