HS2

[martin_wynne]

53 minutes ago, DenysW said:

Newcastle-on-Clun

 

Not many diamond-crossings there:

 

 

 

[DY444]

On 14/09/2024 at 09:05, david.hill64 said:

The concrete slabs last nearly as long as the civil structures: typical design life is at least 60 years. Rail realignment is only required in case of structural settlement and the fasteners are designed to allow that. No need for routine tamping to maintain alignment. The rails need to be replaced when they wear out but that is no different to ballasted track. Similarly routine grinding for RCF prevention will be no different. Because you don't need as much routine maintenance, capacity is increased.

 

Ok.  However design life and actual service life don't always align and real world service wear and tear can make fools of even the most competent of people.  For instance I wonder what the LMR CCE would have said in 1959 about the anticipated maintenance requirements of his shiny new electrified main line?  Then a handful of years later along comes a fleet of 100mph 80 ton pogo sticks on wheels in the form of the AL6s, presumably designed by competent people, which messed things up a bit.  So much so in fact that a considerable sum of money was spent un-pogoing them.

 

We'll see of course but I won't be surprised if this virtually maintenance free concrete track base neither lasts 60 years or is as maintenance free as intended.  Still this is the railway we're talking about so let them spend more money than they need to on something unproven in the UK, and which is not used by the French who have the most experience of High Speed Rail in Europe.  Imo it's all tied in with this wholly unnecessary obsession to go faster than 300kph and like all obsessions it is clouding sound judgement.   

[62613]

1 hour ago, DenysW said:

 

And that's the need for speed for business.  It makes it possible to do things in a sane single-day-trip that wouldn't be possible by car (too much risk of delays) or air (too few flights).

 

I rarely had to go to contract-type meetings long distance (too much a minion); much more often it was part of checking out whether a new-to-us technology was actually doing what the salesman/woman said in real-life service. UK Trips included Avoch, Market Harborough, Selby, Ashford (Kent), Slough, Gillingham, Plymouth, Newcastle-on-Clun, and Windermere. A day trip removed the cost of hotels and eating-out at them. Cross-industry forums were also much better done face-to-face.

I was in a meeting like that in London in about 2004. Train down from Manchester, tube to Holborn Viaduct, meeting for 20 minutes ( but it mattered!) then back home the same day

[Ron Ron Ron]

20 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

 

As far as I know, no tunnels on phase 2a.  However the link into Manchester needed tunnels under the airport then nearly to Piccadilly. 

 

Jamie

There isn’t any tunnel under the airport, in the original Phase 2b design.

The route passes to the west of the airport on a SW - NE alignment to the west of the M56 (the other side of the motorway from the airport).

The HS2 airport station site is located between junctions 5 & 6, on that west side of the motorway.

 

The long tunnel into central Manchester, commences just to the NE of the HS2 airport station, extending all the way to Ardwick, just less than a mile from Piccadilly.

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

23 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Why would they want trains to bypass Crewe, which offers connection to so many destinations?

As originally conceived, HS2 was not intended to provide connections.

80-90% of the passengers are travelling the full length of the routes between London and Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds…the original, full core routes.
These core point-to-point routes were predicted to grow significantly in the latter half of the 21st century.

 

As such HS2 was conceived and originally designed to take those point-to-point passenger flows off the conventional “classic” network and place them on a dedicated and separate railway system, thus relieving the classic network and providing much needed extra capacity for freight and local and regional passenger services.

It was decided that the dedicated HS2 route network would be not only built as a HS line, but also built to the UIC GC gauge, to provide for future growth over the whole of this century and beyond.

It would allow the possibility of double deck trains and originally, the possibly of a link to HS1 (since dismissed).

 

That left the question of WCML services to/from Scotland and how to serve Liverpool (thought not to economically warrant a dedicated branch).

That’s where the idea of linking into the classic network, towards the northern extremities of the dedicated HS2 network, came in.

With Liverpool trains leaving HS2 to the south of Crewe and Scotland bound trains joining the WCML a bit further north (Golborne link).

Had the original plan been delivered in full, three quarters of all HS2 traffic, would have been wholly contained on the dedicated HS2 network., with HS2 only, UIC gauge trains ultimately forming the bulk of the train fleet.

 

Subsequent variations and cancellations to the original HS2 program have had significant impacts on the original scheme.

First “mission creep”, adding costly extras like the Crewe Hub, East Midlands Hub at Toton, the Stoke and Macclesfield service and links towards York and the NE.

Then came a reversal with the cuts, in the form of the eastern leg being curtailed at the East Midlands Parkway and later on cancelled altogether; and latterly the cancellation of Phase 2a & b.

 

We now have an almighty mess as a result.

Notably a high capacity, high speed, future proofed UIC GC gauge railway, only running between London and Birmingham and Handsacre, that cannot be fully utilised, as designed and built.

If any new scheme is built from Lichfield to the NW that isn’t built to UIC GC standard, as they are proposing, it will be a typical British exercise of perceived short term pragmatism, which will ultimately be seen as an expensive and possibly catastrophic mistake, in future decades.

 

 

.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 19:00 by Ron Ron Ron

[david.hill64]

3 hours ago, DY444 said:

We'll see of course but I won't be surprised if this virtually maintenance free concrete track base neither lasts 60 years or is as maintenance free as intended.  Still this is the railway we're talking about so let them spend more money than they need to on something unproven in the UK, and which is not used by the French who have the most experience of High Speed Rail in Europe.  Imo it's all tied in with this wholly unnecessary obsession to go faster than 300kph and like all obsessions it is clouding sound judgement.   

 

The French of course generally don't use slab track as far as I know. Hence their need to close lines for a 'White Period' (I think they call it) during the day for maintenance.

 

Shinkanshen uses slab track and has done for 60 years. I am unaware of any major replacement required. I am quite familiar with the Taiwan HSR system which also uses slab track and has to date been largely maintenance free: the only problems being settlement of the viaduct piers requiring shimming of the track. Settlement to be expected in an earthquake environment.

 

UK of course was an early user of slab track in lower speed environments. I remember well being in a presentation in Taiwan in 1992 about the recommended track form for the HSR there. My UK colleague was making the presentation and when he announced that his conclusion was that slab track was to be preferred, he was immediately denounced by the French delegation who (rightly) claimed that the UK PACT system was unproven in high speed applications. My colleague let them rant on for a bit before calmly announcing that his recommendation was for the Japanese J slab system, much to the amusement of all others gathered there. This was a time when French consultants were a marketing arm for the French rail industry.

 

I have no idea which system HS2 will choose, but either the German or Japanese would seem appropriate. I think that the Chinese slab is a copy.

[jamie92208]

I can't remember where I saw it but I think the slab track is in relatively shortbkengthsvthat slit together. I think they are being produced in a new factory a next to one of the Mendip quarries. 

 

Jamie 

[Ron Ron Ron]

It seems like slow progress on the Burton Green tunnel, but this latest video show things have moved on quite a bit in recent months.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

Piles for the station building are now going in at Curzon Street.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

At the other end of the site, here's a view of the approach viaduct, from the Digbeth Branch Canal....

 

 

 

 

 

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[Ron Ron Ron]

26 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I can't remember where I saw it but I think the slab track is in relatively shortbkengthsvthat slit together. I think they are being produced in a new factory a next to one of the Mendip quarries. 

 

Jamie 

 

Here's the HS2 Ltd press release.....

 

https://mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news/porr-consortium-wins-hs2-modular-track-contract

 

 

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[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, 62613 said:

I was in a meeting like that in London in about 2004. Train down from Manchester, tube to Holborn Viaduct, meeting for 20 minutes ( but it mattered!) then back home the same day

Not quite the same context but in 2004 I flew overnight from Singapore to Heathrow. After a quick SSS into the West End for an all-day meeting, then a meal and return to Heathrow for another overnight flight back to Singapore. No time to get jet-lagged.

[jjb1970]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Not quite the same context but in 2004 I flew overnight from Singapore to Heathrow. After a quick SSS into the West End for an all-day meeting, then a meal and return to Heathrow for another overnight flight back to Singapore. No time to get jet-lagged.

 

Think of the Krisflyer points🤣

 

I do stuff like that, I don't mind very short trips where I don't have time to adjust, or long ones where you adjust but have time to sleep normally for a few days before going home. The worst are those just long enough to adjust before going home so you have to go through it twice without even getting the benefit of sleep patterns on local time wherever it is you're visiting.

 

Despite being assured that business travel was yesterday's thing I have seen no change before and after the pandemic. Similarly, after being told the office was yesterday's thing so commuting would never be the same again I find most companies I work for or with have reverted to requiring some attendance in an office even if they allow some hybridized home working.

[APOLLO]

This is an interesting image of PORR "Austrian" slab track.

 

https://porr-group.com/en/projects/austrian-slab-track-technology-for-australia/

 

 

The raised "girders" also perform a guard rail type job. Needed for the UK ?

 

Brit15

[StuAllen]

HS2 is the subject of Panorama this evening https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c98486dzxnzo

[martin_wynne]

40 minutes ago, StuAllen said:

HS2 is the subject of Panorama this evening https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c98486dzxnzo

 

Already on iPlayer: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m002336f/panorama-hs2-the-railway-that-blew-billions

 

[corneliuslundie]

And a completely biased and incompetent item on the BBC website:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c98486dzxnzo

For a start there are numerous statements about spending public money. Do they have no idea of the funding mechanism? 

Jonathan

[Ron Ron Ron]

I’ve just watched the Panorama program and read the article on the BBC website.

 

Right at the beginning, when HS2 Ltd was formed to run the project, my gut feeling was this would be a financial disaster.

HS2 Ltd is a pseudo company and in reality just another bloated, incompetent branch of the civil service.

Rather than put the whole project out to tender, the Treasury, DfT and CS at large wanted to run the show themselves.

An anecdote that might have no relevance….In the early days, a wife of one of my former work colleagues, a fairly senior, upper middle manager in the CS was seconded from work and pensions, to help set up a department in the new HS2 company.

She is a very intelligent person, but had no experience in infrastructure, civil engineering, transportation or working in a commercial corporate environment. She was there for a few years, before moving back to another CS department.

How many more such people were embedded in this project early on, I haven’t a clue about.

I understand that the company has been staffed with experienced people from the various industries involved in these type of programs, but the structure and ethos of HS2 Ltd appears to mirror past public sector debacles.

Remember the Crossrail senior management carried out similar cover ups and deception over the finances, before everything came to a head and competent senior managers were drafted in to sort the mess out.

I wouldn’t trust a government run project to put a new garden gate in for me.

 

 

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[Grovenor]

7 hours ago, APOLLO said:

This is an interesting image of PORR "Austrian" slab track.

 

https://porr-group.com/en/projects/austrian-slab-track-technology-for-australia/

 

 

The raised "girders" also perform a guard rail type job. Needed for the UK ?

 

Brit15

So they are already contracted to provide the slabs for stage 2a. I imagine any potential savings from using sleeper track on the new stage 2a will be wiped out by the compensation due to PORR for cutting back their contract.

[melmerby]

On 15/09/2024 at 09:40, DenysW said:

in Birmingham: a new station is being provided an inconvenient distance from New St to make London->Curzon St not a sane way to get faster to the rest of England.

600m concourse to concourse on foot or 5 mins by tram.

It couldn't be any closer due to what's already there.

Edited Monday at 17:46 by melmerby

[DenysW]

34 minutes ago, melmerby said:

600m concourse to concourse on foot or 5 mins by tram.

It couldn't be any closer due to what's already there.

Hence 'inconvenient' not 'impossible'. It still means you'd not go Euston->Curzon St -> New St. -> on-going destinations as your first choice.

 

MrsW is tempted to complain (when the journeys are in roughly the same direction) when she isn't dropped off and then picked up at the same platform! This has never happened at New St. but has happened at York.

[phil-b259]

On 15/09/2024 at 11:07, corneliuslundie said:

Sorry, Phil, but with Scunthorpe and Port Talbot closing we will be the only country in the G10 without facilities for making virgin steel. What has never been made clear in all the debate about coal and steel is that recycled steel is not suitable for things like railway rails, cars etc. There is just one very experimental steel plant somewhere in Scandinavia which is trying to make virgin steel using the electrical process but when I last heard it had not yet produced any.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cydr07nz2z4o

Jonathan

 

As far as I know Scunthorpe is not closing anytime soon.

 

More broadly this 'only country in the G10 without facilities for making virgin steel' stuff is rather tiresome - the UK is very unlikely to find itself in a situation where it is shut out of EU steel factories for example and while there are obviously employment impacts from not producing onshore - given the ample evidence of man made climate change then carrying on as normal is not an option!

[corneliuslundie]

Sorry, but Scunthorpe is to stop making virgin steel.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-67329074

The previous link also said that.

I agree that we will be able to import it from Europe but that is less green than making it ourselves as it includes unnecessary transport costs.  And from outside Europe we can not guarantee that it will be manufactured in an environmentally responsible way.

Even if it had not been a certainty already, the recent refusal of planning permission for a new deep coal mine to produce coal for Scunthorpe was the final nail in the coffin. 

What I find incredible is that in all the debate about Port Talbot moving  away from virgin steel ino-one has mentioned that the steel produced there from scrap will simply not be suitable for many applications.

Jonathan

[phil-b259]

49 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Sorry, but Scunthorpe is to stop making virgin steel.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-67329074

The previous link also said that.

I agree that we will be able to import it from Europe but that is less green than making it ourselves as it includes unnecessary transport costs.  And from outside Europe we can not guarantee that it will be manufactured in an environmentally responsible way. 

 

Even if it had not been a certainty already, the recent refusal of planning permission for a new deep coal mine to produce coal for Scunthorpe was the final nail in the coffin. 

 

What I find incredible is that in all the debate about Port Talbot moving  away from virgin steel ino-one has mentioned that the steel produced there from scrap will simply not be suitable for many applications.

Jonathan

 

I admit I didn't read the article first time round and was unaware Scunthorpe was shutting its blast furnaces so soon (and a UK coal mine was in no way essential to their survival) but was aware that they were due to be closed at some point in the future.

 

The emissions produced by transportation from Europe are going to be considerably less than the emissions produced by a blast furnace - particularly as low carbon options transport options are available.

 

While I fully appreciate there is a need for 'virgin' steel - for the goodness of the planet such plants must be few in number and intensively worked.

 

The brutal truth is that for several decades Europe (including the UK) has been over-provisioned with steel making plants (largely due to politicians not wanting to tell the truth to voters for fear of a ballot box backlash) and there is capacity to cater* for UK needs.

 

 

 

*Granted things may have been different if the UK politicians hadn't effectively abandoned manufacturing in terms of creating GDP in favour of the service sector / banking many decades ago....

[woodenhead]

@phil-b259 whilst it might be greener I am somewhat concerned that the most basic form of industrial production used in many UK based industries will have outsourced overseas. 
 

it’s all very well moving to a cleaner society but it should not make us weaker and dependent on foreign support, going green is just an excuse not to support basic industrial strength.

 

We could choose to lead the way with technology but instead we give it away losing the skills we honed and sold to the world during the Industrial Revolution 

[phil-b259]

38 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

@phil-b259 whilst it might be greener I am somewhat concerned that the most basic form of industrial production used in many UK based industries will have outsourced overseas. 
 

it’s all very well moving to a cleaner society but it should not make us weaker and dependent on foreign support, going green is just an excuse not to support basic industrial strength.

 

We could choose to lead the way with technology but instead we give it away losing the skills we honed and sold to the world during the Industrial Revolution 

 

Firstly there is overseas and there is overseas....

 

We might well have left the club but last time I looked there were plenty of EU steelworks who would be only to glad of our business. Moreover a sane analysis of geo-politics proves that we are extremely unlikely to be cut off from said sources (a la WW2) or find ourselves in a situation where steel cannot be procured in a timely fashion

 

Secondly, yes, in an ideal world the UKs industrial base would have retained a large quantity of manufacturing industry (and thus a high demand for steel) but seeing as said industry was dismantled decades ago in pursuit of an economy based on services / finance then we should not complain about offshoring steel production either.

Edited Monday at 21:24 by phil-b259