HS2

[DenysW]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I’d be amazed if it doesn’t end up costing 40% more, not less, than Phase 2a.

I'll join the outbreak of cynicism by saying I'd be amazed if Phase 2a didn't cost 40% more than budgeted for Phase 2a. Possibly even recursively.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Vastly cheaper per mile.

 

Plus all the major land surveying, geology etc, has already been done.

Simply cancelling 2a and then reinstating, as was, with a resulting delay of years, would increase the cost without any changes to the original plan.

Reduced line speed may save a relatively small amount of money, but not building the remainder of the line, in whatever guise it’s presented, to UIC GC, will have wasted the vast amount of money already spent on building the longer and more difficult Phase 1 to the future proofed, larger gauge.

 

 

 

.

This is an interesting area which never seems to have been explained in relation to the ill-named HS2.  While materials have changed and design has advanced the basic laws of physics have not so where is HS2 at intended speeds going to come in the power consumption tables?

 

SNCF have one very good reason for sticking with =c.186mph as there experience has shown a massive increase in power consumption if they raise normal running speed to =c.200mph or a bit above that pace.  Has anything been published about HS2 power cinsumption and the impact of its intended higher speed on that?

Edited Wednesday at 16:19 by The Stationmaster

[david.hill64]

It's not just power consumption. The Chinese have reduced their maximum speed to about 200mph as the maintenance requirements for the overhead line went through the roof.

[Hibelroad]

Funny cartoon in the papers today, HS2 lite as a replacement bus service. 

[jjb1970]

In many technologies what is technically achievable and what is sensible for everyday use are two separate things. China has played with extremely high speeds and the trains are quite capable of it but it doesn't follow that such speeds are sensible in service. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

I see that there has been quite a bit of research going on, into improving the aerodynamics of HS trains to make them far more efficient and less power hungry, at higher speeds above 300 kph (186 mph).

It seems a lot of this research revolves around boundary layer control and the use of blown air to modify the airflow around these trains.

Playing around with different types of “pointy nose” can only take you so far, with aerodynamic drag along and behind the train, being the key issue to address.

HS2 is coming too soon to take advantage of such developments.

 

For the scientifically minded…….

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167610523001320

 

 

 

.

[phil-b259]

10 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

I see that there has been quite a bit of research going on, into improving the aerodynamics of HS trains to make them far more efficient and less power hungry, at higher speeds above 300 kph (186 mph).

It seems a lot of this research revolves around boundary layer control and the use of blown air to modify the airflow around these trains.

Playing around with different types of “pointy nose” can only take you so far, with aerodynamic drag along and behind the train, being the key issue to address.

HS2 is coming too soon to take advantage of such developments.

 

For the scientifically minded…….

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167610523001320

 

 

 

.

It’s all very well having fancy nose cones on your ECTS signaled high speed line - but you need to remember that whatever front end you come up with also has to provide good driver visibility of traditional lineside signals on the UKs conventional rail network!

 

You also need to consider overhang and whether your fancy end will go and clout platforms (particularly curved ones) if it extends to far ahead of the front bogie.

 

There is also the fact that a long and pointy nose takes up space - again with trains needing to be used on the conventional U.K. rail network, space at major stations / termini is constrained and fancy nose cones could well end up reducing the number of seats.

[APOLLO]

All this expense and palava for the sake of a few minutes on a (say) 200 mile journey to London. A vanity issue.

 

Yes we need HS2 (all of it to Manchester AND the Golborne link), as the WCML is basically at capacity now.

 

150 (ish) mph is quite fast enough (Pendolinos were designed for 140mph) given the very much higher costs for faster speeds on an exponential scale.

 

As to north of (wherever HS2 joins the WCML), the current Pendolinos are fine. whatever replaces them will need to be fit for purpose (and affordable) given the shortage of money for the foreseeable future. Much discussed in earlier posts.

 

I foresee another TPE Class 68 locomotive and Mk 5 coaches  (Nova 3 train set) type disaster coming (nearly typed Train Wreck !!).

 

Brit15

[Phil Parker]

13 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

All this expense and palava for the sake of a few minutes on a (say) 200 mile journey to London. A vanity issue.

 

Do we REALLY need to explain how it's not about saving a few minutes to Birmingham again?

 

14 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Yes we need HS2 (all of it to Manchester AND the Golborne link), as the WCML is basically at capacity now.

 

150 (ish) mph is quite fast enough (Pendolinos were designed for 140mph) given the very much higher costs for faster speeds on an exponential scale.

 

As to north of (wherever HS2 joins the WCML), the current Pendolinos are fine. whatever replaces them will need to be fit for purpose (and affordable) given the shortage of money for the foreseeable future. Much discussed in earlier posts.

 

I foresee another TPE Class 68 locomotive and Mk 5 coaches  (Nova 3 train set) type disaster coming (nearly typed Train Wreck !!).

 

Excellent idea. Let's scrap the current plans, and replan from scratch, which is what any significant change would amount to. That would delay the project even more, and allow for the annual re-assessment demanded by some idiot backbencher to be repeated a dozen times!

 

Constant interference in any project that takes longer than a week is why we can't do infrastructure in this country.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Hibelroad said:

Funny cartoon in the papers today, HS2 lite as a replacement bus service. 

Nothing new in the red tops..

 

Back in the 1990’s I remember a cartoon of a TGV emerging from the Tunnel, and passengers deboarding to take a 1930’s style Tram with a BR logo to London.

 

Tried to find it to share, but its pre-internet, but it was comical.

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Do we REALLY need to explain how it's not about saving a few minutes to Birmingham again?

 

 

Excellent idea. Let's scrap the current plans, and replan from scratch, which is what any significant change would amount to. That would delay the project even more, and allow for the annual re-assessment demanded by some idiot backbencher to be repeated a dozen times!

 

Constant interference in any project that takes longer than a week is why we can't do infrastructure in this country.

 

Not what I inferred. Read my post. HS2 IS needed as WCML is full.

 

We should continue as is, but I agree  the constant alterations and cancellations do more harm and add to costs significantly.

 

North of Crewe is a problem, some tweaks will help, but the big bottlenecks remain (Wigan especially).

 

Brit15

[jamie92208]

An aside from the above, I've just got back from Angouleme and crossed the LGV line just north of the infrastructure maintenance depot at Villognon.  At this point the line crosses the very scenic Charente valley.  It's been open since July 2017, IIRC, but was built over the previous 5 years with most earthworks complete by 2015.  The viaducts are mainly of the double composite type being built on HS2.   This is what the Charente viaduct area looks like now.

In my opinion, certainly not a blot on the landscape.   In the foreground is a recently harvested sunflower field.

 

Jamie

[St Enodoc]

3 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

In my opinion, certainly not a blot on the landscape.

Better than those windmills...

[jamie92208]

7 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Better than those windmills...

It's actually quite difficult to see where the line heads north after the viaduct.

 

Jamie

[Ron Ron Ron]

The Wendover Dean Viaduct, under construction in the Chilterns.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Latest view of the Burton Green tunnel works....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[locoholic]

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Constant interference in any project that takes longer than a week is why we can't do infrastructure in this country.

And the reason for the constant interference is that the country is pretty much full. Biodiversity is worse than most European countries, and population density in many areas is amongst the highest. Just bulldozing projects through will cause major degradation. Add to that the fact that any rail project in the UK involves huge sums of public money, because without it there'd be no rail network at all, and  constant interference is inevitable. The alternative would be handing a blank cheque to people like Lord Hendy...

Edited yesterday at 11:36 by locoholic

[jamie92208]

 

1 hour ago, locoholic said:

And the reason for the constant interference is that the country is pretty much full. Biodiversity is worse than most European countries, and population density in many areas is amongst the highest. Just bulldozing projects through will cause major degradation. Add to that the fact that any rail project in the UK involves huge sums of public money, because without it there'd be no rail network at all, and  constant interference is inevitable. The alternative would be handing a blank cheque to people like Lord Hendy...

Actually most of the above ground route looks pretty empty from the posted videos.  As the photo the LGV SEA that I posted above shows, the railway will blend into the landscape much more than the M40 has. 

 

Jamie

Edited yesterday at 12:41 by jamie92208

[locoholic]

27 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

 

Actually most of the above ground route looks pretty empty from the posted videos.  As the photo the LGV

SEA that I posted above shows, the railway will blend into the landscape much more than the M40 has. 

 

Jamie

Empty?? Outer space is empty!

[APOLLO]

Railways do blend into the landscape, as HS2 will do over time.

 

 

Cant discussed earlier, visible mid train above.

 

 

Brit15

[jamie92208]

13 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

Railways do blend into the landscape, as HS2 will do over time.

 

 

Cant discussed earlier, visible mid train above.

 

 

Brit15

Off topic I remember having a family picnic  in the field above where the 92 is in the top photo.  We saw 3 Princess Coronations and a class 40.  The spot was obliterated by the motorway. 

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

A video from HS2 showing progress at the Interchange station just south of Delta Junction. 

 

Jamie

[62613]

4 hours ago, locoholic said:

And the reason for the constant interference is that the country is pretty much full. Biodiversity is worse than most European countries, and population density in many areas is amongst the highest. Just bulldozing projects through will cause major degradation. Add to that the fact that any rail project in the UK involves huge sums of public money, because without it there'd be no rail network at all, and  constant interference is inevitable. The alternative would be handing a blank cheque to people like Lord Hendy...

About 2% of the land in the U.K. is built on. Sometimes I do wonder if a blank cheque wouldn't be a bad idea, rather than the constant spoiling of the ship for a ha'porth of tar mentality abroad in our country; quite often when the project is just about to bear fruit. Before anyone comments, I do know from my lowly position that that's not how it works!

Edited yesterday at 16:14 by 62613

[locoholic]

1 hour ago, 62613 said:

About 2% of the land in the U.K. is built on. Sometimes I do wonder if a blank cheque wouldn't be a bad idea, rather than the constant spoiling of the ship for a ha'porth of tar mentality abroad in our country; quite often when the project is just about to bear fruit. Before anyone comments, I do know from my lowly position that that's not how it works!

Go to Los Angeles if you want to see what a blank cheque looks like...

[jamie92208]

A couple of days ago I said that I'd repost the map of the Delta Junction so that people can make sense of the badly titled and uncaptioned videos of the complex area.   I've finally managed to resize the file to a reasonable size.

 

 

Jamie