Panic buying

[laurenceb]

Working from home- as someone here put it- living at work.

[ejstubbs]

49 minutes ago, TheQ said:

Norwich Union  / Aviva has announce they will expect workers to spend 60% of time WFH, that's 28,000 people. They have already given up a big building in Norwich..

 

Which is one very strong motivator for them to do it: reducing their property overheads.

 

A major UK bank which shall remain unnamed had just such a policy for its IT department when I was working there around six years ago, long before SARS-Cov-2 was foisted on the world.  Some sections bought in to it big time, including setting up rotas and desk booking systems so that everyone would know who was WFH on which days, and where you could get a desk if you needed to be in the office.  However, a number of old school, decades-behind-the-times managers refused to comply and insisted on all their staff being in the office every day.  As may be imagined, this caused a degree of discontent and friction - from both sides of the 'divide'.  I didn't stay there long enough to find out whether or how it was eventually resolved, but shortly after after I moved on the bank in question did move all the IT staff who were based in its sizable city-centre offices out to other offices on the periphery of town.

[Chris M]

I’ve just done some panic buying! I’ve bought train tickets to Milton Keynes so I can go to GETS regardless of the fuel situation.

 

The tickets were very reasonable at £24.10 return from the West Midlands and the journey time will be less than by car. I hope the free shuttle bus will be running.

[melmerby]

46 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

It comes from before last Wednesday Phil.

There was an industry Taskforce meeting with the government on the 16th of September.

Among those attending were Tesco, McDonald’s, Unilever, BP, Amazon, Kingfisher and Eddie Stobart, the haulage company. As well as the RHA and another trade body, Logistics UK.

 

"Hanna Hofer, the head of BP’s retail business, told the meeting that the company had “two thirds of normal forecourt stock levels”.

She also said, according to others present in the meeting, that only five out of BP’s 1,200 forecourts were closed on any given day.

 

"Someone" who was present is said to have then "leaked" news of exaggerated impending shortages to ITV news.

There are accusations about who that was and his motives.

 

 

.

And a certain political party claims it's all caused by Brexit and it wouldn't have happened if we had got a proper deal.......

 

As to importing EU drivers to fill the shortfall (as also suggested by the very same political party); a Continental trucker's representative said (in as may words) "It won't work, there is already a shortage of HGV drivers in the EU. Why would any want to give up steady employment for a short term contract in the UK?"

[alastairq]

Lorry driver shortages?

 

What is often ignored in these arguments re-shortages concerns the figures. 

 

For LGV drivers, the 'short' figures also include those operators who need drivers who are prepared to work for peanuts...and who, in normal circumstances, struggle to find or retain drivers.

Then there are the 'agencies'.....?

How many drivers are they 'really' short?

Especially when they struggle to fill slots, simply because drivers on their books are perhaps sick, or on holiday, or even, just don't fancy doing that particular job?

 

Do these [currently unfilled] vacancies get put down to a 'shortage' of drivers?

 

At any given point in time, how many unfilled driver places would in fact be best suited to 'part-time' drivers, perhaps doing one or two days' work a week?

 

WAge levels in many workplaces are set, in my view, by the 'lowest common denominator.'

As an example form my own work experience....as a bus driver many decades ago, the outfit I worked for [EYMS] worked NAtional Express runs.

There was a huge disconnect in the amounts drivers doing National Express were paid...This affected the companies ability to operate the National Express contracts.

How can companies paying a decent wage to their drivers, compete with the two -bus back yard firms who also do National Express, but employ part t-ime drivers?

Many of these were [to quote a not exaggerated example] the plumbers who were doing a National Express run on a weekend, simply for the pocket money. They were almost doing it for fun! Simply because they had a CAt D licence.

 

Also, can someone tell me where this Class 1 HGV licence thing is?

I held a Cat C+E.... a category which allowed me to drive any LGV over 7.5 tonnes, with a trailer.  

In my 20 years of being involved with Cat C [+E too] training and operation, I had never come across any bit of paper or plastic which mentions Class 1 licences. [Not since the mid 1970's anyway, when the HGV books went out]...

I can [or would if I reclaimed my vocational categories] drive & manoeuver any artic, or drawbar trailer.....and make a fair fist of the most difficult trailer to manoeuver, the drawbar with a turntable.

 

Artics are [in my view] vrey easy to manoeuver.

 

Those drivers who drive the little Milk Marque tanks [two axle  vehicles] with their little turntable drawbar tank [2 axle, usually]  trailers are the doggz beees when it comes to driver skills.....The can put those wee trailers anywhere. Get an artic driver to do likewise, and they'll be tied in knots quick-time!

[bourneagain]

One thing that I`ve learnt today from this shortage of fuel, is just how many diesel vehicles there are on the roads. I live just down the road from a Sainsbury`s supermarket and petrol station. Our other nearest petrol station is at Tesco`s and is currently closed due to lack of fuel, so all the vehicles piled down to Sainsbury`s this morning. As you can imagine, by 8am huge queues had built up all around the car park and continuing at least ½ mile down the main road. Just after midday the diesel ran out, leaving just the petrol being available, consequently the queuing traffic reduced almost instantly down to about 20 or so cars waiting to fill up. So I took the opportunity to drive over and fill up, which now means; I can not only go to The Great Electric Train show this weekend but also down to Aldershot next weekend for the Farnham Show. I recently replaced my vehicle from an old diesel to a petrol one, mainly due to avoid London`s extended ULEZ charges that comes into force later this month. Something to bear in mind if you are proposing to drive to the Ally Pally show next year, that is, if it takes place.   

[Ben B]

It's caught me by surprise. I'm stuck isolating at home for my mandatory ten days after catching Covid... How is someone meant to prepare for a "Mad Max" esque scenario, roaming and scavenging for fuel and food, whilst obeying NHS isolation rules? Honestly, I thought I'd have another year or so to acquire a beat-up leather jacket and an impractical V8-engined police car before society imploded...

[Andy Hayter]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

What puzzles me, especially in relation to the fuel tanker driver “issue” is why was there no gradual problem with lack of drivers?  Did 200/500/1000 drivers suddenly decide to retire last week?

 

The problem with the fuel shortage is not drivers as I see but the media frenzy causing a supply chain deficiency at extremely short notice.

 

The shortage of food and general heavy deliveries has been building for months if not longer, but the fuel….not so sure.

 

 

But this problem has been growing slowly.  The oil producers were in discussion with the government over 3 moths ago trying to get a visa system set up.  However the intransigence of the "we don't need foreign workers from the EU" brigade made sure nothing happened. Meetings were continuing up to 2 weeks ago and it suggested that someone on the government side may have leaked details to the press.

 

Then the tip of the iceberg surfaced with a handful of stations with no fuel.  The media reported what was a genuine concern given the pleas from the oil industry and the evidence on the ground.  Despite pleas to not panic, that of course is what happened.  So a gradually developing car crash turned into a full frontal head on high speed collision.

 

Getting back to normal will rely on the public believing that they can get fuel when they need it.  That won't happen until filling stations have stocks again.  In the mean time the consumption of fuel remains the same as it was - maybe a bit more as people cruise around for a top up, maybe a bit less if people put of non-essential travel.

 

So the tanker drivers who were already stretched to keep supplies going will have no respite and little opportunity to make those extra deliveries needed to get the filling stations full again so that the public can indeed feel that they can get fuel when they need it rather than when they see it available.

[maico]

A logistics expert explains why the shortage of divers causes more problems in the UK than in the EU

https://trans.info/en/there-s-a-europe-wide-hgv-driver-shortage-so-why-do-uk-supply-chains-seem-more-disrupted-254524

 

[APOLLO]

Instead of rationing to £30 max, ration to £30 minimum, that should stop the tank toppers.

 

Brit15

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, laurenceb said:

Working from home- as someone here put it- living at work.

I think that depends upon the person and their state of mind, or the fact whether they can compartmentalise successfully the two.

[Reorte]

25 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

 

But this problem has been growing slowly.  The oil producers were in discussion with the government over 3 moths ago trying to get a visa system set up.  However the intransigence of the "we don't need foreign workers from the EU" brigade made sure nothing happened. Meetings were continuing up to 2 weeks ago and it suggested that someone on the government side may have leaked details to the press.

 

Then the tip of the iceberg surfaced with a handful of stations with no fuel.  The media reported what was a genuine concern given the pleas from the oil industry and the evidence on the ground.  Despite pleas to not panic, that of course is what happened.  So a gradually developing car crash turned into a full frontal head on high speed collision.

 

Getting back to normal will rely on the public believing that they can get fuel when they need it.  That won't happen until filling stations have stocks again.  In the mean time the consumption of fuel remains the same as it was - maybe a bit more as people cruise around for a top up, maybe a bit less if people put of non-essential travel.

 

So the tanker drivers who were already stretched to keep supplies going will have no respite and little opportunity to make those extra deliveries needed to get the filling stations full again so that the public can indeed feel that they can get fuel when they need it rather than when they see it available.

Just shows how minor issues can result in massive over-reactions TBH. I've not heard any reason to believe that supplies were realistically threatened, as long as people would continue to behave as normal, which of course they haven't. If people hadn't over-reacted (thus creating a mountain out of a molehill) then people would still be able to get fuel when they need it, with, at worst, a very small proportion having to go and find another petrol station from their usual one.

 

The underlying lorry drive issue is the result of years of cost-cutting and short-termism, and most of the pleas from industry appear to amount to pleas to continue supporting that.

[Reorte]

2 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

I think that depends upon the person and their state of mind, or the fact whether they can compartmentalise successfully the two.

 

The few weeks I did work from home a room in my house became the place of work. I had no problems with separating out my work and home time, but it still felt like a big intrusion in to my private life by entering in to my private home. I think that's a separate issue to compartmentalising them, and one that clearly some people don't have a problem with but I do think it'll blur the lines.

[Andy Hayter]

10 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Just shows how minor issues can result in massive over-reactions TBH. I've not heard any reason to believe that supplies were realistically threatened, as long as people would continue to behave as normal, which of course they haven't. If people hadn't over-reacted (thus creating a mountain out of a molehill) then people would still be able to get fuel when they need it, with, at worst, a very small proportion having to go and find another petrol station from their usual one.

 

The underlying lorry drive issue is the result of years of cost-cutting and short-termism, and most of the pleas from industry appear to amount to pleas to continue supporting that.

 

 

Then I suggest you go back to the post where the head of BP's forecourt sales said that their stations were running with 2/3 of their normal stock.  Missing a third of your stock at point of sale might not sound like a big deal but let me assure you that it is.

[rocor]

For those sitting in their cars, within a queue, that is so long, that they can't even see the petrol station, it should be a demonstrative lesson of what life will be like, when the oil runs out.

 

Maybe some of them have recently been considering replacing their vehicles.

 

My conclusion is that, there will a sharp increase in the number of people wishing to take test drives in electric cars.

[Reorte]

16 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

 

Then I suggest you go back to the post where the head of BP's forecourt sales said that their stations were running with 2/3 of their normal stock.  Missing a third of your stock at point of sale might not sound like a big deal but let me assure you that it is.

On a permanent, ongoing basis, repeated across every retailer?

[Denbridge]

1 hour ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

 

But this problem has been growing slowly.  The oil producers were in discussion with the government over 3 moths ago trying to get a visa system set up.  However the intransigence of the "we don't need foreign workers from the EU" brigade made sure nothing happened. Meetings were continuing up to 2 weeks ago and it suggested that someone on the government side may have leaked details to the press.

 

Then the tip of the iceberg surfaced with a handful of stations with no fuel.  The media reported what was a genuine concern given the pleas from the oil industry and the evidence on the ground.  Despite pleas to not panic, that of course is what happened.  So a gradually developing car crash turned into a full frontal head on high speed collision.

 

Getting back to normal will rely on the public believing that they can get fuel when they need it.  That won't happen until filling stations have stocks again.  In the mean time the consumption of fuel remains the same as it was - maybe a bit more as people cruise around for a top up, maybe a bit less if people put of non-essential travel.

 

So the tanker drivers who were already stretched to keep supplies going will have no respite and little opportunity to make those extra deliveries needed to get the filling stations full again so that the public can indeed feel that they can get fuel when they need it rather than when they see it available.

Yet in the vast majority of cases stations are getting regular deliveries of fuel only to have the idiotic panic buyers empty the tanks. THAT is the reason for any percieved fuel shortage when in reality there is no such thing.

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, alastairq said:

can someone tell me where this Class 1 HGV licence thing is? I held a Cat C+E....

 

Those drivers who drive the little Milk Marque tanks [two axle  vehicles] with their little turntable drawbar tank [2 axle, usually]  trailers are the doggz beees when it comes to driver skills.....The can put those wee trailers anywhere. Get an artic driver to do likewise, and they'll be tied in knots quick-time!

Class 1 is the (very) old term, it just sounds more meaningful than 'C+E'.

 

At the last 'logistics' place I worked at, they had some shorty 2-axle, rear-steer trailers, which I had to shuffle around the yard when on Shunter duties. I was rather glad I didn't have to take them out 'in anger'..!! I have driven single-axle 20ft trailers a few times and they were weird enough.

[boxbrownie]

31 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

The few weeks I did work from home a room in my house became the place of work. I had no problems with separating out my work and home time, but it still felt like a big intrusion in to my private life by entering in to my private home. I think that's a separate issue to compartmentalising them, and one that clearly some people don't have a problem with but I do think it'll blur the lines.

That sort of reinforces my post, my DiL has been WFH since last March, she works for a major motor manufacturer as a lawyer and she absolutely loves WFH, the boss was reluctant at first but after a few months realised more work was being done. Obviously she still has to attend meetings when F2F is required but it’s less than once or twice a month (and she is very busy with China’s propensity to “enhance” their own designs, she is an IP lawyer)……anyhoo she loves it, some don’t.

[Andy Hayter]

26 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

Yet in the vast majority of cases stations are getting regular deliveries of fuel only to have the idiotic panic buyers empty the tanks. THAT is the reason for any percieved fuel shortage when in reality there is no such thing.

 

You are quite right.  Panic buying has tipped the balance and created a crisis.  I never said differently.

But you are missing the back story.  Producers and BP in particular have been suffering problems for months.  Stocks at the pump have been dropping.  September should be a recovery month.  August demand over holidays has stopped.  Driver holidays reducing deliveries are over.  Yet BP (the only company we have facts for) still was not recovering stocks and needed to have talks with the government.

 

If this had not happened now.  It would have slowly evolved until the same thing happened later - maybe November perhaps December - happy Christmas everyone.

 

It is not a perceived shortage either.  It is a genuine shortage at point of sale - and that is the only thing that matters to 99% of customers.  To say there is no shortage is like Captain Smith announcing as the Titanic went down, "Don't worry about lack of  lifeboats.  We have plenty on the Olympic"

[Andy Hayter]

45 minutes ago, Reorte said:

On a permanent, ongoing basis, repeated across every retailer?

 

Of course not.  It is an average number.

[alastairq]

36 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Class 1 is the (very) old term, it just sounds more meaningful than 'C+E'.

Yup, I was taking the wee-wee

 

BAck in the 1970's, parliament [Ted 'eaff', I think?]  debated combining the HGV with the PSV licences.   This was given the heave ho as the two tests, whilst technically similar, have some considerable differences regarding elfin saftee.. But, mainly, until the mid 1980's whilst the DSA [or rather ministry of transport?] set the syllabus and conducted the HGV testing...the PSV tests [& licence issue] were set & conducted by the Area Traffic Commissioners.

[There were also issues regarding bus drivers not having criminal records, for example...being of good character, etc...] .  Although both tests were frequently conducted by the 'same' Examiners....each working for a different 'boss' depending.

Hence London Transport conducted their own driver testing. [As well as Met. Police, etc...which was a similar test, just a smaller vehicle!]  It is also why London Transport could incorporate a skid pan assessment as well. Nowt worse than Kensington High Street on a wet day, in an RT.

 

Thus, bus drivers [and conductors, they were licenced as well, by the Traffic Commissioners]...had those red badges..and why, once one moved out of the area of issue, one had to change the badge..and, often , undergo another driving test, for the new Area Traffic Commissioners.

 

All changed when we went completely EU & off our rockers.

[Andymsa]

I really do despair at how individuals would react during a real emergency, this panic buying shows us how individuals can be selfish.

 

as to the hgv driver shortage, I have nothing but admiration for hgv drivers, time away from families, living in a cold cab during winter, peeing in a bottle not able to wash properly, poor diet, the list is endless. Not exactly a glowing job advert is it to attract new drivers with poor working conditions and until this improves any other measures is like putting the deck chairs out on the titanic.

[Denbridge]

50 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

You are quite right.  Panic buying has tipped the balance and created a crisis.  I never said differently.

But you are missing the back story.  Producers and BP in particular have been suffering problems for months.  Stocks at the pump have been dropping.  September should be a recovery month.  August demand over holidays has stopped.  Driver holidays reducing deliveries are over.  Yet BP (the only company we have facts for) still was not recovering stocks and needed to have talks with the government.

 

If this had not happened now.  It would have slowly evolved until the same thing happened later - maybe November perhaps December - happy Christmas everyone.

 

It is not a perceived shortage either.  It is a genuine shortage at point of sale - and that is the only thing that matters to 99% of customers.  To say there is no shortage is like Captain Smith announcing as the Titanic went down, "Don't worry about lack of  lifeboats.  We have plenty on the Olympic"

I mentioned in another post that I have a friend who manages a superstore and its attached service station. According to her, despite media claims, she has never had a reduction in deliveries and her reserves have never reduced. Indeed she is not only receiving her usual deliveries, but an extra tanker this week. Even so she can't keep up with the unnecessary panic buying and has been forced to close twice in the last week by the police due to the disruption caused by these idiots. 

[Andy Hayter]

Sorry Denbridge, one example is not statistically significant.  If it were there would not have been  problem but there clearly is.