HS2

[jamie92208]

That's a big hard standing next to it so presumably that's where all the Cranes and lorries etc will be.  From that video it looks as if they have four pads ready for the feet to stand on. 

 

This video shows the southern exit from the tunnels at Long Itchington Wood.  Lots of progress here. It looks as if the tunnel inverts are now prepared for tracklaying.  Also I believe that the road is going to be reinstated to give the polo club it's ground back.  If that happens the southern tunnel exit should provide a good photo opportunity for trains entering and exiting the tunnels. 

 

 

 

 

Jamie

[stivesnick]

On 20/08/2024 at 10:34, Ron Ron Ron said:

Platform edge doors are to be fitted at Old Oak Common and Birmingham Interchange. They would have also been used at Manchester Airport, on Phase 2b.

I’m not sure they were required for the terminal stations at Euston, Curzon St. and Piccadilly.

 

The situation at Euston was that there would be platform screens with gaps but no actual doors. The theory being that passengers would not be allowed onto the platform until the train had been serviced and was ready to accept new passengers so less risk of people falling onto the track. 

 

A number of issues with the design had come up before the whole Euston station scheme was paused. Firstly the platforms could accommodate 2 seperate 200m long trains. In this situation the openings in the screen for the front train would not be in the same location as if there were two units coupled together, so more opening would be needed. Secondly as some trains were stabled at Euston overnight, there would have to be flaps in the screen to allow staff to fill up the water tanks. Also the trains would have to have two filling points as the normal fill point at low level would not be accessible from the platform. The process for emptying out the waste tanks was also causing much discussion and will no doubt be seen as another HS2 "scandal" at some stage. 

 

If it is decided to use Pendolino trains on HS2, the doors will be if completely different locations that that of the HS2 fleet so some serious redesign of the platform door system would be required, or they would just delete it completely saving a large amount of money. Not sure how the Rail Regulator would react to such a proposal.

 

Nick 

[corneliuslundie]

Why are platform doors felt to be needed? We have hundreds of stations without them.

Is it another case of "protectum rectum" whatever the cost andfinconvenience?

Jonathan

[Northmoor]

44 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Why are platform doors felt to be needed? We have hundreds of stations without them.

Is it another case of "protectum rectum" whatever the cost andfinconvenience?

Jonathan

Judging by the number of people who fall off station platforms or climb down onto the track to retrieve phones, pens etc., which at the very least lead to delays and at worst the remains of a body someone has to recover, no it isn't unnecessary.  When you consider how fast some trains will go through stations like OOC, would you want to be standing too close to the edge, or in the path of a bag launched by the wind blast from a passing train.  At very busy stations (like the Jubilee Line extension on the London Underground, platform edge doors are a big bonus and allow platforms to remain open long after the entrances to stations without PEDs would have been closed.

 

All stations now have platforms; once upon a time you climbed up from ground level.  The world moves on.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, stivesnick said:

 

The situation at Euston was that there would be platform screens with gaps but no actual doors. The theory being that passengers would not be allowed onto the platform until the train had been serviced and was ready to accept new passengers so less risk of people falling onto the track. 

 

A number of issues with the design had come up before the whole Euston station scheme was paused. Firstly the platforms could accommodate 2 seperate 200m long trains. In this situation the openings in the screen for the front train would not be in the same location as if there were two units coupled together, so more opening would be needed. Secondly as some trains were stabled at Euston overnight, there would have to be flaps in the screen to allow staff to fill up the water tanks. Also the trains would have to have two filling points as the normal fill point at low level would not be accessible from the platform. The process for emptying out the waste tanks was also causing much discussion and will no doubt be seen as another HS2 "scandal" at some stage. 

 

If it is decided to use Pendolino trains on HS2, the doors will be if completely different locations that that of the HS2 fleet so some serious redesign of the platform door system would be required, or they would just delete it completely saving a large amount of money. Not sure how the Rail Regulator would react to such a proposal.

 

Nick 

There should be no problems at all when it comes to emptying waste tanks provided that said tanks have sufficient capacity to cope with UK bladder action (something which came to light in Eurostar experience where 373  tank 'refreshing' and emptying was needed at more frequent intervals than is the case with SNCF's domestic TGV's).  And once you have tanks with the right capacity you simply diagram the sets to pass over what is usually known in the trade as 'the bog road' at appropriate intervals.

 

If you can't get those (very simple) things right in designing and diagramming trains you'd better stay with Playmobil or Lego trains.

[david.hill64]

Actually it is quite difficult to make a case for retrofitting platform screen doors to systems on the basis of safety improvements alone - the costs will likely be disproportionate to the benefit. Hong Kong MTR justified retrofit by the cost savings in electricity through not trying to air condition the tunnels with the station A/C equipment. Bangkok Skytrain use the screens for advertising, justifying the refit costs.

 

However, on a new system where the design can be integrated with other systems, I think it will hard to justify not fitting.

[St Enodoc]

54 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

Actually it is quite difficult to make a case for retrofitting platform screen doors to systems on the basis of safety improvements alone - the costs will likely be disproportionate to the benefit. Hong Kong MTR justified retrofit by the cost savings in electricity through not trying to air condition the tunnels with the station A/C equipment. Bangkok Skytrain use the screens for advertising, justifying the refit costs.

 

However, on a new system where the design can be integrated with other systems, I think it will hard to justify not fitting.

I think it was Russell Black's famous phrase "we're not trying to cool the mountain".

[jjb1970]

On platform screens and doors, after a few years of commuting on a system which has them system wide I now feel a bit uncomfortable on crowded platforms without them, particularly very densely crowded ones like on the London Underground. That may be just a personal and subjective emotional response on my part to the changes induced by getting accustomed to platform screens and doors but it does seem widely shared when I talk to others who have become accustomed to them.

[corneliuslundie]

But it is completely impractical to fit platform doors to major stations where different types of stock use the same platforms. So they can be fitted from new at Euston (if built), OOC and Birmingham, but as soon as the trains are let loose on the rest of the network it would be impossible at places such as Carlisle, Glasgow etc. And I don't feel that HS2 trains are those where there is most need, as I can't imagine the platforms being crammed like the Central Line since presumably there will only be a limited number of passengers, ie one load per train say every 15 minutes.  I can understand that they may be desirable on the Underground for central stations.

If we are not careful, once again we shall be increasing costs considerably for a minimal increase in safety, leading to increased fares and driving passengers onto the much less safe roads. Or making schemes unaffordable in the first place.

Jonathan

[Ron Ron Ron]

On 27/08/2024 at 20:37, corneliuslundie said:

Why are platform doors felt to be needed? We have hundreds of stations without them.

Is it another case of "protectum rectum" whatever the cost andfinconvenience?

Jonathan

 

 

Something to consider?

The initial HS2 train fleet is "classic compatible" (CC) .......and the stations on HS2 ( Euston, OOC, BHX interchange, Curzon St. and if built later, Manchester Airport and Piccadilly) are due to be built to accommodate wider (and taller) UIC GC gauge trains  ( that's if they will ever appear now, after all the cutting back?).

 

Therefore there will be a wider platform edge to door gap at these HS2 stations, than there will be at stations the trains will call at on the "classic" NR railway.

The HS2 CC trains will be fitted will extending steps to bridge the wide gap and give level boarding at these HS2 stations, but that leaves a wide gap alongside the rest of the train, between the doors.

That would that be another safety risk, that the PED's mitigate.

Hence the use of screens with openings at the Termini.

There isn't such an issue at stations on the "classic" network.

 

Further to what Nick (stivesnick) said earlier about passengers only being allowed onto the Euston and Curzon St. platforms when the train is released for boarding.

Conversely, at OOC and Interchange, passengers will be allowed onto the platforms in readiness for boarding arriving trains.

Hence the difference in the two types of platform edge protection.

 

Incidentally, the PED contract went out to tender over a year ago and is due to be awarded next spring (in around 6 months time).

 

 

.

Edited August 28 by Ron Ron Ron

[Pacific231G]

On 27/08/2024 at 23:19, The Stationmaster said:

There should be no problems at all when it comes to emptying waste tanks provided that said tanks have sufficient capacity to cope with UK bladder action (something which came to light in Eurostar experience where 373  tank 'refreshing' and emptying was needed at more frequent intervals than is the case with SNCF's domestic TGV's).  And once you have tanks with the right capacity you simply diagram the sets to pass over what is usually known in the trade as 'the bog road' at appropriate intervals.

 

If you can't get those (very simple) things right in designing and diagramming trains you'd better stay with Playmobil or Lego trains.

All those passengers getting nervous about going under the sea perhaps (or is it just our beer swilling habits?)

[jjb1970]

Another advantage of platform doors, if passengers are sufficiently disciplined to behave is to aid boarding and alighting. A lot of metro type systems have queue lines on the platforms either side of the door with the centre left clear to let people get off. That only works if people use it but in many places they do and it works very well. That doesn't necessarily need doors and can be applied anywhere if you know where the train doors will be.

[jamie92208]

This video of the Chiltern north portal has just popped up

 

Lots of work going on presumably making the tapered entrances.  Two points.  The landscaping is looking good and there doesn't appear to be much progress heading north.  I thi k that a different contractor is doing that section but Align have been subcontracted to build some of the bridges. 

 

Jamie

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

……..Lots of work going on presumably making the tapered entrances…..

It looks like the same sort of aerodynamic and noise reducing portals under construction at the south portal, are being here too.

 

 

.

[lmsforever]

This vidio shows how the worksites soon recover I hope the people around here realise that the works will  finnish in time and the countryside will return ,I try and put this view over when people start moaning .I think that people seem to think that a railway will appear with no signs of work and of course wildlife is high on thier list of complaints somtimes no amount of work satisfies them.But in a couple of years all will be complete and they will find other things to moan about.

[Phil Parker]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Sliding doors need time to open/close… thus increasing dwell times… especially when one doesnt quite shut etc etc.

 

I remember a friend who worked for the railway explaining how the new sliding door sprinter (it was that long ago) helped dwell times as the passengers couldn't leave a slam door open while they nipped to the buffet.

[Ron Ron Ron]

50 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

…..Sliding doors need time to open/close… thus increasing dwell times… especially when one doesnt quite shut etc etc.

 

It can’t take much longer than the delay and time it takes for doors to be released on modern trains today.

Trains come to a complete stop and there’s quite a long delay before the doors are released.

Pressing the open button has no effect until that release sequence is completed.

The PED’s on the Elizabeth line take no longer to open, in my experience.

 

 

.

[Ron Ron Ron]

9 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I remember a friend who worked for the railway explaining how the new sliding door sprinter (it was that long ago) helped dwell times as the passengers couldn't leave a slam door open while they nipped to the buffet.

I remember the slam door stock, when people would pile off the train at stations, especially at peak hours, with most of them leaving the doors swinging open.

If nobody was getting on at any particular door, that door remained open and the guard, or the sole member of platform staff, would have to rush down the platform to shut it.

Talk about delayed departures !

 

 

 

Edited August 29 by Ron Ron Ron

[jjb1970]

For decades the Japanese resisted plug doors in favour of pocketed sliding doors because they claimed plug doors weren't as good. I suspect that was once true but ended up as more resistance to change. 

 

With most trains here the train and platform edge doors operate simultaneously with no delay. However there is a slight lag between the train doors and platform doors on the new NSEW stock. They seem to be working on it as the lag is now less than when they entered service.

[jjb1970]

Here is an alternative platform edge system at Tokyo Narita station. It's not as solid or secure as a barrier but it serves it's purpose of keeping people from the edge, when the train stops the plastic rope lines lift up. The big advantage is it allows operation with different rolling stop types as the train doors are not fixed by the platform door arrangement.

 

[bimble]

Day One of those in the UK will see some yoff seeing if they go up with enough force to take their body weight

[Northmoor]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Thats because they are new, wait until its 1 day outside warranty…

 

Try using the Jubilee line pain free… every day one goes pop somewhere.. doesnt open, doesnt close, partially open… i see it all the time.. then theres the train door that goes faulty, needing manual intervention on the ped first.

 

PEDs can be quite annoying, on the Jubilee line, especially when the driver doesnt quite line up etc… usually followed by the “This train is now out of service announcement”, which then takes minutes as each coach is manually checked and closed.

 

Academic Perfection, requires real world perfection, which doesnt exist, especially in rush hour.

You must be spectacularly unlucky if you are "seeing that all the time" as they are considered extremely reliable (as are Tube train doors themselves).  Service disruption on the Jubilee is much more affected by a shortage of trains due to significant fleet-wide faults which are taking many months to address.

 

BTW the driver doesn't line up the train with the doors, as the Jubilee normally operates in full auto mode in the underground section of the JLE (Canning Town - Green Park).

[david.hill64]

 

When platform edge doors were fitted retrospectively to the Bangkok Skytrain system the dwell times went up by about 2s per station. Over the length of the route it had a significant impact on the journey time. The signalling system has to determine that the train has stopped in the correct place (rather than just stopped), then has to release the train doors allowing them to open, has to release the platform doors allowing them to open, then the opening and closing sequences have to be checked to avoid trapping people between. (There is a horrible video from China on what happens when you don't do this). On departure the signalling system needs to be assured that both sets of doors are closed before permitting the train to start. Getting it right on a new build is far easier than applying retrospectively.

 

[jjb1970]

7 hours ago, bimble said:

Day One of those in the UK will see some yoff seeing if they go up with enough force to take their body weight

 

Indeed, that goes to the heart of some of the problems with trains (and indeed other public transport) in Britain, the users.

 

I have to be careful as most users are just ordinary decent people using transport to get to where they need to be, and are well behaved and cause no problems.

 

However, at a certain point you do have to ask why trains on extremely intensive, heavily used services like the Yamanote line in Tokyo are immaculate and litter free throughout the day. Similarly anti-social behaviour at night (let alone during the day) is so rare it stands out.

 

I can criticise things about UK trains but I have every sympathy for train companies trying to keep on top of litter and damage to trains, dealing with graffiti, having to deal with anti-social behaviour to protect both their staff and passengers etc. Those are societal issues, not train company issues. When I used to commute using London Midland they did a very good job keeping the trains clean but it was an ongoing task and as soon as cleaners restored them back to good order litter, discarded newspapers, empty coffee cups etc would rapidly start accumulating.

 

Many ideas basically rely on society acting in a reasonable way and complying with instructions or being 'trained'. Something I found striking was that the barriers at Euston tended to work better at rush hour than at weekends. At rush hour most people know to have their tickets ready, to spread themselves out, get clear of the barriers etc whereas at weekends people get to the barrier then look for their tickets, congregate, stop on the other side of the barrier to put their ticket away etc. 

 

I have genuinely never seen anti-social behaviour or felt threatened on an MRT train despite using them late at night, ditto for a few other systems around the world in places like Japan, Korea and China. However, that's a huge question of why some societies feel safer than others and it needs to be considered in the context of how other societies balance individual rights/freedom against the needs of society which can be very different and might not be welcomed in the western world.

[St Enodoc]

27 minutes ago, david.hill64 said:

 

When platform edge doors were fitted retrospectively to the Bangkok Skytrain system the dwell times went up by about 2s per station. Over the length of the route it had a significant impact on the journey time. The signalling system has to determine that the train has stopped in the correct place (rather than just stopped), then has to release the train doors allowing them to open, has to release the platform doors allowing them to open, then the opening and closing sequences have to be checked to avoid trapping people between. (There is a horrible video from China on what happens when you don't do this). On departure the signalling system needs to be assured that both sets of doors are closed before permitting the train to start. Getting it right on a new build is far easier than applying retrospectively.

 

...and don't mention dynamic gap fillers (oops, I just did...)!